The difference between a teacher and a partner?

topic posted Sun, November 23, 2008 - 11:50 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I have found myself asking this question over and over as every partner I encounter teaches me something new about myself, men and life itself. Yes, I am a seeker, I invite experiences which I will learn from, people whom are insightful, often brilliant. I don't often seek out lovers and the ones I choose to be with come into my life for a reason. I learn from the darkness and the light, the beautiful and the hideous - and in all is light and beauty.

Yet it feels like every partner I attract is a teacher rather then a partner. I feel as though they come in, do the work and disappear. Thus I wonder if I am capable of drawing in a real partner, one who accepts me as an equal and has some degree of staying power. I have experienced all different types of relationships, but I am a traditionalist in my own way, I do want one partner to connect with and share my life with.

Has anyone encountered this, finding yourself in the role of teacher or student too often, or a similar imbalance? Do I sound ungrateful? I am not.

How does one know the difference when a person comes into your life in whom everything feels right with? What defines a teacher? What is it like to have a real partner? How will I know it when I see it?

I look forward to your feedback.
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  • Unsu...
     

    Clarification

    Sun, November 23, 2008 - 12:17 PM
    By teacher, I mean one who instructs in some manner on a lesson such as intimacy, heart-based love, sexuality, etc. Who literally appears at your doorstep when you absolutely need to learn something, does the work and flings you back down to where you started from to pick up the pieces.

    By partner I mean one who is on an equal level, both teacher and student, lover and companion, friend and confidant. A person who respects and is respected, accepts and is accepted, harmonizes and connects in a scenario which is harmonious and connected. More then a fling, more mature then a boyfriend/girlfriend (I am not a fan of that terminology at my age).

    • Re: Clarification

      Sun, November 23, 2008 - 3:48 PM
      L y d i a, your question has been very important to me and I have asked something like it many times. Certainly, partners should teach each other through sharing and love. I have learned something from every partner I've ever been with, whether it was just talking in a library for a short time or a full-fledged relationship that lasted many years.

      But there is another aspect, too. Sometimes I've found myself romantically involved with a partner who, for a lack of a better term, is "advanced" far beyond my current level. Most of our relationship turns out to be one where I learn...and then, having completed the spiritual purpose of the relationships, she departs. Sometimes, I've found myself romantically involved with a partner who--perhaps in my egotism--is not as advanced as I am. Then, rather than simply being her partner, and wanting her to be with me, I try to share what little I know. The result is a changed relationship. We are not merely partners, but also a student/teacher couple. When the student learns what she/he needs to from the teacher, it is useless to stay.

      In my current relationships, now over 5 years, I have made a conscious effort not to take on a teaching role. If there is something I consciously think I could teach, I instead point her in the direction (books, other teachers, Socratic questioning) so she can discover the learnings for her to move ahead by herself. Instead of being a teacher, I've only been a nudger. I've seen how incredibly she has grown, becoming even more self-confidence and blooming into an unbelievable human being. And by letting her discover things on her own, she has returned even more learnings, so that I have gained incredibly from it, too.

      We both have much to learn from each other, one reason why I believe our relationship is so strong. I hope this gives you the assurance that there are ways to continue learning from each other and still have a passionate, loving, lasting relationship with a partner. I'm not saying what worked for us is the only way, just that it is a way.

      Namaste!
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        Re: Clarification

        Mon, November 24, 2008 - 10:34 PM
        It has been a difficult dynamic for me to see behind the veil enough to know a teacher when I meet one. And in my learning, I find everyone I encounter to be a teacher. Perhaps it is an observance that perhaps there is an imbalance, perhaps I don't see myself being enough of a teacher and strong enough in my knowledge. That I feel I must always lean on another or in my ocd, that I must take knowledge from everything. No longer do I look at the surface value of anything and perhaps that is keeping me from enjoying the lightness of just being. I wonder if my "teachers" all knew the level of what I was learning, for at times, a lesson will come and they look at me quizzically as though they did not intentionally initiate it. The nature of my work is to look at the unconscious movement behind thoughts, feelings, actions and experiences. I wonder if a true partner, a true equal came my way, if I would not continue to challenge myself to learn as much as possible and miss out on what I was looking for all along. If only I could be such a good student with my education!

        Thank you for sharing your experience. I am delighted that you found someone in whom you learn from and nudge and it works.

        As you indicated in a different post, every relationship is an evolution... I would just like to be evolved enough to sustain something which is mutually moving.

        • Re: Clarification

          Mon, November 24, 2008 - 10:56 PM
          Reading what you write, a thought strikes me.

          Someone who is a teacher has a role in my life. Their role has to do with me - my betterment, my evolution, my learning, my progress. Who they are, what they get out of the exchange, is almost irrelevant to the dynamic.

          Someone who is a partner has a role in my life. Their role is to give of themselves and for me to give of myself toward a common goal. That goal, whatever it may be, is the central objective of the relationship. Both my partner and i may learn and grow as a result of working together toward that goal, and doing so can make it easier for the partnership to last, but it's not mandatory to the dynamic.

          As long as the primary goal is my own betterment, i am more likely to find a teacher than a partner.
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            Re: Clarification

            Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:20 PM
            Thank you for that. It is amazing how selfish self-betterment can become in not kept in check!

            I see the selfishness in my past relationships and am extremely grateful that I had such patient lovers, whose buttons I pushed in my ignorance. Yet in all the extremes came this emerging harmony, this sense of the ebb and the flow, the give and the take, the gentle waves which nurture the blossoming flower of love. I feel as though I'm at the apex, where all I have learned has come to a point.

            Just as I'm frozen, I also know that I am ready. That all this learning I have accumulated must necessarily flow out of me and all I can do is trust that I find a vehicle for it. I don't expect it to be solely a lover; I've been holding it in selfishly - so I don't need to hoard it anymore, but instead to allow my heart to be open enough to share it with everyone I come across, a lover, a friend, a stranger, across countries and through time.

            Maybe that is all I really needed to learn. Maybe instead of focusing on what's wrong in my own quest for self-betterment, I should build my strengths and share my gifts. And maybe that's all being a teacher is all about, embracing oneself, ones truth, with all the flaws and imperfections, even owning those too and sharing it, because people are quite remarkable and if I can learn from strangers as I can from lovers, maybe they can learn from me too.

