OK. I will start it!
Let us discuss, here, *ALL* of the Serpent Goddesses. Cretan, Greek, Indian, Native American, Norse..... and more!
The rules of the game are simple: tell us how YOUR Goddess is related to the Serpentine Mysteries.
Here's something to get you started:
www.sciencedaily.com/release...1347.htm
Amma Naga
Let us discuss, here, *ALL* of the Serpent Goddesses. Cretan, Greek, Indian, Native American, Norse..... and more!
The rules of the game are simple: tell us how YOUR Goddess is related to the Serpentine Mysteries.
Here's something to get you started:
www.sciencedaily.com/release...1347.htm
Amma Naga
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Cincinnati
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 3:49 PMLilith has been connected with the serpent in the "Garden of Eden" with Adam & Eve, for better and/or worse ~ there are many interpretations available.....
my favorite interpretation is that Lilith, like the serpent, hints at deeper knowledge & wisdom than one can find in surface readings ~ that there is more, possibly hidden, maybe just obscured, available to those who wish to go farther. The commonly known origin stories have a sub-text that may be shocking to some, but also healing to those who cannot be satisfied with the mainstream interpretations available.
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 4:05 PMthere is always Manasa!
I found that the Manasa entry on wikipedia is totally incomplete too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasa ... how am I gonna have time for Sadhana, Sanskrit homework, editing the Wikipedia entries and reading, not to mention spending time with my SO and playing music?
<--open to genius grants and/or sugar mamas -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 5:39 PMdid someone say they need a sugar Ma ; ) -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 5:49 PMOn a more serious note, this link from Max Dashu was posted here awhile back, it's got some great information on "Sibillia", the "Snake-Women of the Grotto", and other little known folkloric ancestral deities and chthonic goddesses:
www.suppressedhistories.net/secr....html
"Under the earth there exists a delicious place,
the dwelling of witches, where all things abound,
especially milk and honey, which run in abundant rivers."
~~ Basque tradition from Ataún -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:27 AMVery cool. Fascinating information I was unaware of.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 7:24 PM -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Thu, January 18, 2007 - 3:49 AMHere are some Serpent Goddesses in the forms that they have influenced my own cosmology:
Manasa:
accessnewage.com/articles/.../NATH2.HTM
I hate that is is published on something called "newageaccess" cuz it is far from "New Age." It is a scholarly work on the deep meaning of the cosmic force called Manasa.
Then.....
Two hours or so from my homeis Serpent Mound:
www.ohiohistory.com/places/serpent/
Very strange all of the stories that are told by folks trying to say what She meant to the primitives who built Her. The funniest is that THIS is the Garden of Eden. (Ohio??? Say What???) And she appeared to remind us of the evil snake that tempted eve. Bwahahahaaaa....
To me, she is clearly a fertility Goddess, bringing forth an egg. Perhaps the Universe? Life?? Native Americans still hold Solstice ritual to Her, tho noone seems to know Her ancient purpose. She is aligned with the Sun at Summer Solstice. From Wikipedia:
[The Serpent mound is the largest effigy mound in the world. While there are several burial mounds around the Serpent mound site, the Serpent itself does not contain any human remains and wasn't constructed for burial purposes. The Cherokee relate the legend of the Uktena, a large serpent with supernatural appearance and power. The question raised regarding such Indian legend asks whether the ancient native people actually created very large totemic shrines based upon platforms made of earth and stone. Subsequent changes in the form of inheriting cultures or war could conceiveably have deconstructed such a marvelous effigy, leaving merely its platform.]
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Thu, January 18, 2007 - 12:31 PMI went to Serpant Mound while touring colleges.....saw a sign and pulled off the road.
I had quite a profound experience there.
I recommend a visit if anyone is ever in Ohio. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Thu, January 18, 2007 - 6:29 PMYes. I agree. The energy is palpable at Her mound.
All of this is making me want to go back and visit! I think I will plan my excursion for Spring Equinox. Maybe even spend a few days there. I could really use a retreat of my own....
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:33 AMCome to Nippur. You can stay in Serpent Tell (as in "Serpent Mound", even though "Tell" is usually spelled "Tel" and goes in the front as in Tel Aviv). Our Ostara festival begins the following day with the weekend kickin. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:58 AMI cannot wait to visit Serpent tell! I spoke with WyldFyre about the space you have, Brent, and she says it is wonderful.
