beautiful curvaceous spine

topic posted Sat, January 14, 2006 - 12:36 AM by  Darshan
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On another tribe someone was talking about the importance of maintaining the curve of the lumbar spine/low back. Mentioning that injury can be caused by too much tucking under of the pelvis discouraging the natural curvature. What a subtle balance, and so different for every body, is that snaking map of curves the spine. In my teaching and even just my self talk, I do offer reminders to lift the navel up and in because I believe in the energy that comes from that engagement of the core. Also, I have seen the tendency for time to curve the lumbar spine deeper and weaken the lower abs, and I try to offset that. Finally, it seems like most dancers lean towards settling into swayback in forgetfulness, and I know this can compromise the wellness and balance of the spinal system. I'm wondering about your spine: which way do you curve when you get tired or forget? I want to know if this feeling I have is founded, that more dancers err to the increased curve. In any case, we need to find the place where our own spinal system feels strong, honoring our natural curve, and strengthen from there.
posted by:
Darshan
New York City
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  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Sat, January 14, 2006 - 7:03 AM
    I definitely end up in a swayback position when I'm tired or forgetful, but I have really been focusing on keeping my tuck for about a year now. The only thing I really worry about with my lower back is doing several backbends and laybacks.
    This is a particularly important issue to me, as my pelvis is rotated back and my tailbone was broken many years ago. Having a tucked pelvis was especially hard at first, but now it is pretty effortless unless I am tired.

    I think your feeling about dancers and their spines is founded. I can always tell who let go of that balanced tuck after a performance; they are massaging their lower backs and touching their toes to stretch. I've been that dancer before, I know. : )
  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Sat, January 14, 2006 - 7:55 PM
    Swayback for me, definitely. But then I wonder about overcorrecting for that when I remember to tuck. It's just so hard to tell. That's why I'm rabid about my core exercises. Almost all gyms in NOLA have not reopened, so I'm kinda ashamed to say, I watch FitTv and do Pilates or yoga or aerobics first, then get my butt kicked with Gilad in the mornings. It helps me keep my core up. I'm thinking as long as I have a strong core, only the extreme or forgetful stuff will hurt me.

    But I could be wrong about that....
    • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

      Thu, February 2, 2006 - 11:25 PM
      so I'm kinda ashamed to say, I watch FitTv and do Pilates or yoga or aerobics first, then get my butt kicked with Gilad in the mornings.
      #############
      Nothin' wrong with FitTV!! OR GILAD!!!!!!! =0)
  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Sun, February 5, 2006 - 5:44 AM
    I did ballet pretty intensively as a kid, and even though the ballet tuck comes from the glutes, the abdominal tuck feels natural and comfortable to me. I also have two herniated disks in my lower back, so if I ever start to lose it, they let me know.

    I think maintaining my chestlift is harder for me, though it's getting better now that I'm a teacher and drill it so much every week.
  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Thu, March 2, 2006 - 5:10 AM
    I know this an older post, but since I'm here...

    Darshan, Thank you so much for addressing this. I emphasize the abdominal tension constantly when I teach...and to myself, too. So many teachers just state the usual, "tuck your glutes under" philosophy with little anatomical training or knowledge. What then seems to end up happening is that as soon as the student begins to move, the "butt tucked based alignment" comes undone with no other options to maintain the back protection.

    It's just really nice to hear a more individual, natural body friendly technique getting more notice.

    Thanks again!
    • Might as well relight this thread then!
      Natalie mentioned the chestlift and that brings up an exciting dynamic--that between the abdominal pelvic tuck and the proudly lifted chest. It can take a lot of strength and concentration to do them both, plus honor your breath and then move! Talk about layering! I can imagine an entire class dedicated to engaging one, then the other, alternately--because it takes a bit of work to find the place where these two seemingly antagonistic actions work complementarily together, and the system that gets set up therein can create such a radiant dance energy. Often when we actively lift the chest, at first the pelvis wants to curve back. So to do both is a stretching and flexing at the same time. Even more subtle is finding that place where the chest is utterly lifted but the upper back is also expanded, lower ribs pulling in... and relaaax the hip flexors... whew! Posture alone can be a workout! It ain't easy being a dancer!
      • This is actually really good for me to review because I start teaching in a week. I want to explain that you never want to "collapse" A) in your abdomen when you over tuck and B) in your chest if you lose a drop.