            Wow. Thank you all.
    • Re: Clarification

      Wed, May 27, 2009 - 8:08 PM
      Can we clarify some terminology here such as heart-based love, companion, and friend... and talk about this "appearing at your doorstep" thing? Thanks.
  • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

    Mon, November 24, 2008 - 1:01 PM
    For me, teachers show up in my life whenever I am ready to learn. Almost like I "will" a person into being the teacher role even if they don't start out to be that.

    It's all in who I am being that defines how the other will be for me. My wife of 17 years is a teacher to me in business matters, but I am a teacher to her in the matters of heart..
    • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

      Mon, November 24, 2008 - 1:06 PM
      This is important as I believe we are all teachers when it comes to subject matters we endear..

      I submit one can be a partner and teacher and student all at once. The rub comes for me when I don't want to be taught, think I know it all, or have a wall built of low self esteem built around me.
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        Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

        Mon, November 24, 2008 - 10:53 PM
        It is true, one can indeed be a partner, a teacher and a student all at once, that is a harmonious mix. The learning is there, thus the receiving. The teaching is there, thus the offering. And the union, the intimacy and the connection is there, thus the partnership. That would be an ideal trine.

        I think I feel inferior when I'm predominantly the student, for I love the learning, but I feel like a child, like one looked down as immature or misguided. It feels like everyone in the world knows something and I'm the last to figure it out. It is humbling, which is fine, but there comes a point where I just want to discover this great "AHA", so I can feel balanced and at one, rather then constantly searching.

        Perhaps you are right, the true, universal, forehead pounding rub is that dualistic flip flop of the "I don't want to be taught", the "I think I know it all" and the "wall build of low self esteem". the movement from feeling of knowing everything out of stubbornness, to the deadening misperception of feeling as though knowing nothing at all.

        I always wonder, perhaps foolheartedly, when I'll be ready to be a teacher. Not because of a lack of knowledge, but a lack of trust in my own knowledge, a sort of second guessing which keeps me in the role of the student in an imbalanced way.

        I then look at the imbalanced teacher/student situations and think, wow, I definitely don't want to choose partners where the situation would be reversed, though certainly I would like to contribute to peoples learning outside of relationships. It seems it would be easier for men to take on the role of teacher in a relationship, for men, until they have found a compatible match are more likely to move from partner to partner, at least in my observation.
        • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

          Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:58 PM
          L y d i a, I think one of the aspects of your post is not only true, but is also a condemnation of the way we educate children. As you wrote, "I think I feel inferior when I'm predominantly the student... I feel like a child, like one looked down as immature or misguided." This is exactly the way we normally teach our children....and our adults. Instead of empowering students, many teachers try to bask in their own wisdom and superiority. Sure, they want to educate you, so long as you're not as educated as they. No wonder so many people hate school and hate education. No wonder so many people distrust the educated elite. No wonder so many people feel we don't need educated experts to deal with socioeconomic issues when we can have "Joe the Plumbers" with simplistic non-solutions for complex problems.

          According to ancient Tantric tradition--and the Tantra to which I'm referring is an entire spiritual system, not just the sexual neo-Tantra which most Westerners who think of Tantra consider to be the full extent of it--there are blockages (kleshas) to spiritual development. Of the five kleshas, to my mind the most important one to overcome is avidya--ignorance. But overcoming ignorance should NOT mean being made to feel inferior, immature, or misguided. Rather, it should be a time of exploration, discovery, and unfoldment. To my mind, a true teacher leads by pointing the way, no standing about you and lowering himself or herself to lend you a hand. To my mind, the ultimate joy of any teacher should be to see his or her student experience one of those "AHA!" moments of crystal clarity and understanding. Perhaps the only thing better would be when the student expands upon what the teacher has shared and becomes the teacher of the teacher. What an incredible blessing that is!

          So I would say there is room for us all to have teacher/partners, as long as that person is not one who lords their knowledge over us and limits our receipt of the information in an attempt--conscious or unconscious--to keep us below him or her. To my mind, a true teacher walks by our side--next to our heart--and not in front of us leaving us to cough on the dust raised by their shoes.

          But then...what do I know? YMMV.
          • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

            Wed, November 26, 2008 - 9:02 AM
            sham, this is a great example, and I love that you just confirmed and solidified our points so gracefully / without intention. You taught us about the Tantric teaching for the explicit purpose of helping... using your knowledge to allow us to see ourselves. This embodies the true spirit of teaching and partnership, yet allows you to learn about yourself at the same time. A generous exchange that allows all to keep their own health.
            • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

              Thu, November 27, 2008 - 11:56 AM
              Hm. Yes, Interesting.

              If i go to someone with the attitude that i will be their Teacher... i can be pretty damn selfish too. I can perceive myself as somehow above the exchange. I can keep whole areas of myself sealed off - "because this is about YOU, dear, not about me". I can remain aloof and afloat, and i can claim the right to control and direct our interaction. I don't have to take emotional or personal risks, because my role is to create a space for YOU to take risks. I become a facilitator of your growth, and because you entrust yourself to me, that boosts my power.

              Yes. What Sham said about teachers.
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                Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

                Fri, November 28, 2008 - 3:29 AM
                Yes, that describes concisely the teacher role. It also alludes to the imbalance which occurs. Yes, "when the student is ready, the teacher arrives", but in interpersonal relationships there comes a point for a learned student where it's like, "oh no, not that again".
          • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

            Fri, November 28, 2008 - 12:10 PM
            Some time ago I discovered a very old text which was a translation of an older text of the explorations of a German woman who had traveled deep into 19th century India. This book was devoted to her spiritual journey which encompassed Tantra as it was then. As I am currently in Russia, I don't have access to this book or even remember the title.
            Back then at certain times there would be a call and potential acolytes would gather en mass for a Master to review. He would sense the few who were worthy of further instruction, and gather these unto him for this further instruction.
            These students would receive instruction for more than a year and suddenly under the Master's watchful eye, be placed in a position of sensory over stimulation. He would examine them carefully and from these choose only a few who reacted correctly from their innermost energies.
            Under his guidance, they would then begin the process of perfecting themselves as vessels for a God or Goddess to inhabit. This alone would take thousands of hours after which He would pair some students, who were deemed ready, together for further sacred instruction.
            Finally if and when the sacred moment arrived, these individual would actually receive the indescribable brightness and essence of a God and Goddesses divine visitation. After, because of the perfection of their respective vessels, they obtained incredible spiritual powers. Perhaps becoming minor deities in their own right. This tomb so intimidated and overwhelmed me I placed it aside for later review when I thought I was spiritually capable of ingesting it. That was 15 years ago. I feel I am still not ready. Whatever is going on in 'Neo Tantric ' doesn't seemed to be about perfecting the vessel. It's more about other stuff.
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              Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

              Fri, November 28, 2008 - 7:39 PM
              I appreciate the reference, even if you do not recall it. The description of the Gods and Goddesses was priceless to me.

