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lilith conjunct sun?

topic posted Wed, January 9, 2008 - 5:51 PM by  me
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Hi,

Not sure what to think about this. I have a very tight lilith-sun conjunction (both in 8° pisces, 9th house). What could be the significance??
posted by:
me
offline me
Belgium
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  • Unsu...
     
    I have the same conjunction, not so tight though, between lilith, sun and jupiter in the 4th.
    I have a lot of respect to to power of women, I try to learn from you and your ways of being strong inside without showing it off for everyone to see. when I see a guy who gets his ego pumped up by his girlfriend, it is clear to me who is the strong one in that relationship and who will stand strong on his feet if the connection will be broken. more often then not, it will not be the guy.
    I think it has a lot to do with the triple conjunction I have.
    • Unsu...
       
      uriah,

      very interesting view! i have asteroid lilith conjunct sun/mercury/jupiter in 4th house. I wish i had something to share on my experiences, but lilith still has me in the dark... darn lilith ... lol
      • Unsu...
         
        Natalie,
        I was talking about black moon Lilith. not the asteroid.
        • Unsu...
           
          uriah,

          do you know what the difference is between the liliths & their influences? i don't... lol
          • Unsu...
             
            my black moon is in 3rd house conjunct neptune & mars... then my dark moon is in 12th house conjunct pluto & sextile black moon/neptune/mars. i have read that these 3 liliths kind work like one represents a cage, one is where this is released, and the other is how you release. i have to find the link for that article.
          • Unsu...
             
            I now that asteroid lilith is an actual body in the sky, an asteroid.
            black moon lilith is a mathematical point. I think of it as the dark side of the moon. I don't understand the exact calculation and I don't really care.:)
            and third, dark moon lilith is a second moon of the earth that someone saw and was never seen again, (if you choose t believe it).
            • Unsu...
               
              yes ililith is a confusing gal. mem is the expert, it's a little over my head... this article i am speaking about, it states that the asteroid is the only tangible one & it is the "how you free yourself." i never bookmarked it so i have to do a little research & hope i stumble upon it again.
          • do you know what the difference is between the liliths & their influences?
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~

            from my research I've found that the 3 Liliths most often used (there are more for those who want to dig even further) are similar enough that the generalized interpetations found online can pretty much be used interchangably ~

            once you get a handle on that level, you can then start to be picky about specific definitions of the different Lilith forms, but until then, it seems, that most people just confuse themselves by attempting to separate them ~ my advice is to just jump right in first & correct your mistakes (there will always be mistakes!) as you go along & are getting deeper into it ~ otherwise the confusion level is likely to drive you away before you learn anything useful ~ tricky Lilith!

            in this tribe, I have attempted to provide definitions that I have gathered from all over the web on the different Lilith forms ~ I'll bump a few threads to the top of this list that may be helpful to people ~ but keep in mind that not everyone agrees on everything & a few of the websites seem just as confused, so sometimes the stated definions are inaccurate too ~ it really is up to each individual to make the best sense of Lilith for themself ~ Lilith is frustrating that way, but that is part of her essential nature ;)

            bottom line ~
            use what *resonates* for you ~
            yes, you may need to revise later, as you get deeper ~
            that's the way it goes
            & you are never "wrong" (from your current perspective) but you can always improve ~
            make sense?

            love all-ways,
            mem
    • me
      me
      offline 3
      Uriah
      This I recognise. I consider meself to be a real feminist, though I never show it openly. Most people who don't know me that well think of me as conservative (cancer ascendant-capricorn moon), especially in relationships, and I'm quite the opposite. I have a problem with authority too, especially when imposed by men.

