Have any of you ever come across a reference to a Goddess with male body parts? I have vauge memory of reading about one, perhaps in India or another eastern faith? Any help with this would be great, thanks.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 11:16 AMअर्धनारीश्वर Ardhanārīśvara is a form of Siva and Sakti that is both genders.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 11:23 AMIn Hinduism, Ardhanari (sa. अर्धनारी Ardhanārī) or Ardhanarishvara (sa. अर्धनारीश्वर Ardhanārīśvara), is an androgynous deity composed of Shiva and his consort Shakti, representing the synthesis of masculine and feminine energies.
Some say it is Parvati and Shiva.
But I think it goes back BEFORE the Androgynous Deity got split into 2!
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 11:25 AMSorry, Saul...I didn't see your post when I posted mine! :-) We did an "androgynous" or "gyndrogynous" post! :-)
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 3:16 PMI hope to see more information on this.
I remember seeing an interview with a woman (very beautiful!!) who was born with all sexual parts.
She was thankful that her parents did not choose to remove anything or to force her in a particular direction. She was from the mid east I believe. I remember her associating with a particular goddess - I wish I could remember it. I know she does modeling/ I am sure much of it is considered pornographic.
Perhaps searching for modern such humans, while rare, could lead you to more information. She was rare to have all. Some men have ovaries for example. So there are all kinds of variations among us.
Good luck! -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 3:22 PMif my children are born into the Third Sex, we ain't "fixing" them. they can decide to do whatever they want when they grow up, but I'm fully prepared to teach them that they are beautiful however the Universe made them. -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 4:07 PMan interesting question that came to mind for me from this discussion...
Is Ardhanārīśvara or the deity form that represents the union of Siva and Sakti the same as someone who is born as a hermaphrodite, or a human having both sexual organs?
what do ya think?
does anyone have any good images of Ardhanārīśvara for the tribe album...?
pleaze upload some ;) -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 10:19 PMinterestin gsite from a LGBTQ perspective: www.galva108.org/festivals.html -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 2:43 AMAnd, BTW, the author's (Amara Das Wilhelm) book *Tritiya Prakriti* is very worth while. Its excellent. Not only does he go into great depth with regard to the third gender in Vedic culture, but provides comparison with virtually every other culture on the planet. Amazing amount of research went into it.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 1:23 PManother pov...I've witnessed something similar when a Priest invokes the Goddess, becomes Her... a beautiful thing to behold...
* * *
When the Priest becomes a Lady
by KAVITHA KALYAN
"We walked into the temple, the thick stone walls beat out the heat. The cool dark interiors were most welcoming for any tired traveler seeking the blessings of the Lord. Its a small temple but here we witnessed tradition in full swing. It was the time for the Uchyakala puja, at the stroke of 12.00pm
It was not a Cinderella we saw, but quite something else. Having completed the worship and abhishekam of the Mother goddess at the Amman shrine, a priest came dressed in a maroon silk saree with rudraksha beads round his neck. Two beaded necklaces hung down from a well covered chest and a benign look on his face made him look very close to the Goddess Herself.
He walked in gracefully, his calm face adding to the charm. He wore a crown on his head, a brilliant maroon velveted crown with semi precious stones depicting Lord Shiva Jambukeshwara on it. He carried a pot with water almost making it appear like Parvati, the consort of the Lord who had descended to bathe Him with her very hands. He looked divine, straight out of the 11th century walking into the temple today.
The thick wooden doors creaked open, and he slipped through while the crowd savored the spectacle they had just witnessed. We waited for a few moments more, understanding why he was dressed that way when the doors were thrown open to all.
The very incarnate of the Goddess who had bathed the Lord now held the flame up to Him. The Arti started and each lamp with a million tiny flames was served up in circular motion to the Lord who stayed behind a grill window. The fire rose into the air, the smoke clouding the interiors, a figure raised his hands, adorned with a crown on his head that was taken straight out of Krishnadeva Raya's closet. I wondered what else there was hidden within these small towns that boast more of our living culture than the cities.