              I have taken a look at a great number of mystic paths, Shamanism, Tantric Buddhism (both the traditional and the modern), Hinduism, Kabbalah, Sufism, etc. What I have found is that they are all one. The distinctions at the very core are so minute as to be non existent. I have also looked into the black, the white and the red paths and they two are all one. I have seen the light, the dark and the center and they all lead to one. As long as one is consciously on their path, doing the necessary work, overcoming the obstacles, they will arrive at the same luminous point. The difference between some of the paths is which lifetime this happens in and how far down the rabbit hole the person is willing to go. Weighing the costs and the benefits. It is not for everyone, many prefer to be force fed and some of them too find that they have been on their path all along. It is the choice of walking around on this earth unconscious or conscious, as a radiant being or an animal. Everyone has this choice, though some refuse to see.

              The neo-tantrics as you say are doing the work, they are just evolving the teachings to fit in with modern technologies, they are moving with the times and evolving the language so it reaches modern audiences. What turns people off of the traditional systems is the language. It is often foreign, ambiguous, inaccurate translations, which lose the meaning entirely and do not come from a place of experiential understanding due to the lack of knowledge on behalf of the translator. Many of the neo-tantrics have the experiential understanding, without getting caught up in the dogma. Instead of creating new dogma, many distill clarity.

              Every path has its merit. Every path is contributing to the whole. Some fall into traps, believing there way is the only way. There is no one way. Buddha didn't have a path which was predefined. The mystics and sages of the ages each traveled alone, in search of wisdom, encountering obstacles all for the understanding which the journey brings. The journey of such a seeker is intense, painful, turbulent and altogether rewarding, beautiful and fulfilling beyond measure. A true seeker knows that behind the classifications, all is one, all is interconnected and all are working together to share the same light concealed beneath the darkness.

              If a student is called to do the work and the master calls, the more the student resists, the more the student fights himself, for the teacher reflects the light and the dark which lie within as needed, opposing and harmonizing.

              We are all treasure hunters. Some seek physical gold, some seek alchemical gold. With alchemical gold, the less which is sought, the more that arrives. The less desired, the more gained. Different vibrations, different priorities.

              Perhaps the student is greedy for knowledge, perhaps disciplined, perhaps being primed as a potential Master or as your story refers, deity. The distinction isn't important, it really is "about the journey" and perhaps the movement from student to teacher, disciple to Master, Master to Guru. It is all stages, all levels, all personal and how you look at it. Some don't believe in spiritual paths at all. Some only believe in Science and find God through that. Some believe in math and the God is an equation. Some believe in Superheroes, some deify cartoons. it is all about how one interprets their perceptions, how they see the world. And it all somehow fits.

              All anyone has to do is "live in the question". "Seek and ye shall find". The search comes to the seeker. The answers are revealed, almost immediately, if only the question is asked. And a point comes, when the seeker ceases to seek, instead, the seeker becomes the knower and the knowing is all encompassing. The knower is greedy if he doesn't in turn offer it to other genuine seekers.
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            Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

            Fri, November 28, 2008 - 8:30 PM
            I agree with the teacher walking in the students shoes, they must necessarily do that to align to the student as needed to offer the lesson. It requires a great deal of rapport and opposition.

            When dealing with the ego and the lessons which create the "Aha" moments, is it not necessary to deal heavily with the ego and the fears that the person is experiencing? Does that not inevitably drop the student into some type of painful catharsis to wake them up out of their ignorance? Causing pain, anxiety, sorrow, anger or whatever repressed or stifled fears and emotions lied dormant in the unconscious which needed to be made conscious? Also making the teacher look like a total monster, when in reality, it was the only way the student could achieve the knowledge?

            Healing causes catharsis, especially to the emotionally wounded. It causes upheaval. The teacher has compassion, otherwise he wouldn't bother. Perhaps the teacher still has unresolved issues, then the teacher will be awakened by another. It will be painful, but learning will take place.
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      Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

      Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:04 PM
      I love that you understand your roles in each others lives and they work productively.

      I feel a resentment towards some of my teachers. Especially the one who sparks this conversation, the one who remains a mystery. I resent him because one minute I feel as though I'm being played for a fool and the next that I'm empowered.

      My last relationship, the teacher of all teachers, taught me everything he knew in a long drawn out span of time. Half the time he didn't want to, but it seemed I refused to stop searching. I succumbed to traps, then learned of his tricks. I learned to read people in a way which was most remarkable. In the end, I thought, perhaps in all his opposition, perhaps he sought me out and had something to learn from me as well. When I saw through his ego, his mask, I saw the child in him, I saw his life, I saw his fear. I saw all of the things which made him who he was. In knowing that he had seen the same in me all along, in knowing that he was not a perfect being, just as I wasn't, perhaps I placed him on the pedestal of "teacher", when really we were both learning. Yes he had gifts, but so did I. It just took nearly drowning in quicksand to realize them. And sometimes I accidently share them without realizing it. Something which seems small and insignificant to me, might just change another persons life forever.
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    Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

    Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:57 PM
    Has anyone transformed this type of scenario? Or is the real transformation simply the inner work which changes the perception of it? The inner work which, as "Osa" says determines the direction of the relationship? I envision something where two people come together in all their imperfections, beginning off balance, awkward, yet with potential - and if both parties are committed to their work, it all sort of aligns itself. What a beautiful vision. I see how our relationships are the outward manifestation of what is going on within, that to me is beautiful, even as it is frustrating. For when I make a positive step, it ripples back in the way I am treated and those steps are the key to moving forward, even with all the missteps and trips over words and actions.
    • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

      Thu, November 27, 2008 - 11:50 AM
      Hey you like being a student. It's a comfortable role. Less responsibility.
      But the most basic of basics is: We are mortal, our souls are not.
      The basic of knowledge is: Self discovery is more enduring than taught discovery.
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        Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

        Fri, November 28, 2008 - 3:38 AM
        Self discovery occurs in the long periods without teachers, without a doubt, and during. Discovery is endless and rich. The brilliance of the education is expansive.

