Resolved: Christianity is based on historical events, not pagan myths.

topic posted Sat, November 3, 2007 - 9:31 AM by  Josh
I will defend the affirmative.
Any takers?
posted by:
Josh
Boca Raton
  • I think the first order of business for someone who would defend the "based on pagan myths" claim would be to state with beliefs are based on which myths and then back that claim.

    I don't think anyone claims that the Jewishness of Jesus was based on pagan myths, or that that Jesus fulfilled scriptures. (Far as I know, pagans had no Scriptures.) This raises the question of what those who make the claim are claiming. What counts as "essential" and who does the counting?
    Does it count as essential that:
    --Jesus was killed by the government?
    --that the execution was public?
    --that he was opposed by religious leaders?
    --that he was a monotheist?
    --that he rose on the third day?
    (I am not asserting that any of those claims is true. I am asking, are those claims considered to be among the claims borrowed from pagan myths?)
    • I'd raise question as to whether the distinction is a catagorical opposite.
      Most myths, in my opinion, are based on historal facts. That that is so,
      needn't be a problem. Myths have recurring themes and factual stories
      are often retold *because* of their mythic significance. They speak to the
      human condition, the the journey and patterns of tranformation, the
      meaning of community, our relationshp to 'the unknown' and they like.

      I agree that no learned person is saying that Jesus was not a Jew all his life.
      Clearly his historical life is related to Jewish scriptures. Scholars such as
      Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg and Bishop Spong distinguish between
      what is generally called the Pre-Easter and the Post-Easter Jesus;
      distinguishing that the historicm man from the early church's traditions
      about him. The latter is seen as more mythic in character. In presenting
      this model Jesus scholars use pagan scriptural sources as references
      such as the Zoroastrian Avesta. (That Magi i.e. Avestan priests are cited as
      visitors to the Jesus Child would be an example of such syncretism within
      the narrative.) The myths are rich in stories concerning a virgin birth,
      persecution of a sage, the martyrdom of a god. Also one can easily look
      to links between Mithraism and the Jesus Narrative.

      So what constitutes essential narrrative elements? Are they borrowed?
      Yes and no. And in what ways does it matter?
      • >>>>>>I'd raise question as to whether the distinction is a catagorical opposite.
        Most myths, in my opinion, are based on historal facts.<<<<<

        Historical events need not be the categorical opposite of pagan myths. Someone could argue that there is a third possibility (-some other myths, or a blend of historical events and myth) but that would be another claim.

        In the case of Jesus, though, I think the claim of myth is especially weak because there's no known case of such myths arising so soon after the death of an actual person. (By "so soon" I mean "while people who knew him were still around.")

        When looking at particular myths---and I hope someone comes to strongly defend that view---there are a few problems that scholars in this area have recognized for a long time: 1) co-existentence does not prove dependence, 2) it is a methodological error to describe myth A in terms of society B and *then* use that description as proof that society B borrowed that belief or practice. (An example of this concerns Mithric 'baptism', which some popularists describe in Christian terms and then claim the description prooves that that's where Christians got the idea for it. When scholars of Mithraism explain the ceremony as the Mithraists explained it, it sounds a lot *less* like anything Christian.) On a related front, 3) there is the chronology problem. (Sticking with Mithra practices for a moment: the cult may be dated to the 5th or 6th century BC, but its practice among Roman soldiers *post* dates the advent of Christianity; indeed, some scholars have now suggested that the Mithrac 'baptism' may have been influenced by Christianity rather than the other way around.
        • I timed out and had to end the previous post prematurely. (Say that three times fast!)
          It's a mistake (-which I am not accusing *you* of!) to take a religion that dates back to, say the 5th century BCE, find a document from the 1st century CE describing a practice of that religion and assume that *it* can be dated back to the 5th century BCE. This is the sort of thing that one runs into on web sites, though seriuos scholars don't do this.

        • >Historical events need not be the categorical opposite of pagan myths. Someone could argue that there is a third possibility (-some other myths, or a blend of historical events and myth) but that would be another claim.

          This is what most reputable Jesus scholars in fact posit.

          With regard to point 2, methodological error, I'm not sure that washes in the first century
          Middle East as Israel was a (and is) cross-roads. There was strong cultural cross-polination. In fact I agrue that Jesus likely was multilinguual speaking Aramaic, Greek,
          and Latin as well as having reading knowledge of Hebrew. There must have been wide
          spread knowledge of other cultures.
          • >>>>>With regard to point 2, methodological error, I'm not sure that washes in the first century Middle East as Israel was a (and is) cross-roads. <<<<<<

            Yes, it was a crossroads. I have no objection to anything *demonstrable.* People got around and encountered people from other places. Indeed, the early church was a network of communities, which I think argues against the assumption of some biblical scholars that each gospel was written for a specific, isolated, introverted community.