      Is it possible that a sun-liltih conjunction could bring out more of the negative traits of the sunsign? (in my case it's the mean lilith that is aspected, true lilith is also conjuncting mercury, don't remember wich is the dark or black moon)
      • In my experience, bml, or black moon lilith is the most important of the liliths. I think it indicates elements in the collective and individual unconscious that are rejected from conscious expression because of opposition on the part of the current power structure. To find this in your chart:

        go to astro.com
        establish a free account and enter your birthdata ( if you have not already done so)
        click on the "free horoscopes" button at the top of the page
        click on the "extended chart selection" button on the lower right hand column
        highlight the asteroids you want in a menu towards the bottom

        there is a box at the bottom of the page that says"additional asteroids"
        enter "h13"
        then "click here to show chart"


        Other good tricks on the extended chart page is to click " show some fixed stars" and also to enter other asteroids in the box where you put "h13" Just separate entries with a comma.

        here are some asteroid numbers i use:

        Amor - 1221 (universal love)
        Appolo 1862
        Artimis - 105
        Eros - 433
        Hygia - 10 (medicine and health care)
        Polyhymnia - 33 ( muse of sacred music )
        Psyche - 16
        Urania - 30 ( this indicates interest in and talent for astrology )
        • Unsu...
           
          what exactly do eros and psyche show?
          • Unsu...
             
            my psyche conjunct moon, both opposition chiron. my intuition is the strongest one I know of in my friends circle. specially when it comes to the pain people carry with them ALL the time. I think of psyche as a point reviling the "soul" of something. the inside drama.
          • EROS

            The Asteroid Eros can shed some light on some of our erotic turn-ons. In mythology, Eros was the god of sexual love and desire. He was considered irresistible. In Roman mythology, Eros was known as Cupid. "In Greek art Eros was depicted as a winged youth, slight but beautiful, often with eyes covered to symbolize the blindness of love. Sometimes he carried a flower, but more commonly the silver bow and arrows, with which he shot darts of desire into the bosoms of gods and men." (Encarta Encyclopedia)

            Eros overpowers the mind with love and sex. Eros represents sexual objectification, passion and desire, and creativity.

            from www.cafeastrology.com/sexuala...ros.html
            <that link leads also to a listing of Eros in all the signs, as does this one www.falconastrology.com/natal_...ids.htm >

            love all-ways,
            mem
            • Zane Stein's websites on Psyche & Eros
              www.zanestein.com/psyche.htm
              www.zanestein.com/eros.htm

              love all-ways,
              mem
              • some previous research I did on PSYCHE

                image by JW Waterhouse www.johnwaterhouse.com/painti...den.jpg

                The goddess Venus, jealous of the outstandingly beautiful mortal Psyche, asked her son Cupid to cause Psyche to fall in love with the vilest wretch alive. Cupid agreed.

                When all continued to admire and praise Psyche's beauty but none desired her as a wife, Psyche's parents consulted an oracle which told them to set Psyche in mourning garments on top of a nearby peak as Psyche was destined for no mortal lover but for a monster who held even gods in thrall. So it was done. But then Zephyrus, the west wind, carried Psyche away to a fair valley and a magnificent palace where she was attended by invisible servants until night fell and in the darkness of night the promised bridegroom arrived and the marriage was consummated. The bridegroom visited her only by night and refused to let himself be seen.

                The mysterious bridegroom even allowed Zephyrus to take Psyche back to her sisters and bring all three down to the palace during the day, only warning that Psyche should not listen to any argument that she should try to discover his true form. The two sisters, jealous of Psyche, returned, jumping down from that peak so that Zephyrus had to bear them up gently or let them die. The sisters told Psyche, then pregnant, that rumor was that she had married a great serpent who would devour her and her unborn child when her time came. They urged Psyche to conceal a knife and oil lamp in the bedchamber, to wait till her husband was asleep, and then to light the lamp and slay him at once if it was as they said. Psyche followed their advice. In the light of the lamp Psyche recognized the fair form on the bed as the god Cupid himself, but a drop of oil fell from Psyche's lamp and scalded Cupid. Cupid awoke and flew off with Psyche clinging to him until she could hold on no longer and fell to the earth, whereupon Cupid chastised Psyche for disobeying his charge though he himself had ignored his own mother's command, had descended from heaven to love her, had wounded himself with his own arrow.

                The god Pan, who was nearby, advised Psyche to seek to regain Cupid's love through service.

                Psyche returned to her old home and told her two, jealous, elder sisters what had happened; they rejoiced secretly and each separately attempted to return to the valley hoping for the love of the god, but this time Zephyrus did not bear them and they fell to their deaths.