        How then, does the learned student transcends the role of the student to become the provider of wisdom? What courageous step is necessary? Is it simply the trust in the knowledge gained? The sincere readiness to provide without fear? The confidence to lead?

        Is it the point where one encounters a person and sees through them, understanding their methods, reading their strategies, gaining insights so rapidly that they laugh at the methods, seeing through the logic? When everything around becomes transparent, the thoughts and motivations of others, the weaknesses and the strengths. When duality and fear have been transcended and the ego is no longer an obstacle, for the perception of the other's false self and true self are all perceivable?
        • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

          Fri, November 28, 2008 - 6:35 AM
          The point is not to master the teacher. It is to master the teaching.
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            Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

            Fri, November 28, 2008 - 6:45 PM
            Well, when one reaches the point where the teacher is mastered, the teacher has little else to teach. The teacher and student are one in knowledge. The teachings are mastered by the time the teacher becomes transparent and if they aren't, they are learned in rapid succession. This simply raises the student to the level of an equal, because the student too has knowledge which the teacher receives. Even in a student teacher relationship the is a ebb and flow, give and take dynamic. The teacher learns along the way. It is a process which brings two people into alignment. Once the two are aligned, they either go their separate ways or move together as equals.
        • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

          Fri, November 28, 2008 - 9:23 AM
          There is a book entitled "Snapping." It's actually about getting trapped in cults, but it explains an aspect of something called "catastrophe theory." The claim is that there are two ways you can realize that you are part of a group (or cult). This can be transposed to answer the "when does a student know that s/he has transcended the teacher?" question.

          Imagine, if you will, a mountain. On one side is a cliff with a huge drop. Next to the cliff is a gradual downward plane, an easy walk to the bottom. Although it may take longer to get to the bottom of the plane, both the plane and the cliff end up at the same level.

          So I would suggest that the student can realize that s/he has transcended the teacher suddenly ("I know that. Why teach it again? In fact, I know and can put into use all that the teacher has shared") or gradually ("This has been such a wonderful experience. But for a time, now, I've been feeling that I'm really not learning much new. Perhaps it's time to move on). The result is the same.

          According to the ideal of traditional Freudian psychoanalysis, when a patient comes in, the analyst should quickly understand what the real problem is. However, the analyst doesn't tell the patient because it would have no cathartic release, no "Aha!" moment that can change the life. Instead, by talking about things that come up in the patient's life, the analyst is supposed to slowly direct the patient so that the patient is about to come to the realization himself/herself. This could take many months or years. Then, just before the patient realizes the cause of the problem, the analyst is supposed to reveal it to the patient. This has to be timed just right, so that the patient won't reject it but will still get the cathartic experience. (This is supposed to cure the problem, but considering that so few people actually do psychoanalysis any more, perhaps it wasn't effective.)

          On a similar line of thought, a true teacher, IMO, should tell a student that there is nothing more to share and that the student should move on rather than waiting for the student to figure it out. For example, see Maugham's "The Razor's Edge." After teaching the student everything he could, the teacher sends the student away. Eventually, the student has an enlightenment. It's nothing the student didn't have, but the final act by the teacher makes the student aware of it.

          The goal of teaching, IMO, should be the empowerment of the student, not the teacher. The teacher should already be self-empowered.
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            Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

            Fri, November 28, 2008 - 8:10 PM
            How is cult defined in that book? How would you define a cult? Could all religions be considered cults? Could a classroom of children in a school be considered cult followers, fans at a concert? Where is the line between a cult and a group? Is the leader an icon? A self-proclaimed deity? A man or woman on a heavy ego trip? Someone caught up in a belief they believe is right above all others? A person who wants to get others wrapped up in their own view of the world? A guru? What is a Guru? One of my teachers told me guru literally means "light/dark", wikipedia confirmed it. My mother once brought up that it meant "teacher", other sources confirmed it. What may have seemed like a crazy tantric sex cult to an outsider is enlightening to an insider. What may have seemed like guru worship and deification to an outsider, taught the insiders powerful yogic breathing techniques and gave them vast knowledge. Who are the students, but seekers. Who are the teachers, but guides. As the ego is always trapped in duality, the EGO is the main difference between a cult in the negative sense and a spiritual group in the positive. For leaders come in all different shapes and sizes, necessarily, for people do and those who share light must harness their given tools to reach compatible seekers. It bothers me how much terminology gets distorted in western society.
            • Re: The difference between a teacher and a partner?

              Sat, November 29, 2008 - 9:34 AM
              Originally, the term "cult" was a non-pejorative referring to a religious group. Thus, there was the Jewish cult, the Christian cult, the cult of Diana, etc. However, today the term means a group that does anything negative as part of the group. At least, that's what we like to think. In actuality, it's more often "any group that believes in something I do not." In fact, the term "cult" has become such a catch word that I really don't like to use it any more. In the book I mentioned, the group they claimed was a cult and to which they were referring was ISKCON, however it could have related to the way people join any group--they either adopt the teachings suddenly, like falling over a cliff, or gradually, and slowly come to the realization that yes, they really are a believer.

              As I often tell people, "Wikipedia is a great place to start, but a terrible place to finish," and I would never list Wikipedia, by itself, as a source. Rather, I would use it to direct me to other sources. Why? Because anyone can enter or change entries easily and inaccurately. A friend of mine just got his doctorate from a university and told me that people who turned in papers with Wikipedia as a source had the papers returned either with an "F" or told to re-do the paper with real sources.

              The term "guru" has several meanings. The most common use of the term in the West, meaning tutor, teacher, or mentor, was only first used that way in the 1940s. The change to meaning anyone who is an expert only occurred in 1966 (referring to Marshall McLuhan).