            Nevertheless, we know that Christianity was "exclusivistic" from the beginning. We're less certain of how "inclusivistic" pagan beliefs were in the first century. (We know they were very 'inclusivistic' by the fourth century, but that doesn't tell us how they were in the first.) We also know that Christians held pagan myths in low esteem. You're right to point out that Christians knew about other cultures; it's important to realize they tended to regard them as inferior.
            • Hmm. I'm not sure I know what you mean by exclusivistic. Initially,
              the Jesus movement was a sect of Judaism. Judaism seems
              to have been somewhat heterogenous-- maybe less in Palestine
              proper than elsewhere in the Empire. It is true on the one hand, that
              the Jews needed to distinguish themseleves both ethicly and religiously,
              but on the other they wanted to fit in as well. Rabbi Hillel says: "when others
              stand, you stand... etc." The same is especially true of the Jesus movement
              during the persecutions. So myths may have been thought inferior, but
              the ideas behind them were well known and developing Christian teachings
              were clearly couched in the terminology of the mystery religions. I do not agree
              that the various communities of Jesus-believers were insular, but I do
              think that like political parties or religious denominations of today, groups
              generally followed the opinions of their leaders and tended to discount the
              views of others. You can see this in Paul's letters. So the Johnine community
              for example saw things very differently than the Aramaic speakers who liked
              "Matthew's" narrative. I think it is crucial to remember that it was the Jews who
              expelled the Christians from their fold (at a rather late date), not that Christians
              always were always exclusive of any other view.
              • >>>>>Hmm. I'm not sure I know what you mean by exclusivistic.<<<<

                In short, monotheistic! "The Lord our God is One." (Dt. 6)
                There was diversity with Judaism but within a fairly narrow range. The Sadducees thought only the Pentateuch was binding (-hence their lack of belief in the resurrection of the dead) but *no* Jewish group thought *any* pagan writing was Scripture in any sense.

                >>>>>>I do think that like political parties or religious denominations of today, groups
                generally followed the opinions of their leaders and tended to discount the
                views of others. <<<<<<<
                This presupposes that one can divide them up that way, and that's not so clear. Consider Paul. He wrote to several churches, some which he founded but others (such as the church at Rome) which he had never even visited. If Paul was the member of a "party" it's not clear which one it was.
                It's important to recall that there is no evidence for the existence of, say, a "Mathhean" community. The existence of such a community is "deduced" from the text and then used to interpret the text. It's a circular motion with little besides habit to recommend it. We know Paul and know that he wrote a lot, but there's no talk of a "Pauline" community. Why is that?
          • >>>>>This is what most reputable Jesus scholars in fact posit. <<<<< {Re: blending of history and myth.]

            Yet I hold that no denial of the Resurrection (or dismissal of it as "mythical") is acceptable, or even the result of good historical research.
            • I'm back tracking slightly, baptism was a Jewish practice
              adapted and emphasized by John the Baptizer. We have
              no evidence that Jesus presided over a mikva bath, only
              that he encouraged it. Indeed ritual bathing is commonplace.

              As for the resurection motif: I agree that resurrection is central
              to Christian thought and experience and physical resurection
              for most is a dogma. But what does this mean? We have to look
              at the Hebrew Bible for the antecedents and indications of meaning.
              We see these in the Elijah and Elisha narratives as well as Jesus'
              various "miraculous" raisings from the dead. In each case, the
              dead person is deemed "sleeping." In each case to touch the dead
              would break the purity code. So are these a mythic parable or a recounting
              of a miracle? And by extension-- Jesus' resurrection (setting aside its factual
              historicity as a miracle for the moment) -- what does it mean? It means the same
              thing as "prophesying to dead bones" --to wake up spiritually and be regenerated
              just like the seasons in the pagan myths.
              • >>>>>>We have to look at the Hebrew Bible for the antecedents and indications of meaning. <<<<<<< [Re: resurrection]

                Certainly we consider the Old Testament but we that cannot set the limit for discussion and interpretation. For starters, the OT stories you mention are *not* resurrections. The story of Lazarus in the Gospel of John is not a resurrection either. Nor was the raising of the son of the widow of Nain.
                Lazarus would die again, as would the widow's son. But Jesus would not. They were returned to *this* life (in their human bodies), whereas Jesus rose in a glorified body, not his former one. (When Lazarus came out of the tomb, everyone recognized him at once; when Jesus emerged, *no one* recognized him immediately. That's a bid difference)

