Diesel Secret Energy

topic posted Thu, July 27, 2006 - 10:38 AM by  Unsubscribed
Aloha Kauko,

At this site they have formulated an additive which would allow all diesel engines to "safely" run vegetable oil and said additive. Now my friends this sounds very good and it may be true. So far from their site I have found that it is a 87% veggie oil to additive ratio mixed micro-emulsion. I live in Hawai'i and have been running a 90%/10% RUG blend so I know micro-emulsions do work provided the ambient temperatures are like my island's.
DSE claims that its additive will give us a fuel comparative to biodiesel and petro distillate.
I do veggie oil modifications and teach biodiesel workshops, now you might expect me to be against such an additive. However, that is not the case, I have been experimenting with microemulsions and RUG-biodiesel. In Hawai'i everything I do works here. I would love to not to have to "modify" anything and use my time on other pursuits.

Gentlepeople your thoughts.

posted by:
  • aloha,

    what's RUG?

    and a possibly related thread:
    WVO with lard (malasada/donut cookery) is not terribly useful, but you can mix it 30% with gasoline and the gasoline emulsifies the congealed fats to allow it to run in a diesel engine. not as good a solution as i'd like, but sometimes all i find is oil that was used for malasadas....
    • Unsu...
      R.U.G > regular unleaded gasoline

      Anything that will thin your oil. The chemistry research is primarily my own so be aware of all that you experiment with. Did we meet at exstatic dance? We helped a lady with a bent turbo pipe...

      I had a RUG blend of 90% UVO and 10% RUG sitting for over 9 months. All systems were a go, all filters clean no worries. This was in my car in Kona.

      Much Aloha

      • ive never met anyone who used "diesel secret" but read up a lot on it on biopdiesel boards. my sense of it is that where you are, in hawaii, what the heck is the point.. if youre unfiltered veggie oil / regular unleaded blend works fine why pay them for their "secret" additive. in the rest of the world, i havent heard too many bad stories from people who have tried it, but a lot of people who have never tried it have looked into it and say they never will (try it that is). im with them, personally, their secretiveness is not my style.

        do some google research, you will find a lot of thread discussions (in this tribe and the biodiesel tribe, and at other bio and alt. energy sites) with good discussion.
      • jeremai,

        thanks for the RUG explanation. didn't know the term, but i was aware of the technique.

        my neighbor uses a 50/50 gas/donut grease combo that works pretty well (donut grease has lard in it so you need more gas to thin the lard)

        and yes we met at ecstatic dance when Keri trashed her car in the invisible ditch.


        • This post was deleted by doctor
  • Considering Billy was warned about continuing to advertise his business on this tribe and he did so twice in one day. He is banned for a period of 1 month.

    I am willing to clarify my no SPAM policy if common sense doesnt seem to prevail, but considering he was warned directly about further infractions I dont feel the slightest twinge of regret.
  • Last I heard the secret is out, the ingredients in Diesel Secret amounted to Automatic Transmission Fluid.
    This is not a new concept folks have been cutting grease with just about every petroleum distillate under the sun, since the 70's and someone invented single tank WVO conversions.

    Some major factors here are the FFA of your feedstock and the overall lubricity of the oil which is harmed by the introduction of gasoline you could be on the way to early engine component failures. I've heard of this before but I'm not willing to endorse it. Their just isnt the science and research to back it up. That combined with the blind batch splash mixing and the fact that most ppl who damage/destroy their diesels up doing silly things dont usually come around bragging about it.

    I dont know if the stuff works as advertised or not. Call me jaded, but their is a science to making good fuel, a diesel will run well on mildly hot bacon fat for a while. But eventually your looking at problems down the road. I'm not going to totally count it out, but the old name for miracles in a bottle used to be "snake oil".
  • Lets look at the issues here and what Diesel Secret or RUG type methods are trying to achieve.

    Vegetable oil as it is and depending on which type your using and what else is in it. It generally too thick to run in a unmodified diesels fuel system. What does that mean.

    Typically speaking most WVO (waste vegetable oils) are thicker than diesel fuel at ambient temperatures. What that means is that the lift pump (typically found either in the fuel tank or on the engine) pumps fuel from the storage tank through a filter or series of fliters, the objective of which is to remove any non-fuel solids and water from the fuel. The oil being thicker at this stage of filtration has a harder time going through the fuel filters. The fuel then passes to the injector pump, which is simply an oil compressor. Its job is to take somthing which is only maybe 5 or 6 psi (like a small balloon) and change it to something that is 6,000 psi (about 5 or 6 times more powerful then a sprayer used to clean a deck).