Minutes after the flames rose, and the bells rang, the crowd was allowed to visit the sacred shrine of the Lord representing water. We all moved in, taking our respective queues but no where could we set eyes on that Goddess again. She was just gone. " -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 1:15 AMBy coincidence (or is it? ;) ), I had just read the following in the Wikepedia article of Shaktism:
"In its social interactions, Tantra is 'free from all sorts of caste and patriarchal prejudices. A woman or a shudra is entitled to function in the role of [guru]. All women are regarded as manifestations of Shakti, and hence they are the object of respect and devotion. Whoever offends them incurs the wrath of the great goddess. Every [male aspirant] has to realize the latent Female Principle within himself, and only by [thus] 'becoming female' is he entitled to worship the Supreme Being'" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktism
It seems often in the west, with our focus on the material dimensions of our being, we think of only women able to embody the goddess, and vice versa. I once heard a Wiccan writer put it "different bods, different gods" and thus a woman can only be priestess of the Goddess, a man only a priest of the God. But this is not necessarily true of tantra. :)
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RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 3:26 PMWikipedia often represents opinion not fact, so I can't really say... should all women be regarded as manifestations of Shakti, worthy of respect and devotion, free from caste and patriarchal prejudices? Ideally..Yes! do all Shaktas hold this belief, do they practice it? No..
A generally held belief of Shaktism is that all form comes into being because of Shakti ...She is the active force or power *within* all life, and there are many expressions of Shakti .... and this same force may be called Para Shakti, the formless, motionless, beyond all objects and subjects - Infinite Being.
>> "It seems often in the west, with our focus on the material dimensions of our being, we think of only women able to embody the goddess, and vice versa. I once heard a Wiccan writer put it "different bods, different gods" and thus a woman can only be priestess of the Goddess, a man only a priest of the God. But this is not necessarily true of tantra. :) "
I haven't found this to be true, in my experience, though maybe it is what is generally done/spoken of... I've been graced to work with several Priests who practiced within the western mysteries who were also quite skilled in invoking/evoking the Goddess.... although they were not Wiccan, they practiced the living traditions of their ancestors...
there are also many tales/myths that speak of male Priests in this regard, often castrated, who provided services in the ancient temples of the Goddess, such as the Priests of Hekate.
Blessings~
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Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 3:43 PM>>should all women be regarded as manifestations of Shakti, worthy of respect and devotion, free from caste and patriarchal prejudices? Ideally..Yes! do all Shaktas hold this belief, do they practice it? No..
nicely however, this seems to still be in practice for the most part in Bengal. the beggar women bonding with me (and ripping me off :) were Ma speaking to me. we hung with Sadhus, rich Kolkatans, beggars and petty criminals, Pujaris and Brahmins, and only the Smarta Brahmins thought anything about the others.
>>A generally held belief of Shaktism is that all form comes into being because of Shakti ...She is the active force or power *within* all life, and there are many expressions of Shakti .... and this same force may be called Para Shakti, the formless, motionless, beyond all objects and subjects - Infinite Being.
and She and Śiva are one and the same at this point, as there is nothing that is not That. :)
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 4:02 PM>> and She and Śiva are one and the same at this point, as there is nothing that is not That. :)
for me it gets tricky along these slippery slopes, I'm not sure if there is consensus ... from the Shaivite perspective, they're always seeking Him... for the Shakta, it's all Her, the illusionary nature of Maya and that One that lies behind the veil ~ Para Shakti, but at some point transformation that is unexplainable due to the nature of Para consciousness changes perception completely ...and that may indeed equal union of Siva and Shakti ; )
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Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 6:16 PMin the more advanced thinkers I like, there is. it's really just what side of the peak you look up at. I get along great with nondualist Shaivas. for me Bhairava or Paramasiva is not any different than Adi Shakti. it is all in how you choose to approach the Unity. I don't think that the mutually beneficial Shaiva and Shakta schools were historically close for no reason. one of my main threads of interest is the inner Shakta or at the very least highly ambiguous in sectarian leaning teachings of such nominally Shaiva groups as the Krama, Kaula, pan-Indian Shaiva Tantrism, and even Abhinavagupta's Trika (Para, Apara and Parapara where three Devis worshipped). the "nondifference" of Bhairava, Shankara or Shiva with Shakti is a common and much repeated maxim among the Shaiva thinkers I find to be so appealing philosophically, not to mention the exchanges with Sri Vidya. there is so much important, unearthed Shakta history in and around Kashmir. There are many Kashmiri Shaiva Shakti oriented Tantras that exist in manuscript form - some are available on the web in transliteration. a very beautiful Tantric tradition kept records of some of our ancestors as Shaktas alive with their words that were thought lost to time. -
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Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 6:46 PMwww.shivashakti.com/bhairava.htm
this is a typically Kashmiri Shaiva point of view, and even in this, Devi is not neglected. more talk on the finer points ends up with Shakti being ultimately nondifferent than Shiva, even in the most Shaiva of the schools. I am looking forward to translating some of the Krama Tantras. their system of 12 Kalis is unique - not Navadurga, Dashamahavidya, Saptimatrka or any other system I've encountered. there was a beautiful wave of Shaktism in these people, and they produced perhaps the most brilliant thinker on Tantra in general.