Our visit to your area may be the highlight of Summer for me.... even beyond Starwood. <wink>
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:18 PMI've been wanting to go to the snake mound for years...but it hasn't been in my path yet.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Thu, January 18, 2007 - 9:24 PMOooooh - I was hoping someone would mention Serpent Mound. I have been there twice and I really need to go back. On the far end of the park - past the mound, there are some great trails, too. One trail goes past a huge cave. The whole place resonates with magic and intelligence. I think the people who created that place knew what they were doing!
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:47 AMGreat Link!
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:10 AMThere is not a wealth of information about the Snake Goddess in Crete, other than the fact of numerous statuettes depicting same from the Temple Repositories at Knossos. There is a Goddess at Thera with a snake in her hair. Raised Arm Goddesses from shrines in the Final Palace and postpalatial periods, were found in association with "Snake Tubes", cylindrical vessels with multiple loop handles. Some of the Snake tubes were decorated with "horns of consecration". Not sure about the connection with the Bull Cults there, which also have ancient religous links, see for eg. Catalhoyuk culture 6000 - 7000 BC (Great book: The Goddess and the Bull). The discovery of the Snake Goddesses led Arthur Evans to conclude that many parts of the Palace had a sacred nature and that the Minoan religion had at its center and core a female deity. If you look at statuettes on some of the other islands, such as Cyprus, some of the figurines are feminine in appearance, have snake like features and date to 6000 BC. Other than looking for metaphors ("Metaphors Be with You") from Greek culture for clues to signify the reign of the Serpent Goddess, or Judaic references to the serpent in the garden with Eve or Lilith, I am unaware of a really good source about the religion and role of the Snake Goddess in Minoan times. Any thoughts on sources? -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:33 AM"There is not a wealth of information about the Snake Goddess in Crete, other than the fact of numerous statuettes depicting same from the Temple Repositories at Knossos."
Brent brings up an excellent point. It seems we have little to go on when we try to "reconstruct" a goddess cult of the kind that might have existed around the Serpents in Crete. The same can be said for the Hopewell Indians in Ohio.
Fact is... folks did not sign their "names" to these artworks. And they did not leave writings to tell us what they meant. We have to draw most of what we know from History..... which is quite proliferative in Ancient Greece and Rome. Egypt too.... from the heiroglyphics.
In order for a culture to WANT to create a history... there must be a sense of "I" and of "ownership." In direct contrast would be the culture with only a sense of "we" and of shared work/ community. I hate to say one is "masculine" and the other 'feminine." Cuz that is an oversimplification. BUT... this dichotomy does explain, in large part... why the story of Medusa has withstood the test of time in a much more powerful way than has the Minoan Goddess.
When we go back to reclaim the Minoan Snake Goddess.... we must, in fact, tell ourselves a story. The story is a reconstruction based on... I hate to say this.... "archetypes." In other words, the story tells us about the impact that the image has on our psyches. We take this psychospiritual reaction (if you will) into account as we re-create, or re-claim the myth. That is how this, quite scholarly, art of feminist re-claimation works.
There may be one exception to this... but I am not sure. That would be the worship of Ma Kali in India. Even that, however, has been subverted by the god worshipping cults there. So... we can't know, for sure, how accurate our understanding of Her is today. But... again.... to look at Her image is to have an experience. From there we tell the story of what she means..... as a Living Goddess in the year 2007.
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 2:58 PMAmma wrote: "When we go back to reclaim the Minoan Snake Goddess.... we must, in fact, tell ourselves a story. The story is a reconstruction based on... I hate to say this.... "archetypes." In other words, the story tells us about the impact that the image has on our psyches. We take this psychospiritual reaction (if you will) into account as we re-create, or re-claim the myth. That is how this, quite scholarly, art of feminist re-claimation works."
Well, you are describing "one way", typically well known to those that would describe themselves as "Reconstructionists" and "Wiccans", who are an eclectic group or religion that has been known to take the bits and pieces of an ancient practice or tradition that suits them and "reclaim" it for themselves, sometimes without much thought or understanding of the actual ancient practices. Unfortunately many feminist groups have simply been lumped into this category for better or worse because they have chosen to weave Jungian terminology into their practices of "reclaiming" such Goddesses. This is especially problematic from the standpoint of ancient traditions such as Hinduism and its many branches, including Shaktism, which are simply NOT scholarly, nor psychological or psychospiritual for that matter, and frown upon the Western way of fragmenting their ancient practices that have existed for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years ...