    In the process of being compressed, as all things that are compressed the molecules in the oil rub together faster and faster and they generate heat. We could say a typical temp would be 150-200° F odd degrees.

    So the oil is heated very briefly, then the oil is pumped through a hose to a injector nozzle. This injector nozzle is like the stem on your tire. Where you put the hose on and it pushes the needle out of the way to let air in. But it works the exactly opposite way. Intsead of having to be depressed to let air in, a needle actually pops out of the way to let the pressure go, the action of the pressure release causes the fuel to atomize in the cylinder, much like a plant sprayer. This action actually causes the oil to cool down as it is being atomized, but it simultaneously causes an controlled explosion called combustion.

    This heat from the explosion causes expansion and thus the piston is driven down and energy is converted from heat energy to mechanical energy.

    Now I'm sorry if that was way basic for you advanced users out their but I want to make sure everyone is on the same page. Also for you advanced users you may notice that I am referring to a very basic IDI type engine so please don't nitpick if I didn't cover every diesel ever made.

    What is at issue here is the varying levels of fuel thickness in relation to mean heat absorption, or more simply put the inability of the oil to maintain a correct or constant injector nozzle pop pressure due to the inconsistencies of the heat in the oil, proper atomization of the oil, injector nozzle profiles in relation to nozzle trumpeting and severe coking of the piston ring land coking and excessive wear forces on lift pumps and injector pumps. Not to mention potential exhaust valve polymerization and polymerization of the engine sump oil.

    A mouth full but lets take it in bite sizes.

    Generally speaking Oil is a fairly viscous or thick fluid. Having said that It takes a matter of time to get oil heated up. An oil this is at ambient temperature will not exhibit the same characteristics as an oil that is heated and during the process of heating an oil has many different levels of viscosity, none consistent with the other all exhibiting different properties.

    A prime example of this is trying to operate a tractor that has been sitting in the cold. When first started, the hydraulic pump is able to move the fluid into the pistons and provide basic function, however the cold oil is not capable of generating the same amount of expressive forces. The tractor is not able to operate at its full potential even though the pump is generating the maximum force it is made for. It is only when the oil is uniform in consistency or viscosity that it is able to operate properly.

    So using a unmodified diesel, what you are doing is drawing thicker oil through filters and using only this brief exposure to heat in the injector pump to help improve the viscosity of the oil but only very briefly and not uniformly. The machine will still function but at a reduced capacity. This still thicker oil sprays into the cylinder with not the proper or consistent force and instead of having a fine plant mister quality it has a partially drip and formation of droplets that are too large to com bust completely, this actually can cool the combustion chamber and lead to deposits of unburnt fuel hanging around the tip of the injector nozzle and washing down the sides of the cylinders. The deposits around the injector nozzle are referred to as "trumpeting" because they make the shape of the bell of a trumpet around the nozzle.

    This unburnt fuel still being an partially combusted oil because a prime trap for carbon, trapped carbon on the cylinder walls leads to abrasion and scoring of the cylinder sleeves, compound deposits on the rings of the pistons and accelerated contamination of the engine sump (or lubricating oil). Oils with high FFA (Free Fatty Acids) content will also lead to polymerization of the lubricating oil and polymerization of components on the exhaust side of the cylinder, most notable the exhaust valves... essentially you can make your diesel engine into a very crude petroleum based plastics production machine.

    Diesel Secret:
    Lets look at the primary main ingredients:
    Xylene and Naphthalene

    From Wikipedia
    The term xylenes refers to a group of 3 benzene derivatives which encompasses ortho-, meta-, and para- isomers of dimethyl benzene. The o-, m- and p- isomers specify to which carbon atoms (of the main benzene ring) the two methyl groups are attached. Counting the carbon atoms from one of the ring carbons bonded to a methyl group, and counting towards the second ring carbon bonded to a methyl group, the o- isomer has the IUPAC name of 1,2-dimethylbenzene. The m- isomer has the IUPAC name of 1,3-dimethylbenzene. And p- isomer has the IUPAC name of 1,4-dimethylbenzene.