                Psyche searched far and wide for her lover, finally stumbling into a temple to Ceres where all was in slovenly disarray. As Psyche was sorting and clearing, Ceres appeared, but refused any help but advice, saying Psyche must call directly on Venus. Psyche next called on Juno in her temple, but Juno said the same. So Psyche found a temple to Venus and entered it. Venus damned Psyche as a whore but did accept her service and ordered Psyche to separate all the grains in a large basket of mixed kinds before nightfall. An ant took pity on Psyche and with its ant companions separated the grains for her. Venus was outraged at her success and told her to go to a field where golden sheep grazed and get some golden wool. A voice from a reed in a river told Psyche that the sheep were vicious and strong and would kill her, but if she waited until noontime, the sheep would go to the shade on the other side of the field and sleep; she could pick the wool that stuck to the branches and bark of the trees. Venus next asked for water from the Styx and Cocytus flowing from a cleft that was impossible for a mortal to attain and was also guarded by great serpents. This time an eagle performed the task for Psyche. Venus, outraged at Psyche's survival, claimed that the stress of caring for her son, depressed and ill as a result of Psyche's unfaithfulness, had caused her to lose some of her beauty. Psyche was to go to Hades and ask Proserpina, the queen of the underworld, for a bit of her beauty in a box that Venus gave to Psyche. Psyche decided that the quickest way to the underworld would be to throw herself off some high place and die and so she climbed to the top of a tower. But the tower itself spoke to her and told her the route through Tanaerum that would allow her to enter the underworld alive and return again, as well as telling her how to get by Cerberus by throwing him a sop and Charon by paying him an obol and how to avoid other dangers on the way there and back. Psyche followed the orders explicitly and ate nothing while beneath the earth.

                But when Psyche had got out of the underworld, she decided to open the box and take a little bit of the beauty for herself. Inside she could see no beauty, rather an infernal sleep arose from the box and overcame her. Cupid, who had forgiven Psyche, flew to her, wiped the sleep from her face, put it back in the box, and sent her back on her way. Then Cupid flew to heaven and begged Zeus to aid them. Zeus called a full and formal Council of the gods (which parodies a meeting of the Greek senate), declared it was his will that Cupid might marry Psyche, told Venus that it would be respectable matrimony, had Psyche fetched to heaven, and gave her a drink of immortality.

                The offspring of the marriage was Voluptas, that is, 'Pleasure'.

                Source: Wikipedia
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                “Psyche” refers to soul, self, and mind in Greek, hence its similar meaning in English; thus we also have psychology, psychic, etc.

                In Greek mythology, Psyche was Eros' (Cupid's) mortal beloved. Psyche endured many trials foisted on her by Eros' mother Aphrodite (Venus), jealous of Psyche's beauty. This included a trip to the underworld. Eventually Zeus sanctioned the marriage of Eros and Psyche, and granted Psyche immortality.

                In her sojourn to Hades, Psyche succeeded in retrieving a bit of Persephone's (the queen of the underworld's) beauty, in a box Aphrodite had given her.

                image www.cs.rochester.edu/~schube...erus.jpg

                from www.cs.rochester.edu/~schube...he.shtml

                love all-ways,
                mem
  • Dark Moon Lilith conjunct the Sun or in the same sign as the Sun magnifies to a more that usually noticeable degree, the basic solar qualities, interests or talents. It magnifies willfulness & adds a certain distinction to the individual that makes him or her stand out from others.

    The Sun in close aspect or conjunct DMLilith gives strong presence & an indomitable will. This one is a strong individualist, make no mistake about that, who, while not particularly trying to outshine others must maintain a uniqueness about him/herself that is special from others. He cannot abide comparison of himself to another but prefers that each person stand in his own light ~ and particularly himself. Though the appearance may be given, depending on the chart, he cannot entirely yield his will to the group for long without an inner nagging discomfort building up in him. It will sooner or later erupt into actions or words that finally relieve him from the shadow he feels placed in by the ego of another, even if it is self-defeating. It may appear to have come from nowhere & is irritatingly puzzling, if not maddening, to those around him. It is not so much an independence that he/she seeks as much as it is the right to be different that he must satisfy within himself & have it recognized by others. He understands criticism of himself if it is based on what he does from an impersonal point of view, but never because of what another expects of him from a personal point of view. In the latter case this one can be totally impossible, as if the divine right of kings were being dared to be denied him. On the emotional level he can be egotistical as he can be kind & graciously humble when impersonal. DMLilith brings out the extreme on either level.

