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Dopamine (DA) is suggested to improve perceptual and cognitive decisions by increasing the signal-to-noise ratio. Somewhat paradoxically, a hyperdopaminergia (arguably more accentuated in the right hemisphere) has also been implied in the genesis of unusual experiences such as hallucinations and paranormal thought. To test these opposing assumptions, we used two lateralized decision tasks, one with lexical (tapping left-hemisphere functions), the other with facial stimuli (tapping right-hemisphere functions). Participants were 40 healthy right-handed men, of whom 20 reported unusual, “paranormal” experiences and beliefs (“believers”), whereas the remaining participants were unexperienced and critical (“skeptics”). In a between-subject design, levodopa (200 mg) or placebo administration was balanced between belief groups (double-blind procedure). For each task and visual field, we calculated sensitivity (d′) and response tendency (criterion) derived from signal detection theory. Results showed the typical right visual field advantage for the lexical decision task and a higher d′ for verbal than facial stimuli. For the skeptics, d′ was lower in the levodopa than in the placebo group. Criterion analyses revealed that believers favored false alarms over misses, whereas skeptics displayed the opposite preference. Unexpectedly, under levodopa, these decision preferences were lower in both groups. We thus infer that levodopa (1) decreases sensitivity in perceptual–cognitive decisions, but only in skeptics, and (2) makes skeptics less and believers slightly more conservative. These results stand at odd to the common view that DA generally improves signal-to-noise ratios. Paranormal ideation seems an important personality dimension and should be assessed in investigations on the detection of signals in noise.
www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/a....21313
www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/a....21313
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 7:55 AMCould someone put Solari's post in layman's terms? Thanks. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 2:31 PMits a summary of a scientific study.
Whether the we includes him or not remains to be seen.
I question this with the timing of his other words and his style -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 3:01 PMI am here for scientific input on questions which interest me and not to stir up trouble. This is a juried study from a respected institution. It is very strange to see these people circling around me with suspicion. I am considered congenial and affable on all the tribes in which I am a member.
My interest here is purely scientific. The question of placebo, conditioned response, and anticipatory response has some bearing on my own interests which need not be brought to the table here, and which I will not allude to anymore since they seem to be so inflammatory. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 2:44 AMyou did not ask what people think of the study. You posted it alone as though you were one of the 'we' as in scientist or researchers.
Why don't you do as a reader asked and break it down with short sentneces defining what you mean by many terms and discussing the steps?
If you truly are interested in what people think about it you really can 'decipher' it. It is not that hard. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 8:03 AMFor someone not familiar with congnitive science trial terminology it is not at all "easy." For instance "favoring falsealarms over misses" is mysterious to the layman.
I have posted this just as the moderator posted his thread about
placebo effect. The paragraph is a synopsis of the trial written by the scientist. If people are too busy
to reply or find it uninteresting, so be it. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 8:57 AMSolari,
Are you frustrated or what emotion is that? -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 9:12 AMI have posted this thread on another "neuro" tribe. Perhaps someone there will find the topic more agreeable. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 9:53 AMThe topic is fine by my standards. It's just unfortunate that we can't see the actual article without a subscription. Based on the abstract, I can't make heads or tails of what they're saying. Does anyone know what measurement corresponds to the term "signal to noise ratio" in this study? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 10:10 AMWhoops! Your right. The rest of the study is only available by subsciption. Same with the Pubmed listing. I did find a response to it elsewhere, however, though I am not certain it's the same study, but it sounds similar and Brugger was on the trial design team:
"An opinion poll conducted in Canada in October 2002 discovered that 40 percent of Canadians believe that certain individuals have extrasensory perception that enable them to see into the future. The poll also revealed that 30 percent of the respondents had consulted with a medium, a psychic, or an astrologer.
In the United States, the National Science Foundation's biennial report on the state of science understanding, research, education, and investment conducted in April 2002 found that 70 percent of adults do not understand the scientific process. According to their poll, 60 percent of the respondents believed that there were individuals who possessed psychic powers or extrasensory perception.
Peter Brugger, a neurologist from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, has suggested that whether or not one believes in the paranormal depends entirely upon one's brain chemistry. As an experiment, Brugger gathered 20 individuals who believed in the paranormal and 20 who said that they were skeptical. The subjects were asked to distinguish real faces from scrambled images flashed briefly on a screen. The second phase consisted of the volunteers forming real words from made-up ones.
In his July 2002 report, Brugger stated that during the first stage of the experiment the individuals who believed in the paranormal were much more likely to see a face or a word when there was none. The skeptics were more likely to miss the real words and faces when they appeared on the screen.
Next, the volunteers were given L-dopa, a drug that increases levels of dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is a chemical utilized in the brain's system of reward and motivation and in deciding whether information received is relevant or irrelevant.