    It is a colorless, sweet-smelling liquid that is very flammable. It occurs naturally in petroleum and coal tar and is formed during forest fires. The chemical properties differ slightly from isomer to isomer. The melting point is between −47.87 °C (m-xylene) and 13.26 °C (p-xylene). The boiling point is for each isomer at around 140 °C. The density is at around 0.87 kg/L and thus is less dense than water. Xylene in air can be smelled at 0.08 to 3.7 parts of xylene per million parts of air (ppm) and can begin to be tasted in water at 0.53 to 1.8 ppm.

    Chemical industries produce xylene from petroleum. It is one of the top 30 chemicals produced in the United States in terms of volume. Xylene is used as a solvent and in the printing, rubber, and leather industries. p-Xylene is used as a feedstock in the production of terephthalic acid, which is a monomer used in the production of polymers. It is also used as a cleaning agent for steel, a pesticide [1], a thinner for paint, and in paints and varnishes. It is found in small amounts in airplane fuel and gasoline. With oxidizing agents, such as potassium permanganate (KMnO4), the methyl group can be oxidized to a carboxylic acid. By oxidizing both methyl groups towards the acid, o-xylene forms phthalic acid, whereas p-xylene forms terephthalic acid.

    Terephthalic acid

    Terephthalic acid is one isomer of the three phthalic acids. It finds important use as a commodity chemical, principally as a starting compound for the manufacture of polyester (specifically PET), used in clothing and to make plastic bottles. It is also known as 1,4-benzenedicarboxylic acid, and it has the chemical formula C6H4(COOH)2.

    On an industrial scale, terephthalic acid is produced, similar to benzoic acid, by oxidation of p-xylene by oxygen from air.

    Fire Fighting Measures

    Flash point: 29C (84F) CC
    Autoignition temperature: 464C (867F)
    Flammable limits in air % by volume:
    lel: 1.0; uel: 7.0
    Above flash point, vapor-air mixtures are explosive within flammable limits noted above. Contact with strong oxidizers may cause fire. Sealed containers may rupture when heated. Sensitive to static discharge.
    Fire Extinguishing Media:
    Dry chemical, foam or carbon dioxide. Water spray may be used to keep fire exposed containers cool, dilute spills to nonflammable mixtures, protect personnel attempting to stop leak and disperse vapors.
    Special Information:
    In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode. Vapors can flow along surfaces to distant ignition source and flash back.
    NOTE::: Terephthalic acid is produced by oxidation of p-xylene by oxygen from the air. Since veggie oil is rich in oxidation I can only imagine what form of crude polymer you are forming under atmosphere and combustion?!?!?

    Naphthalene (not to be confused with naphtha) (also known as naphthalin, naphthaline, tar camphor, white tar, albocarbon, or naphthene), is a crystalline, aromatic, white, solid hydrocarbon, best known as the primary ingredient of mothballs. Naphthalene is volatile, forming a flammable vapor. Its molecules consist of two fused benzene rings. It is manufactured from coal tar, and converted to phthalic anhydride for the manufacture of plastics, dyes and solvents. It is also used as an antiseptic and insecticide, especially in mothballs. p-Dichlorobenzene is now often used instead of naphthalene as a mothball substitute. Naphthalene easily sublimates at room temperature.

    In humans, exposure to large amounts of naphthalene may damage or destroy red blood cells. This could cause the body to have too few red blood cells until it replaces the destroyed cells. Humans, particularly children, have developed this condition after ingesting mothballs or deodorant blocks containing naphthalene. Some of the symptoms of this condition are fatigue, lack of appetite, restlessness, and pale skin. Exposure to large amounts of naphthalene may also cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, blood in the urine, and jaundice (yellow coloration of the skin).

    When the U.S. National Toxicology Program exposed male and female rats and mice to naphthalene vapors on weekdays for two years (1), male and female rats exhibited: evidence of carcinogenic activity, based on increased incidences of adenoma and neuroblastoma of the nose, female mice exhibited some evidence of carcinogenic activity, based on increased incidences of alveolar and bronchiolar adenomas of the lung, and male mice exhibited no evidence of carcinogenic activity.

    The International Agency for Research on cancer (IARC) (2) classifies naphthalene as possibly carcinogenic to humans [Group 2B]. It also points out that acute exposure causes cataracts in humans, rats, rabbits, and mice and, that hemolytic anemia, described above, can occur in children and infants after oral or inhalation exposure or after maternal exposure during pregnancy.