    excerpted from D.G.Jay's Interpreting Lilith (1981)
    as you know, this book was written specifically about the Dark Moon Lilith (hypothetical second moon of earth) & I am wondering how well this interpretation works for the other Lilith forms, as well

    love all-ways,
    mem
    • <cont. from above>

      For one reason or another these people are prominent & can be the most loyal of friends if you do not try to dominate them. Quite the contrary, the latter brings out an omniscience in them that will, depending on the chart, either make them cut you out of their life even though you may be unaware it is happening, or suddenly react with an abrupt or even cruel action that banishes you from their presence for all practical purposes. They attract the extremes of feelings from others ~ either to admire & follow them, or to go to great lengths to avoid their strangely scorching presence.

      One with DMLilith-Sun aspects not only needs, but reserves, the right to individually or creatively express & do what he will & to shine or fall as long as it is in his own particular way. In many instances they tend to attract one who seems to dog their footsteps in what they do, until they forget about themselves enough in their attitude (depersonalize) to successfully rise above it & continue on their way to greater creative output. It is as if they were challenged for their place in the Sun. Otherwise, they are constantly put in a position of sharing honors with this particular individual. It is a humbling experience that is attracted, but they need it for greater emotional perspective & objectivity on themselves.

      With children they are not so much involved with their physical or emotional care & development (beyond what is necessary), as much as they are in with the intellectual or creative development of their charges. This is not to say that their parental duties are not properly seen to. It would depend on other factors in the chart. It is merely to say that they primarily relate through encouraging greater individuality in each one to be the best they can be where their mind and/or talents are concerned. Without such communication there are problems with children & young people.
      • from the Canopus program:

        Sun-Black Moon conjunction:
        Being conjunct to the Sun makes the Black Moon extremely powerful. Especially (but not only) in a female chart, a major aspect of Black Moon to the Sun tends to create a 'Lilith character': strong-willed, stubborn, independent mind and lover of freedom, original, non conformist, rebellious, passionately disliking routines and enslavement at large. Lilith was the woman who did not need Adam and left him - not a common thing to do in early biblical times - one reason being that she bluntly refused to lie under him during lovemaking.

        There is a profound need to go beyond limitations of all kinds. This, naturally, leads the native to challenge establishment. At times, it will create difficulties; a Lilith character does not hesitate to tell her/his boss what she/he thinks of him, and can't give a damn about consequences once she/he has made up her mind to do something.

        The eyes shine, at times defiantly. The personality is sharp, with a marked taste for intensity. This, in Clairvision language, corresponds to violent astrality - venom in large measure!

        There are strong likes and dislikes, and a tendency to know immediately whether one likes someone or not. This may have to do with the profound insights into the psychological motivations of other people. Being herself/himself so well in touch with her/his shadow, the native has a fine understanding of other people's psyche.

        A Lilith character is often subtle, with a great sense of nuances, and an EXTREME sensitivity.

        Problems with the father:
        With this aspect, it is not rare to find that the native had major problems with the father (especially in the chart of a female). Either the father was absent, or perceived as absent, or was fought against. There is likely to be some deeply rooted wound in the psyche, relating to the father, with profound consequences on the whole organisation of the personality. In symbolical terms this conflict with the father goes far beyond childhood scenarios. It is the father image, in its widest meaning, which is involved here. Think of Lilith, angry at God for making her subjected to Adam's authority (and patriarchal establishment at large), and lamenting, "How could He [God the Father] do that to me?"
        It is the same wound that you are carrying. It was so deep that it never healed.

        When experienced on its highest level, a major aspect of Black Moon to the Sun can make the native quite psychic: premonitory dreams, intuition, natural affinity with the hidden mysteries of life, and clairvoyance.
        • Interesting. My soul mate has his BML conj his sun in the 12th house in Aquarius no less. It has to be like the double whammy with this placement since much of the reading fits Aquarius sun as well. "strong-willed, stubborn, independent mind and lover of freedom, original, non conformist, rebellious, passionately disliking routines and enslavement at large. " Very Aquarian as well as Lilith.

          He definitely has that sharp tongue and doesn't care. Also strong likes and dislikes. And even the problems with the father.

          Very accurate...for him anyway.