                >>>>>what does it mean?
                It means the same thing as "prophesying to dead bones" --to wake up spiritually and be regenerated just like the seasons in the pagan myths. <<<<
                I disagree with all of this. To begin with, Jesus was not spiritually "asleep" before the Crucifixion! Further, his rising is in no way like the annual rising of corn-gods in pagan myths. (They arose every year, not once for all time, and they arose as they were before, whereas Jesus arose unlike anyone ever before him.) Finally, he wasn't a pagan, his disciples weren't pagans, and their first followers were not pagans but Jews. The more closely one looks at Semitic thought and pagan beliefs, the less one finds in common between the two.
                • One thing that people do not consider is that myths surround resurrection, and the the son of God go way back in every religion they exist. in. if the prophecies of the messiah are genuinely from God and given to man from the begining is it any wonder that so many beliefs with variations on the same theme would result? We can trace back to the earliest known myths but even those are known to only through our ability to find evidence of them and therefore do not imply the actuall origin. If God speaks to man then it is no wonder to me that every culture shares some aspect of a hidden truth. Another thing to consider is that the Christian religion was hijacked by the pagan church of Roman which attempted to superimpose their deities on Christian Characters. Ishtar became Mary, Apollo Paul, etc. This further blurred the seperate and unique origin of the Christian faith.
                • The voice of God, is another reason for the similarity between Pagan beliefs and Christian ones. Mosses heard the voice of God on the gentle breeze while in awe of a natural phenomenon. God speaks to us through nature. He speaks of the ressurection in every morning sun rise and in the changing of the seasons. Death is explained in the chrysalis of a butterfly or in the fallen seed nestled in the earth in Autumn. God speaks and we all listen and have arrive at parallel interpertations. Yet to one people his voice was clear they were choose to deliver it to us all and from their midst the salvation spoken of by the blue corn moon.
                • "Resurrection" as a phenomenon, I think deserves a closer consideration
                  that what you're giving it. I'll allay a possible concern up front I accept the
                  miraculous physical resurrection of Jesus. In fact I consider that the Byzantine
                  Church has it right on this point-- resurrection is the central event of Christianity
                  (or should be instead of crucifiction.) So I'm not saying what I think you are
                  taking from my thought.

                  The gospel narratives do consistently prsent Jesus (among other things)
                  as a wisdom teacher and the disciples as consistently missing the point.
                  The spiritual sense of events is always highlighted. Therefore, it matters not
                  that Lazarus dies again (although we have no record of it, we simply assume.)
                  Nor does it matter whether Darius' daughter ever dies, they both have entered
                  "the deathless." Every witness to the event was transformed. I think that the
                  relation of Sleep to Death is something gnosticly significant, not just a literal
                  distinction (see Sweedenborg).

                  All these resurrection stories prefigure the new heaven and earth. So to say
                  that Jesus' resurection was something different for all time is problematical.
                  It was widely believed that one of the 12 was blessed to never taste death.
                  Likewise Elijah diappears in the same way Jesus does. To reference the
                  road to Emmaus in my thinking means we have to discuss the transfguration.
                  Jesus was always "glorified" and hanging out with Moses et al, but only on
                  one occasion did a few disciples get it. So for disciples not to recognize
                  the risen Christ is not unusual. So to say Jesus arose for all time as
                  something unlike anything seen before denies several doctrinal points--
                  1) his Divinity from the beginning (he din't become something new), 2) his
                  physicality (meaning that god can raise himself but humans can't and won't),
                  the Divine Image and Likeness of humans (if once and for all then we'll never
                  be anything like him). New Jerusalem theology requires that all arise from
                  deadness or sleep into their fullness of glory as joint-heirs and equal-children.

                  To say that the early followers of the way were not pagans is to miss the point
                  of Paul, to miss Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman, to miss that the
                  first convert was a eunich. I concur with Bishop Spong (and Origen among
                  others) that the core of the teaching us universal salvation. Jews, Romans,
                  Slaves, Samaritans, Persians, Women and Eunichs were all invited to the table
                  as equals both spiritually and socio-politically. True, the pagans adopted Jewish
                  values, but that they were not required to be circumcised, allowed to eat temple-
                  sacrificed meat, pray wherever they like; but the radical inclusion and the "coming
                  alive in Christ" were the marks of the New Cult that celebrated a New Jerusalem.

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