But they are of course not the only ancient, living or ancestral traditions which have long standing practices that include worship of a Living Goddess, like Ma Kali. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:06 PM>> But they are of course not the only ancient, living or ancestral traditions which have long standing practices that include worship of a Living Goddess, like Ma Kali. <<
This is one of the things that so attracts me to Kali. Her worship is well established, widespread and unquestionably ancient. I don't have to buy into anyone's pet theory in order to consider myself Her devotee. I actually appreciate a lot of Jung's work - but at the same time I always feel like I have to keep him at arm's distance. He and his "followers" are, maybe, trying to do something that is, maybe, going in the right general direction and that might, or might not, work out. But meanwhile we have real, solid traditions that transcend the theories of individuals, and the passing fads of human cultures - like the worship of Kali. I get the impression that a devotee of Kali, as a general rule, feels secure in his or her relationship with the Goddess, and doesn't worry too much about other people who have a different kind of relationship or maybe different "theories" about Her. But modern day Pagans (which I consider myself to be) are so sectarian because we are, to a great extent justifiably, insecure and unsure about our "traditions". One of the reasons why I cling to the idea of preserving or reviving Pagan traditions "of the West" is just because that's the kind of person I am - I am stubborn and if someone says "we killed all the Pagans" - my reflexive response is "well as long as I'm standing here you haven't!" But I still feel the need to seek out those traditions of the Goddess that no one can question, like that of Kali.
I love the fact that She has preserved these traditions that >> are simply NOT scholarly, nor psychological or psychospiritual for that matter, and frown upon the Western way of fragmenting their ancient practices that have existed for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years ... << -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 4:09 PM"no assembly required"
JAI MA
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:39 PM"One of the reasons why I cling to the idea of preserving or reviving Pagan traditions "of the West" is just because that's the kind of person I am - I am stubborn and if someone says "we killed all the Pagans" - my reflexive response is "well as long as I'm standing here you haven't!"
Me too, Curt. And not only because I want to prove a point about pagans in the west... but because I care about the all pervasive Goddess. The one that transcends time and culture.
"But I still feel the need to seek out those traditions of the Goddess that no one can question, like that of Kali."
Ditto here too! Kali Ma is a wonderful Dark Ma. Perhaps "no assembly is required" and perhaps some is.... but, in any case She is a particular Goddess from a particular geography. Parts of who She is will transcend other cultures. But... not all will.
Adya.... just to be clear.... I am not wiccan. Just a plain old witch. What I know about Dark Ma I know by experience. I mention Jung because, in some ways, his views confirm what I know by experience.
I have not, in fact, found ancestral goddesses to be angry and vindictive or dangerous .... unless I look for that in them. Many people have told me to be cautious.... but I have found them to mostly be of the power tripping sort who desire to keep the mysteries for themselves. Can you (or anyone) give an example where you angered an ancestral goddess? A personal experience? I'd like to hear what that is like.... so I can be on alert for it.
Thus far, all of the Dark Mothers I have worked with have been ferociously loving and protective of their daughters who remember.
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:47 PM"I have not, in fact, found ancestral goddesses to be angry and vindictive or dangerous .... "
sumpin from my blog:
"I found God and it looks like something that'll rip your fucking head off and drink the blood like shotgunning a beer. "
the draining hurts a bit.... -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 5:59 PMWow. Those are some gods you are messin with, Saul! But, I bet they won't rip your face off.... even tho they may look scary.
Seriously, tho... my medicine woman taught me this: Men often need a Sundance or two to experience what women get to do every month..... So, who knows... maybe they will?
Horrors! Horrors I say.
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:21 PM> I found God and it looks like something that'll rip your fucking head off and drink the blood like shotgunning a beer.
*****
That's my Girl!
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:06 PM>>"Adya.... just to be clear.... I am not wiccan. Just a plain old witch. What I know about Dark Ma I know by experience. I mention Jung because, in some ways, his views confirm what I know by experience."
I must honestly say that I do find it hard to understand where you are coming from here Amma ... probably just because my experiences have just been very different from yours I guess and and your way of speaking or relating to Jung honestly sounds like another language to me... I'm not trying to be difficult here in the least, and I believe that people can do whatever they like, and choices abound ... but there are many dangers for the magickal practitioner or witch as I'm sure you are aware ... and that is one of the reasons this tribe exists, I see it as a free service to help others navigate the Otherworlds, which I have much experience in, but prefer not to toot my horn too loudly, cause I'm not interested in being a "power tripper"... though since I'm initiated into a living tradition there are some things I'm not at liberty to speak of.