              Until your post, I had never seen the word Guru as literally meaning "light/dark." As far as I know, the traditional direct translation was gu=darkness and ru=remover. Hence, a guru is a remover of darkness, where "darkness" is a metaphor for avidya, ignorance.

              Spiritually, however, the term "guru" goes far deeper than merely being a teacher, expert, or even darkness remover. Theoretically, the spiritual goal of an individual should be the experience of union with everything, something often called "enlightenment." Taking the term "everything" to heart, this means, partially, union with God. However, the ancient teachings as I have learned them is that we already have that union, we simply need to become aware of it. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it sounds. Until we can open to that reality--become our own breaker of darkness--we need someone who can direct us. This someone, theoretically, should already be enlightened, a literal god-on-earth. This person is a guru.

              Upon first meeting with such a true guru, he or she is, theoretically, instantly supposed to be able to understand exactly what you need to spiritually advance. Thus, a guru's instructions to one follower may be completely different from instructions given to another. The goal, is to develop your own link to the Divine or enlightenment, at which time the external guru is no longer needed.

              This is not some pie-in-the-sky philosophy, but rather a tangible experience. All of the theory and philosophy and practices have the goal of opening up your channels so that the magico-psycho-sexual energy can easily flow through the vortices that transverse the multiple layers (koshas or sheathes) that are within the individual. If you're reading this far, you probably recognize this as allowing the kundalini energy to move up to the crown chakra. That's as far as most people talk about. In fact, as the commercials say, "But wait! There's more!"

              When the kundalini reaches and charges the crown chakra, that chakra inverts, pouring its contents over you. This consists of a substance that is described as "oily" feeling. That is, you experience a true anointing with oil that, for the moment changes you. Physically, it instantly changes the quality of all of your secretions: tears, sweat, saliva, lubricating fluids, ejaculations (male and female) become sweet to the taste. It reminds me of a diluted honey, but YMMV. This ain't imagination--it's physically real.

              When inverted, this substance, known as amrita [not to be confused with the neo-Tantric interpretation of amrita being female sexual ejaculate] also charges two chakras within the head (there are actually hundreds of chakras, not just the few usually described). Together, they allow you to experience and make use of unity with the Divine. And, when considered as one, they are known as...the guru chakra.

              There are different types of mantras, but the ones that are supposed to help you spiritual evolve (as opposed to being worshipful, ceremonial, magickal, etc.) traditionally must be given to you by a guru. Getting it out of a book or using someone else's, according to one book I have, is "tantamount to Brahmanicide." Now, that's a bit overdoing it as far as I'm concerned. But the point is, such a transformative mantra must come directly from the breaker of darkness, the representative of God. Initially, this comes from a person who has such qualities...your guru. Eventually, you want to be able to make that contact yourself--open your guru chakra--and come up with your own transformative mantras.

              Thus, IMO, the term "guru" means a transformative manifestation of God. There are some (perhaps most) who use the title without cause, but there are some real gurus out there. Don't ask me who--part of each person's life is the learning of discrimination--accepting the real and discarding the false.

              Years ago, a friend of mine was a member of a group that was quite large and which many had called a negative cult. After years of being a follower of the teachings of the leader, she finally got a chance to meet him. When she did, he said just one thing to her: "You don't need me or this group any more." Although she still followed the teachings, she never went to any of the meetings again. Was he a negative cult leader or a true guru? I never met him and I don't know.

              But to me, the sign of a true teacher is that he or she wants to lose you as a student. That is, to my mind the true teachers shares what he or she knows in such a way that a student can understand it and make use of it. This empowers the students and means that the student no longer needs this person as a teacher. The teaching may be anything from "read this book" to "do this work" to even things that we find detestable. After all, if it is true that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, then it must be true also that when the student is ready to get ripped off, the teacher who will rip them off will appear.
  • Unsu...
     

    A dilemma

    Sat, December 27, 2008 - 11:07 PM
    Since I didn't want to start a new thread of a related vein, I thought I would add to this one.

    This one person, the one who spawned this discussion has thoroughly left me in a state of lightness and love. Yes, I found lightness and love on my own through traversing the darkness of fear and discovering a light strong enough to overcome a great deal of it. The very night that occurred, I knew that as far as I was concerned, he was the only person in my waking (and dreaming) sphere I wanted to be with. He, the one who beckoned me in visions which occurred long before I knew him.

    Now I feel this pull to express what I feel, which is an enormous risk. The timelessness of his eyes, the sensual softness of his lips, his divine skin, I cannot bear being so close to him and not being able to reach out and touch him, to kiss the lips which melt me into the vast waters of decadent bliss. It's like a museum from hell, a museum filled with mystical wonders, sensual delights, connection and intimacy, creativity, serenity, spiritual experiences, sharing and communing.

    One could say sure, I could find all that on my own, maybe share some aspects of that with another. My response is that I have spent my whole life getting to a point where I could experience the above wonders. I know them, I can create them for myself, alone. I share meditation, dance, singing, creativity, spiritual experiences, bliss and ecstasy with myself. I experience beingness and love in abundance, as I never have before. I have connected on many levels with him, I have seen the depths and the surface, thus I know, for once that there is a brilliant compatibility I want to tap into more regularly. I am currently friends with him, but not being able to kiss his divine lips is absolute torture!

    My only fear is crossing the line and losing the beauty of getting to know him, by expressing what I feel. There is mutual attraction, chemistry and so forth. We have shared moments in the past, but circumstances are such that their are risks involved due to proximity, social etiquette and prejudices.

    I have never felt this way about another person. I have never risked as much as I have already to know him, to connect. I have been playing it cool, holding back, waiting for as long as I can bear. Meanwhile, i meet other men, but they don't move me. I require a certain substance beyond the superficial, beyond mere physical attraction, beyond anything I have experienced with the majority of men. I also know a great many evolved men. I know what we are capable of sharing with each other is special, unique and precious.

    It isn't just about him or me either. I don't have to put him on a pedestal, I see him on multiple levels. From the highest to the lowest. I overcame my thought attachments to him, overcame my emotional attachment, now I am left with communicating and connecting with him on profound levels which are lovely and beyond words. It is really the connection which happens when he and I meet on these breathtaking levels, the oneness of the connection. The kisses which stop time. The way our eyes dissolve boundries or speak the language of the soul. From afar, I see into his eyes and know where he's at.