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Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 5:18 PMwhen I say unexplainable, I'm just saying that I won't speak of it, I won't debate it, and besides, it is difficult to convey through normal speech, at least not with the main forms of speech that we are often accustomed to using ... I'll try to explain...
my main teachers are Bhaktas, practitioners of Sri Vidya ... I adore them, it was love at first sight :)
they teach that we are all Devi {(who does not belong to any one, or can be claimed by any one religion or tradition but to all as Divine Mother, in whatever form they wish to see Her)} and Devi is the One who teaches all wisdom and knowledge within the vessel or body of the devotee through the experiential... Is Shiva there? always, but silent and working through Her...
for some other points on the written and spoken word I would consult Robert Svoboda ::
"Ekam sat, vipra bahudha vadanti, a Vedic proverb tells us: Truth is One; the wise express it in many ways. The rishis (a wise, God-intoxicated seer who served as a vessel for reality, a conduit through which truth could flow) “saw” reality from a unique perspective; each spoke an inimitable truth. Each rishi ushered universal truths into particularity by spontaneously condensing ritam (cosmic truth) and satyam (worldly truth) into hymns. Quivering with ecstasy, shaking with exaltation and realization, vibrating to the tune of the music of the spheres, these vipras (those who tremble) expressed truth in the four “tongues” that are the four degrees of human speech: vaikhari, madhyama, pashyanti, and para."
Love & Blessings
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Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 7:27 PMI witnessed one of the most beuatiful and eletrifying things last night at a drum for Ochun. I have witnessed Possessions before and Orisha's coming down, but never had I witness Yemaya Okoto come down and yesterday she did on my uncle, one of her priest. It was beautiful to behold, she was fierce, dark, light, Motherly, warm, a warrior, a queen.... She was that which we speak of in the deeper mysteries made manifest. I loved it. Peace and love.xoxoxox.
Love is Eternity,
Dane
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: RE: Goddess and Shaktism
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 5:44 PMwow... how glorious, Dane ;-)
... the tribal and folk aspects of Shaktism are similar in their practice of trance states and possession, I believe... the influence of the African diaspora and secretion into other religions can't be underestimated here either, I'd love to explore that more, perhaps in another thread...the more articulate writers who tell stories about these traditions and the living practitioners who actually practice them seem to understand them from very different vantage points, and the latter is what fascinates me most.
...thanks for sharing...
Love,
adya
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 8:56 PMImage of Ardhanarishvara has just been place in the tribe's photo album!
-Kitty
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 5:35 PMHi...I heard of the Goddess with the 3rd sex look.Or sometimes called 2 spirited Goddess..There was a show on I think it was Discovery Channel called TABOO..They talked about the Goddess and about people born both sexes and the Transgender community in India.To this day Transgender people were sent to live with others like them and were know to be very spirtiual almost like monks would live in a Sanctuary.They would go to weddings to send blessing to the newly wed couple..I am Transgender and I believe alot in the 3rd sex..Just my little 2 cents...Peace ...I hope it alittle helpful.. -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 2:57 AMTraditionally the hijra, who you are refering to, sing and dance at weddings, and also to bless new born boys. Its how they make a living. Here is a group doing the latter:
youtube.com/watch
Unfortunately many these days also have to resort to begging and even prostitution.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 7:45 AMIf you Google "Hermaphrodite Goddess" you will find some interesting links. There is also the Templar god/dess "Baphomet." A good book to read about differently sexed people in many cultures is "Another Mother Tongue" by Judy Grahn.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 9:19 AMThank you so very, very much for all your info! I'm mentoring a TG wiccan and all this info is going to be so very, very helpful and encouraging for my student! This is awesome! Thanks so much,
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 10:44 AMCool! The Judy Grahn book contains so much info....your student can find what "rings the inner bell" and then follow THAT thread in more detail.