Under the influence of L-dopa, both groups had difficulty in distinguishing real faces and words from the scrambled ones—but interestingly, the skeptical individuals developed a greater ability to interpret the jumbled images as the real thing.
Brugger theorized that the improvement in the skeptics' performance suggests that paranormal thoughts are associated with high levels of dopamine in the brain. The dopamine allows people to see patterns and to become less skeptical regarding the perception of relationships between events."
Excerpted from:
www.unexplainedstuff.com/Myste...y.html
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:04 PM<Peter Brugger, a neurologist from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, has suggested that whether or not one believes in the paranormal depends entirely upon one's brain chemistry.>
This point is specious, The brain being a chemical computer is going to have a chemical explination for everthing that is does. You will find chemical interaction responsible for love, conservative behavior, liberal behavior, hate, eating an apple pie, enjoying a sunset. Basically anything the brain does has a chemically corresponding interaction or else it would be able to do it. So the bottom line is that finding a chemical explination for any behavior or experience does not prove or suggest that the experience is false. Using chemicals you can create all kinds of altered emotional and cognitive states that doesn't mean that those states don't also have real causes.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 11:22 AM -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 2:50 PMThank you Charles. That is pretty heavy going for the layperson. On thing that really jumped out at me was the assumed association between the "paranormal" "magical thinking" and schizophrenia. Is that a generic assumption for cognitive science? -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 3:12 PMSolari, I think there has been quite a bit of work done on links between cognitive disorders and magical thinking. Schizophrenia and schizotypal disorder (mild schizophrenia) definitely come up in this research, as well as temporal lobe epilepsy. Here's a long, but awesome talk on on evolution, schizophrenia, and religion from Stanford anthropologist Robert Sapolski. www.boingboing.net/2009/06/...on-s.html -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 3:33 PMI am fairly familiar with all that theory, but it was a bit of shock to see the field assuming that cognitive disorders and magical thinking always go hand in hand. It is true often enough for it to be a "marker" one looks for most of the time, but to just presume that association as a prime given strikes me as being simple minded. I don't want to argue the point here, but only wish to verify that assumption as being an "industry standard." -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 5:26 PM“I sometimes have a feeling of gaining or losing energy when people look at
me or touch me,” (keyed true) or “I have never had the
feeling that certain thoughts of mine really belonged to
someone else”
I see now that in order to evaluate the worth of this trial, we must have the questionnaire used to categorize the two groups as "believers" and "unbelievers." If the two questions above are any indication, the behavioral determinants may be kind of screwy. What is more bothersome is that these questions are being used to categorize behavior as "paranormal" when in fact they are better determinants of paranioa and shizophrenia. People believing the first statement could very well be paranoid but not "religious." People who have had paranormal experiences could very well not agree with the top statement and agree with the second. People who believe in paranormal happenings because of some experience they have had may have very logical explanations for those experiences that agree with conservative science and not the magical.
This is really almost a political problem here. The test is really distinguishing between paranoid tendencies and "normal" tendencies. The terms "paranormal" and "magical thinking" are being used way too loosely. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 3:29 AMwell, to divert a bit... some people have read The Secret and then openly discuss how they can make traffic lights turn green. This is absurd to me. However those who say this do not appear to be schizophrenic to me.
A link between magical thinking, schizophrnia and paranormal is a rather broad generalization, paranormal in itself is a broad term and fiels of study, topics etc with so many different understandings and beliefs that I dont believ ethat this link is very credible.
Re the questions from the study how many total questions> -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 6:50 AMYeah, the study finds some interesting data for sure, but the naming of the categories is somewhat reckless.
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:09 PM<between paranoid tendencies and "normal" tendencies. The terms "paranormal" and "magical thinking" are being used way too loosely.
>
There is also the issue of "normal thinking" one could recognize that the ability to percieve the paranormal is a distinguishing trait of Homo sapiens. The world sapien does mean wisdom which alludes to our unusual perceptions. Realistically the question becomes what causes some humans to lack this trait and think abnormally?
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:08 PMI think I wasn't clear. Let me try again. I think this is facinating stuff and would appreciate more information.
I challenge tribe members to decipher the results of the study that Solari posted so that a person of average intelligence can understand it. (You can do it, too, Solari.)
Thank you,
Anne
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:42 PMMy question would be does this trial suggest that the brains of the two groups were structurally different, and if so was that structural difference molded by differing habits of thinking, or were the structural differences in place first and the habit of thinking determined by the structure.