    No one else comes close.

    How much would you risk for something which moved you in this way? I ask you as I ask me. What if it wasn't returned, would that not be devastating?
    • Re: A dilemma

      Sun, December 28, 2008 - 12:16 AM
      Your refuge is in purity.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A dilemma

        Sun, December 28, 2008 - 1:10 AM
        Interesting thought. I have traveled the spectrum of purity and its opposite, experienced the nuances, light and darkness of it. I would have to say that perhaps that is the case. Perhaps many of the other options lack a certain essence. Perhaps that essence is something which I require. I love passion, intensity, heat, etc and I now know how to create them within me through creativity. Through that energy, I have the inner power to bring that to my relationships. I don't fear it, but I do seek it through the best intentions. I have been with more pleasure seekers then I care to admit and they lack substance.

        I don't see him as being perfect, no one is. His darkness exists and I have witnessed some of it. I know what I like, perhaps it tends to be those that flow on the higher levels, those whose feet barely touch the ground, even as I am grounded in soulful expression and insight.

        I am a woman and it took me years to embrace the softness, the sensitivity, the generosity and nurturing energy. I spent years in coldness after years of excess. After experiencing so much degradation, most certainly, purity is a requirement. Not even purity itself, for I have traveled light and dark and know the gifts of both, but most certainly an integrated connectedness which at its very core is pure.

        It took me ages to find inner love, to embrace the light within me. To share in something with which combined energies didn't generate some degree of light and connectivity would be a dishonor to my body, heart, soul and mind. This is why I have chosen celibacy time and time again. This is why the partners I have been with over the last several years all had lessons for me and taught me something on one of the levels. So I could integrate within and know what I was seeking in a lover when I found it.

        I am committed to my work, my writing, my creative projects. Only after that comes a need for another. Just as a musician has his first love of music, so it is with my will and vision. I take these things very seriously. I have had all the pleasure seeking I could want and feel like though I have needs and desires, it is not worth sacrificing my integrity, nor my other energies for something which lacks depth and connection. It takes too much energy to initiate a fling or something fleeting. It is too much of a roller coaster ride of unnecessary mental and emotional expenditure.

        I know that if it isn't him, the one for me will come. If I have to continue to be alone, I will do so just as I have for much of my life. My philosophy on sexuality and relationships is outside of the norm in that upon first meeting someone I know whether it has potential or is a waste of time and most are incompatible. I also have had visions of those who were substantial, potent and meaningful, even when they were brief.

        I take pleasure in my friendships, I enjoy male energy and I am learning to enjoy female energy. I don't have to be sexual with someone to connect with them. Sure it can be lovely, but it involves too many risks. Sexuality has gotten to a point in my life where it has to necessarily be sacred. I am not going to just be with anyone. If one cannot connect with me on the higher levels, there is no way he is getting near me on the lower levels. Intellectual stimulation, heart connection, soul connection, communication, eye contact, warmth and so much more. There are so many layers to presence and connectedness and with the majority of men, they have only scratched the surface.

        This one, he has shown me a single person can connect on all the different levels and the fact that he was willing to share that with me was priceless. The rest, well, they couldn't speak to me in the language of the soul, the heart, the body, the mind. One, but not all. My knowledge of intimacy on the varying levels does not mean the other party is capable of or interested in it.
        • Re: A dilemma

          Sun, December 28, 2008 - 8:55 AM
          "It took me ages to find inner love, to embrace the light within me. To share in something with which combined energies didn't generate some degree of light and connectivity would be a dishonor to my body, heart, soul and mind. This is why I have chosen celibacy time and time again. This is why the partners I have been with over the last several years all had lessons for me and taught me something on one of the levels. So I could integrate within and know what I was seeking in a lover when I found it.

          "I am committed to my work, my writing, my creative projects. Only after that comes a need for another. Just as a musician has his first love of music, so it is with my will and vision. I take these things very seriously. I have had all the pleasure seeking I could want and feel like though I have needs and desires, it is not worth sacrificing my integrity, nor my other energies for something which lacks depth and connection. It takes too much energy to initiate a fling or something fleeting. It is too much of a roller coaster ride of unnecessary mental and emotional expenditure."

          What is love? Is it simply commitment? Is it simply time spent together? I would suggest that there is more. It is the formula of 1+1=3. The missing 1 in that formula is the relationship itself. In order to manifest or actualize that relationship, I would contend that one thing is required: complete and total surrender to the other.

          For a musician, as you describe, that requires complete and total surrender to the music in her/his soul. There is a story that Wagner, while riding through the Black Forest with some friends, suddenly started shouting that the carriage must stop. Then he ran out of the carriage and said to the others, "Don't you hear it? Can't you hear the music?" But they could not. They had not surrendered to it. He had surrendered to the music.

          Michelangelo was asked how he was able to create the Pieta. He said that he found a sculpture that had already been made--poorly--and let out what was inside. He had surrendered to his art. He was able to hear the stone sing. He could help the beauty within be revealed because he loved his art.

          But let's be real. A forest cannot return love. Music cannot physically touch your body. A rock feels no pain and cannot love. Therefore, the surrender to their art was one way.

          To really get that mysterious extra "1" into the equation of love with another, I would contend that both partners must surrender themselves totally, passionately, intensely to the other--with no expectations. No expectation of returned love. No expectation of returned passion. No expectation of returned intensity. And with every ounce of returned love, passion, and intensity, the value of surrender is made manifest ten-fold, and the growth of that extra "1" becomes stronger, and the 1+1=3 equation becomes an overwhelming reality.

          "If I have to continue to be alone, I will do so just as I have for much of my life. My philosophy on sexuality and relationships is outside of the norm in that upon first meeting someone I know whether it has potential or is a waste of time and most are incompatible. I also have had visions of those who were substantial, potent and meaningful, even when they were brief."

          Wow. I have so much to say...

          I don't know if the following is true, but, for the moment, imagine it is. In our lives, for everything that happens, either we are are totally responsible (call this "at cause") or what happens to us is only the result of things that happen to us (call this "at effect"). We don't have a lot of money because we were born poor, we didn't get a good education, we didn't have the right opportunities, there was prejudice against us because we were too young or too old or too fat or too slim or came from the wrong place or were overqualified or our skin was too white, black, yellow, brown, green, purple, or something else. One of more of these may, in fact, be true. They are all good reasons. Another word for reasons: excuses. They all indicate that we are not in control.