          Probably part of why we get along. We have great BML (and true Lilith) aspects that generate a different kind of relationship but one where we feel passionate, intimate and committed (funny how that was on a different tribe. It also says it makes us feel like family. Hmmm I guess strong Lilith identifiers feel they have to stick together?

          Anyway, it was interesting. Thanks!
        • I know a person with his Sun conjuncting his Lilith (0 degrees orb`).
          He is a strongly expressed individualist,stubborn,his own wishes follower,
          smart,clever and a real ...Gemini :)
          as his Sun and Lilith are in this sign .
          But the Gemini qualities of his are just very Positive.



          ~E~
          • Lilith is supposedly exalted in Gemini ~ the mutable, Air element gives her the detachment that allows her to be much more workable

            love all-ways,
            mem
            • wow, i just read this description of dark moon conjunct sun, and it is so spot on -

              <The Sun in close aspect or conjunct DMLilith gives strong presence & an indomitable will. This one is a strong individualist, make no mistake about that, who, while not particularly trying to outshine others must maintain a uniqueness about him/herself that is special from others. He cannot abide comparison of himself to another but prefers that each person stand in his own light ~ and particularly himself. Though the appearance may be given, depending on the chart, he cannot entirely yield his will to the group for long without an inner nagging discomfort building up in him. It will sooner or later erupt into actions or words that finally relieve him from the shadow he feels placed in by the ego of another, even if it is self-defeating. It may appear to have come from nowhere & is irritatingly puzzling, if not maddening, to those around him. It is not so much an independence that he/she seeks as much as it is the right to be different that he must satisfy within himself & have it recognized by others. He understands criticism of himself if it is based on what he does from an impersonal point of view, but never because of what another expects of him from a personal point of view. In the latter case this one can be totally impossible, as if the divine right of kings were being dared to be denied him. On the emotional level he can be egotistical as he can be kind & graciously humble when impersonal. DMLilith brings out the extreme on either level.
              >

              I have Sun at 0' 22 cap and dark moon at 26' 40' sag - I also have Pluto transiting my sun now, so its been pretty intense the last year or two. There both in the second house.

              I've always felt my sun was some how stifled - blocked, and i guess this could be another feature of this black moon sun conjunct ? But i guess if there was any time to resolve that it would be this Pluto transit.

              I do really relate to the description above of feeling a need to be different and not controlled, which relates to my father being very controlling, and i guess that could explain the feeling of the sun being stifled.

              So Pluto hitting this could be chance to break free from that ? I also feel my sun is in a significant place, being at the 0 degrees cap point, winter solstice and all that. Noel Tyle talks about that point being a point of possible collective significance, even fame, and a connection to earth energies, the planet and funny enough im working on a media project which could go VERY big globally in maybe 6 months or so, and the project very much relates to “the world” and has been very much a feature of the last few years under this Pluto transit. There has seemed to be some deep seated fear about that, about geting it out there, even though i have some very big and powerful people waiting and offering potential support with the project.

              Recently with this last 3rd hit of Pluto to my sun, them fears seem to be evaporating and there is a sense of liberation, but i feel a bit like a baby walking for the first time with fragile legs !

              BTW Satarn is in 0 degress Pisces in my chart so makes an exact sexitle in my birth chart to my sun. Which untill I found about my dark moon sun always confused me.

              Because my normaly ambitious sun in cap in the 2nd house always seemed to have a kind of fear about ambition, especialy to do with money and material things - like this could almost be "evil" but then i know there is a great latent desire in me for real power, which ive come very close to, real big power, in the last 3 or 4 years. I used to think with the sun in cap in the 2nd house sextile saturn, why the problem wiht my sun ?

              Dark moon lilith perhaps explains it.

              Wonder if anybody has any comments ?

              • Unsu...
                 