But the simple truth of it comes down to working with the ancient spirits/deities of sacred places or Land, and the deities or spirits that dwell within these places, and their respective Goddesses directly, these are the "vehicle" as is the living tradition..they guide us in the Otherworlds..they give us the wisdom to know how, and knowledge, myth and stories become secondary when immersed in such work..
blessings,
adya
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:20 PMI understand Adya. There are things I may not speak of either. From both of the traditions into which I have accepted initiation. But, fact is... I don't think I needed either one of them to meet Ma. And if you asked me "how does one meet Ma?" I wouldn't even think of them. Not at first, anyway.
She made her first appearances to me when I was a child. Later She held me through my three home births. After that, the "lineage initiations" were anticlimactic.
I came to realize that She is Within.... and once I knew Her I could see Her everywhere.
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:30 PM>>That's my Girl!
:) yep.
>>Those are some gods you are messin with, Saul! But, I bet they won't rip your face off.... even tho they may look scary.
oh, let's certainly hope They do! otherwise I'm wasting my time! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:35 PM"oh, let's certainly hope They do! otherwise I'm wasting my time!"
Saul, if that is what you are hopin for I am sure they can deliver!
Once the Horrors! are over... please report back to us, your chicken legged homies....
Amma -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:40 PM> Once the Horrors! are over... please report back to us
*****
When someone asks me to describe Kali, the Mahashakti, I tell them to imagine a supermassive black-hole at the center of a huge galaxy. I have them visualize an entire star system with a number of inhabited planets getting sucked in like soap bubbles around a bathtub drain. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:42 PM>>When someone asks me to describe Kali, the Mahashakti, I tell them to imagine a supermassive black-hole at the center of a huge galaxy. I have them visualize an entire star system with a number of inhabited planets getting sucked in like soap bubbles around a bathtub drain.
now imagine that in the center of what you think of as your self.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 7:04 PM> now imagine that in the center of what you think of as your self.
*****
You can't, and that's the beauty of it.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 3:57 AM"When someone asks me to describe Kali, the Mahashakti, I tell them to imagine a supermassive black-hole at the center of a huge galaxy. I have them visualize an entire star system with a number of inhabited planets getting sucked in like soap bubbles around a bathtub drain."
Good description, Jody. But... I am really asking for a description of what it's like to have one's face ripped off...
That I have not experienced.... from Kali Ma, or any of Her sisters.
I shall be waiting with the Dark Serpent Baba Yaga Ma.... in this chicken legged hut called home.
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 11:43 AMit's quite impressive, I used to work in an OR. I listen to a lot of like mid 90's hip hop these days (really beautiful stuff came out of new york, productionwise - L.E.S., Primo, Pete Rock...) so when I hear "peel yo cap back" I have a more vivid picture in my mind than most people.
oh, but you meant what I said.
read: ego, preconceptions, false ideas about the Self.
but there's a reason that metaphor is so gruesome. sign up for the hard, quick process and you get the ride you stood in line for. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 2:49 PM>>>read: ego, preconceptions, false ideas about the Self.
yep, this is what Ma takes from us, She cuts incisively all which we do not need, the darkness of ignorance and false appearances of the personality. She dissolves the ego in this way to reveal the true Self...this is Her prime objective and when one goes seeking Her they should expect that this is what She will do.. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sun, January 21, 2007 - 4:13 AM"She dissolves the ego in this way to reveal the true Self...this is Her prime objective and when one goes seeking Her they should expect that this is what She will do.."
I like that imagery too. "Dissolve" sounds so much more like the Ma I know.
But... hey, the goddess has 10, 000 names. And faces. We can each have our own experience. I am not trying to invalidate "ripping and draining."
Amma
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 4:11 PM> That I have not experienced.... from Kali Ma, or any of Her sisters.
*****
Ma with sisters? Not for this shakta. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 7:31 PM>>Ma with sisters? Not for this shakta.
it's teeming with her offspring, tho. -
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 7:33 PM> it's teeming with her offspring, tho.
*****
One Ma... many, many wombs.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:41 PMmany have gone before, many will go after.
that's Tantra for ya.
but even in the smashan there's dogs who wanna cuddle ya, metaphorically and literally.
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Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 6:58 PM>> "I came to realize that She is Within.... and once I knew Her I could see Her everywhere."
now, it sounds like you are speaking more like a Bhakta : )
seeing Ma as everything as everyone - the One who creates, sustains and destroys - so there is nothing else, no male aspects or god...
Sakti speaks Shiva listens...they are One.
My ishtadevi is Ma Kali, so I see things the same and there are no separate genders or other polarities involved..
beloved and loved are One! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: New Thread on Serpent Goddesses
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 7:28 PMfire and the power to burn :)
you know, sometimes I get this funny feeling that I am an orthodox heretic....
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