For instance, the Native American culture has a really unique way of viewing gender. Check out:
www.guidancetochangeyourlife.com/t...ml
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 4:09 PMThank you for the native American website! That's great my student is interested in their beliefs so this is fantastic.
Thanks again everyone!
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 10:44 PMOh u know what book may be of help too, Changing Ones by Will Roscoe, it talks about the two spirited community past and prescence in native american culture.... When i began my search for answers to my own gender identity The Spirit MOthers and ancestors lead me there. It helped me alot and there are some references to certain deities in it as well. Peace and love.x oxoxoxooxox.
Love is ETernity,
Dane
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 1:06 AMIts a fairly good article. Judy Grahn's book is good, also some of Paula Gunn Allen's writings (who inspired the Native American portions of Grahn's book... she and Grahn were lovers around that time ;) ). Also very useful is Walter Williams' book "The Spirit And the Flesh." Roscoe's work is interesting too, though I prefer Williams' perspective.
This statement from the article refered to above
"...the social function of the Two-Spirit native people was thus to not only serve as a mediator between the sexes, but to walk in both worlds as a bridge between man and the powers that lay behind the veil of the otherwise ordinary life."
is pretty much key, in my view. Two-spirit, third-gender (i.e., tritiya prakriti), etc, is about the fluidity of categories that are often assumed to be rigidly fixed. Gender for most people is, after all, pretty much a given... they are a woman, or they are a man. Many aspects of their lives then derive from that distinction... manners, behavior, attire, social and cultural roles, religious roles. And most will not be 'caught dead' in the other role. Not true of two-spirits people! :) Well, maybe... as of course some really prefer the gender role other than the one they are 'supposed' to take. ;) I know that is how I feel much of the time. ;)
But it is to move between worlds. Between the social worlds of male and female (which in most traditional cultures are fairly distinct), on the one hand, but also, given that fluid nature, one is also perceived capable of moving readily between the human realms, natural realms and spiritual realms. Thus one becomes a mediator in many dimensions, and, for example, in the Lakota tradition a Winkte (the traditional term for a two spirit person) is considered a type of 'wichasha wakan,' a 'holy person.' What is sometimes commonly termed in English a "medicine person."
As, in contemporary terms, a 'transgendered' person myself, I have been identified by traditional native elders in fact as carrying that type of 'medicine.' Most recently that has been in the form of dancing two years in the Sundance, as a winkte. My place was unique. I was instructed to dance between the men and the women -- and yet, at other times, was to dance alone in the shadow of the Sundance tree, between this realm and Spirit. At times I was to be with the women, in the inipi (sweat lodge); at other times with the men. I prefer to be with my sisters; that always seems my spiritual home. But that mobility is a rare privilege to be able to experience the hearts of both. So my dance was to be sometimes with the men, sometimes with the women, and sometimes in the spiritual realm alone. It was needless to say a very interesting experience.
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 7:38 PMThis is what I love about the Man Woman. Is that S/He represents all those things. The men women would learn '"The arts of men" and "The arts of women" and also things that neither else could learn. Hearing ur story moves me deeply. Thank you for sharing it. I will have to pick up the "The spirit and the flesh". I think they may sell it at Lambda Rising.
Speaking of moving between worlds. It is why i love the descent story of Inanna so much. It along with Yemaya's story of Divinitation are times which the two spirited/queer/Andryonous are able to save/protect their Goddesses (there are many more stories, those two popped into my mind.)
Many blessings. Peace and love.xoxoxoxoxox.