    Over 400 million people have an inherited condition called glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency. For these people, exposure to naphthalene is harmful and may cause hemolytic anemia, which causes their erythrocytes to break down.

    From the MSDS

    Flash point: 87C (189F) CC
    Autoignition temperature: 526C (979F)
    Combustible. May be ignited by heat, sparks or flame. May burn rapidly with flare-burning effect. Fire may produce irritating or poisonous gases.
    Explosive limits, volume % in air: lel: 0.9; uel: 5.9. Above flashpoint, vapor-air mixtures are explosive within flammable limits noted above. Closed containers exposed to heat may explode. Contact with strong oxidizers may cause fire or explosion.
    Fire Extinguishing Media:
    Dry chemical, foam, water or carbon dioxide. Foam or direct water spray on molten naphthalene may cause extensive foaming. Molten napthalene spatters in contact with water; apply water from as far a distance as possible.
    Special Information:
    In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode. Vapors can flow along surfaces to distant ignition source and flash back.

    So your adding two types of benzene, hydrocarbon, a potential human carcinogen with depressive respiratory effects over long term or high exposure. Looking at it now, not only does it make your engine release more pollutants but if it doesn't coke up your engine first it may just help your body forget to breath while your sleeping. Lest we forget that its dangerous for skin exposure to pregnant women.

    The good news is everything your adding makes the oil more reactive to flames. The bad news is I have no idea whats coming out of the tailpipe, but from what I read if you mixed this stuff with biodiesel in the right concentrations and the biodiesel was processed using some of the other methods out their you could certainly have engine failure on your hands very quickly. Forget seized engine under the right conditions I see engine epoxied shut from the inside.
  • RUG

    I dont want to sound like I'm picking on anyone, because I'm not. The reason I started this tribe was to discuss issues openly and honestly.
    While I have my convictions, they are based on my research and dealing with other mechanics and being able to do repairs and maintenance on a variety of engines over the years.

    RUG (Regular Unleaded Gasoline) + Veggie Oil does not equal Biodiesel. The act of mixing petroleum with veggie oil takes away the BIO part. Bio is a prefix meaning "biologically based". Petroluem oil is a mineral that is anything but biologically. trust me try pouring some on a living plant.

    The theory behind mixing RUG with Veg oil is to help improve the viscosity at ambient temperatures... since gasoline is neither acidic or basic (even ethanol blends would be neutral) it is used as a solvent to dilute the viscosity of the oil. The oil having a BTU of ~130,000 Btu and the Gasoline a BTU of ~18,400/lb it can actually retard the combustion process in high enough levels. At lower concentrations it will cause additional heat in the combustion chamber. the additional heat in the combustion chamber can cause the injector nozzle to overheat, the varnish and gums in gasoline will begin to cook in the nozzle and form microscopic carbon deposits. The deposits are abrasive and can and have in previous cases caused injector failure. This is known as injector coking, similar to injector trumpeting but it happens inside the injector instead of externally.

    The main concerns here that the boiling point of Gasoline is between 100-300°F and fuel Oils typically is around 300-574° F. The problem here being high temps in the injector pump or in the lines leading to the injector nozzle can cause the formation of vapor bubbles in the fuel lines. Vapor or gas bubbles in a line are the nemesis to hydraulic pressure. Ultimately as those pressures build the fuel return line becomes the only point of relief as the injector pump back feeds on it self. Pump cavitations, rough idling, loss of power all could be symptoms.

    Also the fact that gasoline has a much lower lubricity point than fuel oils and the solvent like nature of the petrol counters the positive effects of the SVO. High concentrations of gasoline (no exact figures exist) are known to cause injector pump failure.

    If your gonna single tank it, I'd much rather see you use a thinner viscosity fuel oil, like palm or coconut or something. These oil have very excellent viscosities and require no preheating or modification in most cases of a diesel.

    I realize you use the oil you have not the oil you wish you had, but without running actual lubricity test and viscosity test of your feedstock oil and whatever grade gas your splash mixing with, I'm afraid to say their is just no quick and dirty percentages of mixing RUG with veggie oil that I would be satisfied with to put in my tank. Think of the engine like your body, just because it'll run on junk food, doesn't mean its good for you.

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