great points Cookie.

I think that being a Mother is the single greatest, most miraculous creative power, even when totally under appreciated by society, but F#$k 'em! I think that your kids will be happy when they grow up that you have given them what they need most, an available Momma.

women are the ultimate multi-taskers, but the old notion of "bring home the bacon & fry it up in a pan" and take care of family, kids and all hasn't worked, which why I think it all needs to be re-defined, cause the feminism of the past was kind of absent minded, and left the kids out of the picture. but as women we have a natural ability to over come huge obstacles, and we will re-define our natural place in the world.
my personal feeling is that men need to support women more. If the Shakti/Shiva image was considered or honoured--the Divine Feminine, which represents the active principle, and the Divine Masculine that represents the passive principle, as a model for women and men, all would naturally be in balance, imo.

>>" It's good to remember that many women who we see as "oppressed," often do not see themselves as such. For instance, in the wearing of the Burkas."

I agree Maggie, but there are a few other points that I would consider in that statement..

I'm not sure that it could be said that all women would recognize that they had a choice of wearing a certain kind of dress or not. In certain places in the world, women are stoned to death for removing their required dress and treated worse than animals, so there are no real choices. And that was one of the reasons I mentioned "male-introctrinated mind," which I consider a form of female brainwashing that also exists in the west, but in another form. For example, a woman in a situation of oppression and age old cultural habits that have existed for thousands of years won't necessarily see her situation as repressive as she hasn't ever known anything else, and even if it were offered to her, she might not want to to leave that life for one where she could be treated equally. Nor would she want to remove that burka to don some other kind of dress if she could, If she has lived her life in fear daily of what could ensue if she did. Many years of living such a life does not make a sane person. I can only speculate this myself, though I have read about such accounts first hand, as stories of other women who have eventually escaped places where they had no rights, where what I would call human rights violations existed daily; and were so indoctrinated into daily life that they were actually seen as *normal.*

yes, a woman's body is *sacred* and it needs to be up to her to make the choice of what to wear, or what not to wear, but at the same time she needs to have a free mind to be able to make that choice.

Another interesting point I've been thinking about, since one of my spiritual teachers mentioned it recently, is the sharp decline of Dharma in this age that has added to the rise in violent act towards women, acts that in previous ages would never even be thought of for they were considered reprehensible. My teacher essentially said that women could go naked anywhere and were seen as representations of the goddess by all and one. It may sound unbelievable but it's true... women were never harmed, not even an unkind word was spoken, nor was there any harboring of hatred because woman was seen with immeasurable reverence, in an age quite different from this one. All of this is preserved in sacred texts.

As individual women today, we can demand that we be treated with respect by our partners and friends, and worship of the Goddess can inform respect and a rightful balance of the masculine and feminine in our lives.

I agree with your bringing this question up it's a good one and one that i have been struck by myself but from a different point of view. Although I agree with both points about women needing to have freedom to choose and this includes through society, law and their own minds. I also agree that freedom is a thing hard won and self won a lot of the time. The thing i would like to add to the equation here is considering how we in our every day lives seek equality.

It is possible nowadays for us to see the bigger picture (due to technology etc) and I know, Adya, that you asked what people thought about women as a group. But i think this is almost impossible to answer (though not a ridiculous question), I feel myself turning to consider a specific, I consider my own experiences. I do not EVER feel I am being expected to run a family and be a wage earner. I do not even feel i must earn a wage, I believe each of us chooses what we opt into or out of all the time. Often there are things you must give up or change in order to have other things that you want, but i think this is life, this is the same for everyone, men and women. I find it a real shame that someone should feel horrible because they are not earning a wage. I think it has more to do with the structure of society than womans' repression that we should feel this way, any of us. And when i refer to the structure of society i mean property ladder, two car family, essential new kitchen ware mentalities. Cookie pease don't think i am trying to make a judgement about your life, I don't know about it really, but maybe if you feel undervalued that is to do with how the people around you must make you feel and consequently your self image Or perhaps i am showing my ignorance about how society in SF does not value mothers and their work, if so please tell me I want to know.

Anyway the point i wanted to make was that actually what i see in the world around me, and i really mean reflected in my immediate surroundings, are some women taking on so much power that they are hungry or angry still about the past. I hear more sexist jokes about men than i do about women, more casual comments of 'oh men are like that' and 'Don't expect too much he is only a man'. And i see women pouncing on men for even the slightest little faux par of decency. Even adverts on the telly make blatant jokes about male inadequacy and female vidictiveness. I don't know if you guys get the same ads as us but if you do you'll know the ones i mean. I have a friend who is a stay at home dad, he dotes on his son, yet i have watched the woman he is seperated from use the kid against him in the most unkind ways. I watched him live in torment as she played games with him over signing a piece of paper that gave him rights to be considered the boys next of kin. This law, in England, shows no respect for men, this is not equality. In short i think what i am trying to say is that perhaps instead of considering the rights and freedoms of woman as seperate from the rights and freedoms of men perhaps we could consider equalities for all beings. And that the first place to start practising this stuff is in our own lives. I think men as a group are still just as reeling from the power change, there is still a confusion about where things will settle, what is the right way to behave and what is not, things are in flux and it is confusing for all of us sometimes.

In short i think we do compromise the sacred feminine when we act like men in trying to take power and use it in the same way, to humiliate or belittle. However, I agree with Maggie in that technology and vast communication allow us to witness injustices done to others and do something about them, men and women. And that we can embody the divine feminine in our protection and support of those needing it. But we may also re-sancitfy the divine in nurturing those around us that are confused and by recognising that change is a difficult but constant thing and that patience is of the highest virtue in this situation.

I have so often said that we need Matriarchy (again)...and yet what would be best is,"...a more perfect UNION", as it is said in our American Constitution. I have found a strong belief(and always remain open to debate) ,after reading,"The First Sex", that Female is foundational in we creatures, ...and am inspired at the Iriquoi Confederation's ancient resolve to the rampant misuse of Males in our powerful capacity for war,by women matriarchs electing APPROPRIATE minded males to the councils.
--------As a male whom embraces the Goddess I believe we serve society and seventh generations best by proper service to the First gender. With the 'dumbing -down' of society,I regret we may be purged as a species before we get a clue...such a bummer!, but there is always hope! IMO we needed Ralph Nader and Wanona LaDuke(a brilliant woman!) and having met Mat Gonzales who's Ralph's new running-mate you can trust his support for women.Barring that: IMO,we must eliminate all vertical hierarchy in Corps. and Gov't. and set up a hoop(round-table if you like), have a "Truth and Reconciliation" as they did in S.Africa, and invest HEAVILY in child- welfare and put up a statue of a woman where there's now a male war-hero! I am a martial artist myself,but for sane reasons!
Oh sweet Goddess forgive us for our wrongs, I beseech you for the wisdom to WAKE UP!