These questions may stray from the purview of the trial, but perhaps the cognos out there can align this trial with others to give us some likelihoods, or perhaps my irritatingly simplistic or off-base questions
may tickle them into lending us a hand. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 1:12 AMI don't have a strong background in Cog Sci (in fact I belong to this tribe to keep a balance with my own tendency to give credence to what many might call "Woo" thinking), but I suspect that the answer to your last question may lie in the term:
'Neuroplasticity".
(people can feel free to shoot me down, on any point, that's why I join science tribes, to learn)
It's similar to the fallacy of the "nature" vs "nurture" debate, where analysis of a single function on a mechanistic level, precludes perception of an interaction within a "living", or "interactive" process.
I have a personal belief (not to be misconstrued as being backed by any study that can be conducted, or verified) that the potential within a human population for the conditions that we call 'schizophrenia', or even 'OCD' has a dual function within it's expression.
The last data that I saw (again, not personally a trained cog sci, and the article WAS in the mid-90's) is that both conditions, along with others, are a result of not a single trait or gene, but rather a combination of several, coupled with environmental conditions that increase the probability that such genes would find a negative expression.
A population (or individual) lacking any of the key gene sequences for such expression, would be incapable of lateral/creative thinking (in the case of schizophrenia), or of focused intent (in the case of OCD).
In laymans' terms, if you're not a "little bit crazy", you're insane.
A problem that we face, as we try to construct/reconstruct the evolutionary forces upon what we find as a current state within our species, and as individuals, is that we no longer really have access to a control population of people who are culturally and socially working within the original parameters within which specific traits emerged within the human bio-cultural matrix.
I can't point to information to back up my own personal theories. There are no longer any 'pure' tribal organizations of emergent human societies.
We can't watch the cultural forms anymore, we have our own historical cultural biases interfering with direct observation.
Ie. that the occasional emergence of an individual with a higher than normal occurrence of tendencies towards a specific occurrence of what we currently call 'disorders', a cultural mechanism would typically be in place.
"Put the crazy kids in shaman school, if we don't have a shaman in our tribal grouping, send them off to another tribe to learn the symbolic structures and awareness of role within community, that is needed for them to be functional. When situations that involve non-linear reactions with the environment emerge, we'll talk to them as a last resort."
That kind of thing wouldn't operate within an English language context.
Meh, it's a recurrent problem within the Cogsci tribe, approaches to specific questions start to break down when the answers require multi-disciplinary approaches.
And I probably don't know what I'm writing about. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 8:24 AMWell, just to give an example of the wider world in which this study exists - my family's old ranch house is "haunted." I mean really, really haunted with kinetic poltergeist activity witnessed simultaneously by multiple witnesses. Not "subtle" activity either - things flying through the air, etc. Those who are not so scandalized by what they they have seen that they can even talk about it, are not what one could call "magical thinkers." They might be called "paranormal" thinkers now, but only because of what they have witnessed. Their world views have been deeply overturned by these experiences, but some of them have come to conclusions about the phenomena that do not exclude what we know about the laws of physics. This cognitive science trial would label these people "paranormal" or "magical thinkers" or suffering from "cognitive disorders," but that would be for most of these people probably incorrect. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 12:19 AM"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." - Sir Arthur Eddington
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:19 PM<Put the crazy kids in shaman school, if we don't have a shaman in our tribal grouping, send them off to another tribe to learn the symbolic structures and awareness of role within community, that is needed for them to be functional. When situations that involve non-linear reactions with the environment emerge, we'll talk to them as a last resort."
That kind of thing wouldn't operate within an English language context.
Meh, it's a recurrent problem within the Cogsci tribe, approaches to specific questions start to break down when the answers require multi-disciplinary approaches.
And I probably don't know what I'm writing about.
>
I think you made some good points, one thing to consider is that magical thinking evolved because it has real life application that there is magic that needs to be understood and understanding it offers a genuine advantage. For example most of our medicines originate from herbal remedies that were not discovered through a scientific method but a magical one. The ability to determine the nature of plant and it's potential interaction was real magic and was applied by our ancestors. What comes to mind is the very chemically complex zombie powder from Haiti that puts a person in a temporary state of virtual death and also damages the frontal lobe in such away as to remove the persons will. Amazing stuff with several active ingredients that were not known to modern science before being discovered in this magically derived drug. Magical thinking has alsohelped us to avoid disease and other such things before we had a scientific understanding of them, for example it is a tradition of Judaism to consider blood and sperm to be unclean spiritually require anyone with contact with it to be ritually cleaned and isolated for a time. Today we understand the that blood and sperm can carry diseases, but then they only knew this through magical thinking. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 4:23 PMJohn, are the examples you give really examples of magical thinking or just of induction? There may be a case to be made for the efficacy of magical thinking; perhaps it's a way to trigger the placebo effect and get healing action out of substances that have no inherent "healing properties." But with respect to say, the ancients' knowledge bodily fluids, that could come from observing that people whose line of work or frequent activities involve bodily fluids, tend to get sick more often than other people. Since they didn't have the concepts like germs, bacteria, viruses, and so on, they may have come up with a religious interpretation after the fact, for the inductions they were making based on observation.