          If, on the other hand, we take control of our lives and accept the truth that if someone else did something, so can we, that we are self-actualized, we are in control, we are empowered and at cause.

          So where does anyone wish to be? Empowered, self-actualized, having what you want: at cause, or having lots of excuses--I mean reasons--for being disempowered, unhappy, wanting, unactualized: at effect?

          IMO, the way to become empowered is to take the attitude that we are moving from being at effect to being at cause. The beginning step is to accept the belief that there is no failure, only feedback. If something didn't work, why? What do we need to do differently in the future to bring what we want to us.

          A: "I wish I had a girlfriend."
          B: "What do you do in the evenings?"
          A: "I stay home and watch TV."
          B: "How will you meet anyone that way?"
          A: "I dunno. It will just happen when the time is right."

          BZZZZZZZZZZ. Oh, A, I'm sorry. You lose. Take a seat on the "I'm a dumb loser train" and thanks for playing Life.

          We go out. We try. Our relationships fails. We hurt. We have two choices. The at effect choice: "I'm a loser and I'll hide out for awhile, then I suppose I'll try again and I'll just get hurt again." The at cause choice: "This really hurts. But I know that someday I'll be over it and ready to try again. Now, I'm going to look and see what I did wrong so next time I'll be closer to what I really want."

          We try. We get hurt. We try again. We get hurt again. We can make the pain stop by either not trying (avoid being at effect--which actually keeps us at effect) or we look at why the relationship didn't work and bring what we actually need into our lives (being at cause).

          By the way, most people realize that they could have something with another person within ten minutes of meeting them. You're not outside the norm in this. Where you are outside the norm is that you acknowledge this fact rather than ignore it. I would say that working with reality is a good thing.

          The unconscious mind is a curious thing. It doesn't know the difference between reality and imagination. Imagine...
          walking to the refrigerator
          opening the door
          pulling out a drawer
          taking out a lemon
          feeling its cold, slightly bumpy skin
          smelling its sweet smell
          walking with the lemon over to a counter
          reaching into a drawer and taking out a very sharp knife
          cutting the lemon in half
          seeing some of the juice come out
          the smell of the lemon becoming more intense
          using the knife to slice one of the halves of the lemon
          putting down the knife and picking up one of the lemon quarters
          bringing the piece of lemon to just below your nose
          smelling the intense sweet/tartness of the lemon
          feeling some of the juice dripping on your hand
          and then...
          take a big bite of the lemon...just chew it up.

          Chance are, the amount of saliva increased in your mouth. That's not because of anything physical. That's because your imagine worked through your unconscious mind to create a reality that produced an increase in saliva in preparation for eating and digestion.

          This means that what you put into your unconscious mind effects every aspect of your being. It also means that although you may technically be alone, YOU'RE NEVER ALONE. You can have all of the incredible psycho/sexual/emotional/biological/spiritual effects of being with another when you are by yourself. This is why the practice of laya yoga (sometimes called kundalini yoga) can be so powerful.

          Passion. Surrender. Intensity. Love. Touch. We each need this daily. It keeps us juicy and lubricated. Without it we dry up emotionally and creatively.

          </rant>
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: A dilemma

            Mon, December 29, 2008 - 3:35 PM
            Its the lack of touch that frustrates me the most, I think. The lack of connection. Yes, I can "have it all" alone, but that is the one thing I have wanted more then anything and been missing out on. Of course I love all the things that go along with it, but the whole lacking a partner thing really makes it difficult.

            I am certain that it is far easier for a man to find a partner then a woman. Beautiful, intelligent, warm, sensual, passionate, interesting, exciting, hot, sexy women are everywhere. Finding that sort of thing in a man, not so easy. Finding a man who moves me is one of the most difficult quests I have ever gone on. Let alone finding a man like who isn't searching for "just a fuck". You say let go of expectations, but for me to reach a certain level of ecstasy, it requires a connetion which builds in degrees, doesn't just happen one night. And I'm sorry, but I want more then a one time thing, I don't care what anyone says. I'm tired of constantly questing after the perfect "cookie", eating it, having it be less then I'd hoped for, oops all gone, digesting it and it being over with. There just aren't enough compatible men in the world, really, there aren't. IT ISN"T WORTH IT!

            I go out. I meet men. A certain number of them are somewhat evolved, I won't look twice at someone who isn't. Of that certain number, many of them have partners, which I'm just not stepping into, open or not. Drama isn't my thing. The rest, well, some I have tasted to varying degrees, others there is no mutual attraction. Lovely people, wouldn't want to f*** or date them. Men have issues just like women and I'm also more potently aware of them.

            So yes, I am jaded on the male front. There is only one person in this town that moves me. Sure I am attracted to a few others, but they lack the depth or the energy, or the sensuality, or the intellect, or the silent communication, or the raw power that this particular connection holds. This is a connection which even though we aren't still together, is EXTREMELY strong. We communicate from miles away, on many levels and it is TORTURE to not be able to go deeper. Were it just superficial, it would be easy to let it go.

            I cannot do superficial anymore.

            So yes, all I have is my art and this amazing person, who is often VERY close in proximity who I cannot reach out to in the ways I need to. AGONIZING.

            • Re: A dilemma

              Mon, December 29, 2008 - 11:53 PM
              I read what you have written and I can understand part of your particular problem: time. You are wanting this person and yet something (maybe yourself, his situation, his orientation, fear of peer judgements, some combination and beyond...) is holding you back from just telling him how you feel and what it is that you want. There is nothing for that other than to take the step or live a life of regret. And yet, it may be that in doing so, something is destroyed, lost forever. Patience is a great teacher of perspective. After the passage of significant time, you may find yourself laughing at what you wanted in the past, while you may lament something you let slip by but never knew what quality it was until many years have given you the experience to judge better. What can you do? You can wait, and see what happens. You can build a lifetime friendship. You can go for it all and ride out the possible whirlwind. You can turn away and close a door to a situation you have said is difficult due to "proximity, social etiquette and prejudices". Perhaps he is already in a relationship and happily. Perhaps the is a different race/religion/age. Perhaps a professor. The thing is, there is a way to approach this person and tell them what you feel without having to cause their world to crash around them. And that requires great forethought, planning, compassion and courage.