                Hi Elo, just a tiny remark about the stifled, blocked feeling of your cap sun... I have sun trine saturn and I have always been blocked too. I am no lilith expert but I don't think she has a lot to do with feeling stifled. Saturn does, however. Always, unfortunately.
                • I think lilith has a lot to do with being stifled. I think thwarted, rejected, unacknowledged and stifled all describe lilth's influence. I'm no expert either, but bml has a prominent position in my chart, and that is how i've come to think of it.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    my lilith is in gemini exactly on my descendant. So relationship stuff. Anyway, from what I gathered it seems to me she describes the part of you that is uncultivated, "natural". The area of life where you are naive (seen from the viewpoint of others). Or where you have talents that stem from a deep source. Like I have a talent for anthing involving my hands (gemini). My hands are exceptionally strong with big veins and they have healing qualities. I would not associate lilith with the words you describe in any way. Sorry Wil, I cannot share your experiences. Maybe I'm the only one here, I don't know.
                    • So if you connect lilith with 'natural talent' (though maybe hidden/latent - here I can easily agree), why do you think that may seem naivete to others?
                      How have you experienced lilith on the DC, if you don't mind my asking? (mine is also angular, but on the IC; also connected by aspect with several personal planets)
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        ashley, maybe "uncultivated" or "not influenced by cultural stuff" would be the bridge between 'naive' and 'natural talent'.

                        If i think about lilith on my descendant, it is obvious my attitudes in a relationship are "pure". I am not aware of any limitations or "should not do" stuff whenever I am in a relationship. So probably I have a unique approach to relationsips. Unique as in "not dictated or limited by cultural standards". It feels as if I was born with a gap in my brains. As if the part of my brains where "behaviour according to cultural standards in relationships" is missing.

                        When I think of my natural talents, I think of my hands. Maybe I have natural talents in relationships as well, but in that case they feel so normal that I haven't noticed hem yet. Others may see my attitude in a relationship as being naive because I never "play it by the rules". To be honest, I don't understand "the rules". They feel very weird and strange. I mean rules that tell you how to "catch" a man and then get him to marry you.

                        I hope this does provide you with an answer.
                        • Yes, it does. I generally feel the house where Lilith lies in my chart is somehow like you said ... totally independent from cultural standards (but almost savage in manifestasion as well, which doesn't seem totally ok to me; I am aware of its being on the verge of lack of control, so to speak, but I sense there's no other way to it).
                          Why do you associate Gemini with the hands?
                          • Unsu...
                             
                            Hi Ashley, before I ever had heard about lilith, a friend once pointed at my hands and at the very big blue veins - which were the same as his. Later it turned out we both have lilith in gemini - in fact they are conjunct in synastry. We also both have healing hands.
                            Recently I read on a moon in gemini tribe that this moon apparently is very much focussed on their hands. They like to have their nails done and also use their hands a lot when they talk (and as you may know they never shut up).
                            So that's why :-)
                            • I feel Wil is right, that its something to do with the dark moon, though Saturn which is exactly sexitle my Sun could have something to do with it too.

                              Funny enough, as Pluto has been finaly coming out of its last hit on my sun, the last few weeks since i made that post above (though its still less than 1 degree off it) ive been feeling a lot of my fears and limitations recede.

                              I dont think ill see this perioid truely clearly for another year or too, as they often say with big transits, its not till the dust has settled that there clear.

                              But Pluto is just finishing now its run of them three planets that its being upto for about the last 4 years, 26 40 degrees Sag Black Moon, 29 Juno, and 0 22 cap Sun, and i can feel now this phase is coming to an end, and the new phase, like a new birth, is just beginning. It feels very liberating.

                              Ive had Uranus opposite a three planet stellium in my tenth, Uranus, Pluto, Mars with Saturn passing over them three too, so its been a very intense time !

                              • >I think lilith has a lot to do with being stifled. I think thwarted, rejected, unacknowledged and stifled all describe lilth's influence.<

                                I would agree with Wil. Lilith is about the part of us that defies society and culture and thwarted, rejected, unacknowledged and stiled as a result. It's all part of trying to control the Lilith inside us as Adam and the angels tried to control and break Lilith herself. They definitely did all of this to her as did the God who created her in the end. Yet, Lilith defied them and lived true to herself even when it cost her...and Lilith, not Adam, remained immortal and part diety. So to me the only true reading of Lilith has to do with that. I would agree this part of us is also the natural part, the wild child, the woman who runs with the wolves.

                                Unsub - I think even though you didn't see what Wil said as Lilith, this part of what you said is that part of Lilith -

                                >I am not aware of any limitations or "should not do" stuff whenever I am in a relationship. So probably I have a unique approach to relationsips. Unique as in "not dictated or limited by cultural standards".<

                                That's definitely Lilith all over it. You do your own thing even though you know it's not what "you should do" and "Not dictated or limited by cultural standards." That's exactly what Lilith did and what she paid the price for doing - as do we all in some way even it's just being looked at askance. That's the rejection, unacknowlegement, etc.