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 10:05 AMThat is an interesting study .
Concpetual unpacking ought to be done to find out what its ramifications are ... -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 6:14 PMThe magical thinking vs scientific thinking breaks down a bit when applied to older knowledge.
Although many of the rituals surrounding the application of various medicinal substances, etc, or how the terms were couched for specific prohibitions, for the most part the actual active concepts behind such practices came from trial and error, over the course of many generations.
In the case of some of the ritualistic aspects surrounding use of plants, such as the entheogenic substances used in Central and South America (Salvia Divinorum, or Ayhuasca, to name just two), the rituals were specifically oriented towards the psychological effects of said substances, and many of the taboos/strictures regarding diet and other practices are examples of relatively advanced (if specialized) biochemistry.
As far as use of integrated non-verbal symbol structures in an english speaking context, saying that there is an inherent incompatibility may be woefully inaccurate. Regardless of the native language of any individual, symbolic functioning by it's nature engages portions of the brain and consciousness that are still operative even in the modern day world.
Jung's work may be slightly dated, but arguably still has weight whether in German or English.
I know that for myself, I am an extremely Anglo-cized individual, however, while much of my interactions with objective reality are rendered through linear english, being able to use broader sweeps of associative or visually based thought, is often of great use.
And I don't even have to be high, or "New Age" to do so. -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 6:19 PMAddenendum:
Medicine on it's own, without the use of what we often call "the placebo" effect, is not as efficient as active medicine with the "placebo" effect.
We may have actually lost a valuable tool in the translation of ritualized socio-culturally significant health practices, to the modern "just take the pill" paradigm.
Really, given the proven complexity of how our bodies and minds actually inter-relate, doesn't it seem kind of silly to reduce everything to a basic mechanistic basis?
In other words, perhaps the methodology of science may interfere with the proper application of the knowledge gained from that same method? -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 6:05 AMoutrunner - The placebo effect doesn't work on everyone - like hypnosis some people seem totally immune to it - and when it does work it's for conditions that are highly subjective and experiential in nature (depression, chronic pain). In fact, I suspect it'll be discovered that those who are highly suggestible to hypnosis are also the most reactive/responsive to placebo treatments. Placebo effect is totally linked in to the "just take a pill" mentality since it's just taking a pill or medicine! Or it's a dramatic procedure (the bigger the instrument, the bigger the placebo effect.) Medicine is practiced quite differently than science and the placebo effect is evoked in medicine by doctors when appropriate (and the patient needs a pill or performance rather than accepting a less "medical" intervention such as CBT). For some people, making an environment very "medical" or "sciency" can have a placebo effect, it's one reason why pseudoscience exists and so many "alternative" practitioners pretend they're practicing science and normal medicine.
It's funny that you say "Medicine on it's own, without the use of what we often call "the placebo" effect, is not as efficient as active medicine with the "placebo" effect." because you're actually advocating for "taking a pill" and not CBT or psychotherapy alone, or dietary changes alone or any other non-pharmaceutical (but still medical) interventions. So, sure, some people need extra hand waving and dramatic actions to feel as if they're being "treated" - or to feel as if some magic is making the changes for them - but many people don't (perhaps because they don't have the same emotional need that the placebo effect feeds into or off of). -
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Re: Dopamine, Paranormal Belief, and the Detection of Meaningful Stimuli
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 9:03 AMThe influence of social support on pain perception...
www.sciencedaily.com/release...1037.htm
It's worth noting that the placebo effect isn't all sweetness and light, it can also be used for malicious purposes or have harmful consequences. It's called a "nocebo effect". When people expect negative consequences or someone places a "curse" on someone or an authority figure tells someone they're possessed, will die, etc(be it a doctor, shaman or whoever is an authority figure in a particular situation), beliefs can just as easily create a negative/harmful effect as they can a positive/helpful effect. We're social animals so our social environment tends to have quite an influence on our sense of wellbeing and how we care for ourselves (and our beliefs). One can easily see how people prone to magical thinking and 'healers" that manipulate people through the nobebo/placebo effect and their beliefs can both create a feeling of illness and some symptoms and then "cure" the nocebo effectg with a placebo effect in susceptible people.
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Dopamine Forecasting
Sun, November 15, 2009 - 6:31 PMJonah Lehrer's blog mentions some work on dopamine, which seems to indicate that it fires not in the
presence of, but in anticipation of, rewards.
scienceblogs.com/cortex/20...castin.php