              As for you saying that there are not enough compatible men in the world, I simply do not buy it. Yes, PEOPLE of quality and integrity sometimes seem hard to find. And I admit that as I get older, I sometimes feel like there are even less available mates with the desired qualities. HOWEVER, as we get older, many of us learn and grow in ways that turn people who were once not someone you would not wish to spend time with into someone who we desire to be around. The number of people that I know who are of a quality has increased as I have gotten older, it has not shrunk. And part of that is that as I have gotten older, I have continued to work on my own spirituality and self, becoming more of the person that these wonderful people wish to spend time with themselves.

              And for every woman who think that men have it easier in finding quality mates, there are an equally large number of men who think it is the other way around. Try finding a woman who isn't just in it for a fuck or who are desperately seeking mates cause they are biologically and sociologically programmed to do so. Try to find a woman who isn't sure that they can make their man better without considering what really bugs them about their mate is that which they are not accepting in themselves. Please do not make ridiculous and unsupported statements about there not being enough compatible mates in the world.

              Perhaps agony is a lesson you need in life and so you are getting it now. Not all of us are teachers all the time. Sometimes we are merely a prop to the universal teacher's lesson. Perhaps you need to have your heart broken or maybe you are being nudged to culture patience and letting go. Or maybe tomorrow you'll get up and storm the gates of hell. Who can discern how the fractals of space and time are turning? I find intuition is usually my best spiritual GPS for that terrain.

              There are many mates out there. You are not likely to find them in the usual places if you seek true quality and evolution. And they do not necessarily appear just because we want one now.

              It does actually work that if:
              you speak to spirit with an openness of body/heart/mind/soul
              and
              state your desires with fully conscious intention
              and
              allow the universe to give you what-you-want in the way-that-it-wants to give it to you
              that you may get what you want.

              I just hope that once you have it, you really do want it in its entirety.

              Still, in the throes of love, words are a poor salve for the aching heart and usually put away until the we've had our fill of delirium.
    • Re: A dilemma

      Sun, December 28, 2008 - 12:55 AM
      It is not a matter of return so much as the ability to love and feel compassion on the highest level. The more time you spend loving the person who is not your lover, the better you will know if can spend an eternity with them. Cause some folks will bore you to death in the long run and need to know that or have uber-communication constantly (which you should anyway).

      No love can hold us close who also makes us cry with ennui. It makes one feel like hermetic vows may be your best bet. And yet the love is undeniable.

      Ahhh-ummmm.

      Ah sweet goddess embrace me!
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A dilemma

        Sun, December 28, 2008 - 1:17 AM
        Thank you for your words, well stated. I appreciate your perspective.

        Interesting insights...

        Hmm...

    • Re: A dilemma

      Sun, December 28, 2008 - 7:23 AM
      < No one else comes close.

      How much would you risk for something which moved you in this way? I ask you as I ask me. What if it wasn't returned, would that not be devastating? >

      I have a similar situation - and so far for me it has been learning about unconditional love, because as long as you worry about love not being returned, it is still conditional love.

      I wonder if unconditional love is not one of the hardest things you can learn.
      • Re: A dilemma

        Sun, December 28, 2008 - 8:18 AM
        It's as easy as turning on a light bulb.
        Realizing it's true worth is difficult because people love long self indulgent explanations about how they have to 'nurture' and protect their ego.
        Truth is sometimes someone can be really hurt badly early in life and can't trust. They have an excuse.
        But if we are whole, we only need to think about the happiness of another and stop. Right there. Not another thought.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: A dilemma

          Sun, December 28, 2008 - 12:30 PM
          "but if we are whole, we only need to think of the happiness of another and stop."

          Thank you for that, it makes sense.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A dilemma

        Sun, December 28, 2008 - 12:27 PM
        You are right. Unconditional love is difficult, I am learning it now. My awareness of it comes in waves. I understand how conditional love has affected me negatively over the years and am striving to overcome those tendencies.

        In the end, I'm not really that afraid of losing this connection, because I know if it doesn't work, I still have myself and eventually another will move me.

        I write long drawn out descriptions of my feelings because I am deep and I am a flowing river, writing is what I do, even though it gets me in trouble sometimes. Just as I express myself here, I was silent before, so all that was held in finds its outlet.

        I have ultimately decided that now may NOT be the time for words. Now is the time to just embrace the moment, embrace beingness, embrace silent communication and to be authentic. I don't have to speak the obvious. I just have to maintain awareness and embody my truth.

        Ultimately the best I can do to honor the love of another is to honor myself, to continue being present and doing the inner work and outer work which brings me the greatest fulfillment. If it is returned, great, if not, my life still has a remarkable amount of richness to it.

        The urgency was because I was overflowing.
        • Re: A dilemma

          Mon, December 29, 2008 - 1:26 PM
          Lydia

          I struggled with this question for 45 years, and only recently met someone who I believe is compatible and with whom I will have a sacred sexual relationship. I do note that I had percieved a lack of support in my life from my father, my extended family, the church, and the community at large. Part of that was due to circumstance (parents divorced and father percieved my support as a chore, church rejected me as a homosexual, etc). Part was due to not knowing or understanding that I could survive without the support of others. I am quite sure that this is not unique to me, and am almost surprised to find out at age 45 that I felt so unsupported all this time. What is clear is that I am learning to escape judgment and to be non-judgmental.
          • Re: A dilemma

            Mon, December 29, 2008 - 11:19 PM
            "So yes, I am jaded on the male front. There is only one person in this town that moves me. Sure I am attracted to a few others, but they lack the depth or the energy, or the sensuality, or the intellect, or the silent communication, or the raw power that this particular connection holds. This is a connection which even though we aren't still together, is EXTREMELY strong. We communicate from miles away, on many levels and it is TORTURE to not be able to go deeper. Were it just superficial, it would be easy to let it go.

            I cannot do superficial anymore.

            So yes, all I have is my art and this amazing person, who is often VERY close in proximity who I cannot reach out to in the ways I need to. AGONIZING."

            FUCK. THAT SOUNDS LIKE A FRIENDSHIP I HAVE THAT SCARES ME TO DEATH SOMETIMES.

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