Love is Eternity,
Dane -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 9:29 PMBest of luck to all who work the TG magick! I think androgeny is a beautiful blessing of magickal power.....quite transforming! I always love circles with women standing as priest or men as priestess, I have wondered before if there shouldn't be a third potential role....
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 10:46 AMHay,
In Santeria I know there is Olukun... who some call a male Orisha, some call a female Orisha (and an aspect of Yemaya), but most people agree that Olukun is both genders and andryonous (from what i hear).
I love the hijra... I remember watching a speacil when i was younger with my mother that talked about one of the hijra who when a young child was stolen and castrated and forced into prostitution and then i beleive later became one of the hijra (it was on like 20 20 or something). That seems to be the plight of some of the modern day hijra from what i have been reading (being stolen as children by pimps and criminals). I also remember about a year ago reading an article that said the Indian govermnet was employing the hijra to collect debt... they said since employing the hijra in one of the regions that people were paying their debt... That was fascinating to me (i didn't save the article: I wish i did.).
I would also look into Native American culture as well. I have encountered many God/desses who have created two Spirited people but none who had the genitial of the opposite sex so far.
Well i hope this was all of help. Many blessings. peace and love.xoxoxoxox.
Love is Eternity,
Dane -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 10:58 AMhahahahahaa.... Maggie for some reason as i was writing i didn't see ur post or the link... hahahahahhhaaha... didn't that happen earlier in the thread too...hhahahahahahahaha... Peace and love.xxoxoxox. -
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 1:01 PM“Many Indo-European religions tried to combine male and female in the Primal Androgyne, both sexes in one body, often with two heads and four arms…Shiva and Shakti-Kali appeared as the androgyne Ardhanarisvara, the right side male, the left side female. Rudra the older form of Shiva was known as ‘the Lord who is Half Woman’…Chinese Taoists held the mandala of Yang and Yin to represent the androgyne. Western myths also assigned androgyny to the elder gods or the first human beings. The Orphic creation said the first born deity was a double-sexed Phanes or Eros, whose female half was psyche, the soul…”
~ Barbara G. Walker _The Women’s Encyclopaedia of Myths and Secrets_
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 8:02 PMI agree that there is room to research in that direction. In many native practices the gay, tg, and such were considered powerful healers and associated as spiritual in nature.
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Unsu...
Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 3:48 AMBiblically it is pretty much accepted by all scholars and theologians that the race of Adam was androgynous / hermaphrodite. The lords, or angelic host, are often said to have laid with the soulless beasts and impregnated them with the divine spark of ego conciousness (Blavatsky). I personally tale the view that there was a gradual differentiation into male and female (duality). This duality is the trap of the serpent which causes us to erroneously perceive birth and death, this and that, darkness and light.
There is no male or female only complete beauty and perfect harmony. All differentiation of the one causes the ceaseless never ending causation of Maya. Become as a child knowing not good or evil for in truth all is divine beauty.
As for the Dark Goddesses, these are the ones that are destined to become self-born through their desire to nurture all things. So light is born of darkness and the one becomes two and then three. For we all bow to the one as eternal children of the never ending dance.
Hope that cleared a few things up! ;0)
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Re: Goddess with male genital's?
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 7:59 PMSuch great conversation.
You know I think the goddess with male genitals shows us balance. And beautifully helps society accept those born with both sexes. In the womb we all start out as girls, but that is physical.
As being a priest or priestess or even just a spiritual person I think we are drawn spiritually to what balances us, and to what represents the things we want to manifest from within. If one is not drawn deeply to a god or goddess then why work on being their priestess. I just don't worship a sex orientation, but rather what gifts and wisdom is with in the deity. I hope I make sense.
I am very into concepts of sexual acceptance. I personally disapprove of any mutilation to sexual organs, even circumcision. It is not my right to force this on my child. Though I accept that for others it is their right to raise their child in their culture. Naturally, this does not include forcing ones sexuality on innocents in anyway at any age.
I guess such tings come down to whether one sees hermaphrodites as being blessed or cursed or even neither. As a society though, I just hope for them that they get the support and acceptance to feel like it is a blessing.
If deities with both sexes, help people find the god/godess within them, that is them - It is just too awesome!