                                And here's more of it in what you said:

                                >Others may see my attitude in a relationship as being naive because I never "play it by the rules". To be honest, I don't understand "the rules". They feel very weird and strange. < That too is very Lilith. She didn't get "the rules" either and refused to play by them no matter the cost. I think this is what Wil is saying. Lilith is this part of us.
                                • Unsu...
                                   
                                  OK, I do not doubt all your experiences with lilith, it's just that I personally have never ever felt that way (except when I have a transit involving saturn). So I guess I have learned something today: other people experience their lilith as stifling. Personally, I notice how others reject me, but I always regard that as their problem, and I pity them for not being able to experience the joy I feel. It does not affect me or my behaviour. I mean, people have been rejecting me as long as I can remember, so I learned how to live without social acceptance or support. I just go my own way without harming anyone and that's it.
                                  • But that is Lilith. She did her own thing despite being rejected just as you did. That is the Lilith part of us. It isn't Lilith that is stifling, but what others try to do to you to make you do what they want. Lilith is to fly in the face of that and do what you want anyway...AND to see it entirely as their problem if they don't get it. It is going your own way anyway. That's exactly what Lilith did. So your Lilith comes out wherever you feel or see the disapproval but go your own way anyway. It's usually an area where you have to very strongly stick to your guns and not listen to society or conform to it. After all, Lilith was no lightweight in the way she did it, she invoked the name of God and flew away then she basically told the angels to f off no matter the threats against her. And she did remain immortal whereas Adam had to toil the land and died.
                                    • the 'stifling' part happens when you choose to align yourself with society, which is at odds with Lilith ~ if you normally favor Lilith over society, than you wouldn't feel the 'stifling' ~ but if you try & do what society wants, in the area that Lilith rules, she will frustrate you to no end

                                      love all-ways,
                                      mem
                                      • <the 'stifling' part happens when you choose to align yourself with society, which is at odds with Lilith ~ if you normally favor Lilith over society, than you wouldn't feel the 'stifling' ~ but if you try & do what society wants, in the area that Lilith rules, she will frustrate you to no end >

                                        so i guess Lilith right alongside my Sun in capricorn, Capricorn of course always wanting there place in society and recognition, Capricorn is often billed as the Jones in keeping up with the Jones, well then there is going to be some pretty big pulling between the sun and Lilth to see who would win ? And there was talk before of problems with the Father, my Father was most defiantly a force for conventionalism on me, being a Turkish military officer !

                                        And I guess the answer is a partnership between the two ? Them working together. Right inbetween the two of mine is Juno.

                                        I think im getting the hang of this now, because - because to me that would imply a marriage and other committed relationships (children ?) could be one way of finding peace between these two ?

                                        Sun in 0 degrees cap is supposed to be an intense sun anyway, because its the 0 degrees winter solistic point, Noel Tyell talks about that. So i feel this, overall is a pretty strange spot in my chart.

                                        <the wild child, the woman who runs with the wolves. >

                                        and with a man (dont be so sexist you lot, ha ha, only teasing, we men have the Litlh two you know) with a man it would be a man who runs with wolves ?

                                        something like, heathcliff wuthering heights kind of thing ? and right alongside my Juno, lol, now that explains much too. The plot thickens.

                                        If its a competition though i guess the sun and Juno would win, being the closest together, 29 and 0 degrees cap, but it sounds to me that that sun will work a whole lot better if it learns to take Lilith with him, and not subjugate her to the shadows ?

                                        Actly seems a lot of my life up until the last 10 years or so Lilth has had the upper hand, but i should think of it more as these three planets working together rather than a competition.