        My plan is to start with the tail bone tuck and discuss not engaging your abs so that you do have room to move and shake your gluts. They are a huge muscle group and if you have no mobility in them you will never gain a lot of range of motion or even hip flexibility. I noticed that once I stopped using the gluts to get into posture I suddenly had a much nicer taxeem because I was not holding it in by clenching the butt cheeks.

        Also I am planning on having students make the largest possible chest lift while still tucking and then softening that by about 20-25% so that they have somewhere to go when they have chest lifts, chest rotations, and torso rotations to move. Maintaining that high of a lift is really strenuous and gives you nowhere to go for those accents.

        Most of my teachers took the time to explain why these were important for the dance style as well as body alignment and also that there was more for the posture. I've actually found that my daily posture improved and I almost "lost" my chest lift because I assumed that position more naturally. Also, these posture themes make it a lot easier to "separate" your upper and lower body while dancing and articulate them independently. I think of it as the magician trick when the girl is cut in half, good posture gives you that option.
        • It is great to read these posts. I think for most people it is most natural to relax into a forward pelvic tilt, increasing the curve in the lower back. That certainly is how it is for me.

          And yes, it does take a lot of concentration to keep the abdominally-held pelvic tuck and to lift the chest. I have taken about ten lessons in ATS and that is the one thing I have to be very present to or I lose it.

          I love the way you are approaching teaching the chest lifts, Kate.

          The rectus abdominus, which runs from ribs to pelvis, keeps the tuck. And the transverse abdominus is the one that encircles the core like a girdle to protect the spine, and pulls IN your belly--this one is the one that is most important for the health of your spine. Last but not least are the obliques, which give us those amazing shimmies and other fun moves!
          • I'm reviving this post again, since I just found this tribe. (Hi everyone!)

            I actually go to far in the other direction with the tuck. I did a bit of modelling some time ago, as well as a little of ballet. Both things had me constantly tucking. And I never had an arch in my back to begin with. So I end up limiting my ability to move (like those taxims are stiff unless I consciously UNtuck.) I've never met another dancer with this issue. I've only just discovered that the tuck should come from the abs instead of the glutes, which seems to be helping a bit, when I can remember to do it.

            As for the upper half, I have the WORST time remembering to keep my chest lifted and shoulders back. Why, oh WHY, did I retain the tuck but not the upper body posture? One of my teachers told me last night that when I lift my chest, I tend to lean back. I had no idea I was doing this! It's like I'm feeling off balance because I'm not in my usual slump, or something. Can any of you give any suggestions on how to find the center line?
  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Wed, August 20, 2008 - 5:37 PM
    Ha! Looks like I will revive this thread at least one more time. :)

    Hello, everyone. I wanted to share a visual that has been very handy for me in maintaining a long, open spine, without encouraging over-tucking. It is my own spin off something I heard in a workshop, where the teacher talked about having a "kickstand". For me, it is a tiger tail.

    Imagine a long, heavy tiger's tail extending from your sacrum (tailbone.) Now, if you have a big, heavy tiger tail, you can't walk around with your booty up in the air! The tail's weight pulls your tailbone down, and gives a nice open length to your spine.

    For me, personally, this is easier to maintain this idea than "tuck in your glutes and suck in your tummy". For one, the tuck & suck sounds like WORK and sets me up to feel exhausted. But it also gives me something to visualize stretching my spine to the ground, which feels rooted and stable, without over-contracting the abs.

    Hope others find this helpful!
  • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

    Sat, August 23, 2008 - 1:13 AM
    Lifting the navel up and in is such a perfect way to describe the higher path to good posture. You have a knack for phrasing Darshan.

    I like the "tiger's tail" visualization also Magdalene.
    • Re: beautiful curvaceous spine

      Sat, August 23, 2008 - 4:11 PM
      As to feeling like you are leaning back when lifting the chest, to respond to Nicole (after many months! what happened?!), most of us could stand to not just tip the ribcage upward but also actively lift Forward, like we are offering something. Can I say, offerfing one's heart to the midnight moon? Think of taking (rather, actually take--why not?) a huge deep breath, filling the front and back and sides of the ribcage to full expansion. Then as you exhale, leave it there! At first it may feel unnatural, but try once in a while and what needs to stay will stay. That plus a gently engaged musculature between the lower shoulder blades keeping the shoulder-chest junction open, and keeping that navel pulling up and in as we discussed... ;)

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