                                        And maybe with Pluto passing over the top of all three of them this past 4 years or so, and now finishing just last month on its final hit of the sun, i may learn for them to work together. It seems maybe that way, but the dust is still settling.
                                        • <Yeah, and if you go for your Lilith you run the risk of screwing your social life, your carrier and some good old close relationships as well, so .. it depends on what you need and value more, your deepest parts or 'external benefits'.>

                                          well thats been a big part of my life i guess you could say, and Lilith probably won most of the time, but i think maybe when you find a career that works better with what Lilith wants, unconventional, creative, independent, even wild to some extent, then there's potential to full fill both ? deepest parts and external benefits ?
                                          • and of course a relationship that fits that. against the odds i may have found that, but being lilith full of freedom, yet Capricorn solid steel like commitment, at once both committed, wild and free. Harmony in a contradiction.

                                            now i know why i always liked this as a child. Maybe it was my Lilth, Juno and Sun together.

                                            www.youtube.com/watch
                                        • with Juno there, I'd also suspect some affinity for bondage/discipline sex play with the partner as a way to 'negotiate' the power struggle/relationships/dynamics ~ issues of dominance/submission would be highlighted & sometimes Capricorn needs to be reminded that 'play' is like rehersal for life & a good strategy for implementing improvements that one would like to see ~ plus, it always helps to lighten things up a bit ~ especially in the bedroom!

                                          love all-ways,
                                          mem
                                          • well i have to say I'm a little ahead on that one, lol, power games in sex, something interesting and nice to get a kind of astrological endorsement for, but I'm getting more into the idea of a deep pagan/tantra energy power play that i feel somehow connects with my suns outer needs, and its creative, environmental and public potential that is only recently coming, possibly to light. Thats something that im only just becoming aware of under this Pluto transit, now that you mention it. Your very good at this I can see.

                                            Noel Tyle talks about the significance of the 0 degrees Cap, Aries, And Libra points. I found a strange but interesting book that talked about the spirt energies of the Winter solstice point and a kind of connection to power.
                                            • thanx :)

                                              Lilith + Juno + Capricorn = BD/SM ~ it just seemed the 'obvious' outlet for that mix of energies
                                              (I'm glad I wasn't wrong, 'cuz that would have been embarrassing!)

                                              I think it would also be a natural for you to have the ability to become a leading figure in the subculture, if you wanted to.

                                              love all-ways,
                                              mem
                                              • i think thats a part of it and myself that ive come to understand more over the last ten years, but there are other aspects of these three planets together, i just read this about juno conjunct sun -

                                                <You may consider the cause of �feminism�, or the balancing of the genders, of primary importance; >

                                                balancing of genders, that sounds bang on, i know people have said i have a VERY masculine side, but a very emotional feminine and creative side too, which is kind of like my father and mother. The interplay between them has often come out in my art.

                                                But Lilth seems to add yet another dimension to the "balancing of genders" there seems a pull between the "woman who walks with wolves", wlid, creative, emotional, sexual, and the Cap ambitious worldly sun, who wants to make his mark in the world and be practicle. Up till the last 5 - 10 years Lilth seems to have won that war. But these days they seem to be starting to work together better, because the sun maybe has found a form of ambition that Lilth can be more happy with, creative and free.

                                                The erotic side of Lilth these days seems affected by the energies ive read about 0 degrees Cap, thats supposed to be a side where you can conect to the collective energies, pagan earth like energies.

                                                Im involved in a big project now, that im forming, and if successful it should be an outlet for that as it has the earth, the world, the environment, the very big public profile, all as aspects, which Noel Tyle talks about with the 0 degrees Cap point.

                                                But its interesting thats connected with Lilith. That explains a lot to be psychologically. I mean environmentalism and SM sexuality and Paganism are not things you naturally put together ! lol, but that kind of explains energies that have been developing for me, especially as pluto has been transiting these three.

                                                It also expalins my strong desire that i should work on this to some extent always as an "outsider" not becoming too much part of the mainstream world of the media, but somehow operating from some kind of secret shadows - yet with Juno, still being very much part of partnerships.

                                                One thing i have got from knowing about Lilth recently is my understanding that there has been this conflict around male female energies around my sun, somehow there seems guilt associated with power.

                                                Maybe thats to do with the sense of the sun sometimes restricting and trying to dominate Lilth, which could be something to do with my father, who was very dominating and controlling in ways, as he was from a different culture, Turkey, my mother being English.

                                                So they seem somehow connected with these two planets, my mother perhaps being a "woman who walks with wolves" potentially, but forced to live in the shadows, which would explain perhaps a feeling of guilt around my own masculinity ?



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