Greetings everyone,
I recently read The Question to Life's Answers and liked Steven's approach so much that I checked out his website which guided me here. I hope everyone is enjoying their day,
Steve
I recently read The Question to Life's Answers and liked Steven's approach so much that I checked out his website which guided me here. I hope everyone is enjoying their day,
Steve
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 12, 2008 - 2:04 PMYes, indeed I am enjoying my day.
Welcome to doingnothing. :)
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 12, 2008 - 3:58 PMi just came back from an hour pulling weeds in the garden (ok, it's nothing BUT weeds at this point) and then taking a shower. nothing like spiders falling off you as you stand by the phone to encourage a rinse-off.
it's not quite sunny here today but beautiful anyway. i went out this morning and took photos of my view - will post that in the photos section.
i'm sore and tired, and quite content.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 2:08 PMI also recently read The Question to Life's Answers. While I was reading it, I was thinking about my need to consume these books, one after another. Toward the end, Steven questioned the need to read yet another book. He sure had me pegged.
Karin -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 3:06 PMha, well.....it's a tough sell to be an author who encourages people to stop reading his own books.
lucky for him, there are those of us who do not take direction well. :-)
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 4:57 PMI also have that need to consume these books and videos also, I thought it was because I wanted to understand something but when I listened to John Sherman he made it very clear to me that its not about an understanding but a seeing, always here, always avalible. I thought before that it was something I was completely unfamiliar with because I had the idea that if i would happen upon it everything would be finished (think i got that from Ug krishnamurti, he said something like: if you ever have the courage to touch life, you will never know what hit you, everything man has ever thought and felt will be swept away and nothing will replace it). So I thought that I had to understand something or see something once and for all and that that was why I had the need to consume these books. But now i dont feel that way anymore, I dont feel like I have to understand anything to see what is here, but I still like to listen to these things, so I was not completely right when I thought it was because i wanted to understand something.
I kind of feel like it is just to postpone actually seeing for myself what is here, and that maby I was not all that interested in it as i thought. Not to say that im not interested at all, but not like i thought I was when I was reading book after book thinking that if i only get what I still haven't gotten I will see for myself, beacuse if i could that would be all i ever wanted. But now when the idea that I can not see for myself is gone, i still mostly attend to just passing time in different ways.
I hope you all don't mind me sharing with so much text.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sun, March 16, 2008 - 7:10 AMI don't mind at all; I've had much the same experience. Although still in the consumption phase, I'm getting tired of it. It's like any addiction. After awhile, it doesn't work anymore.
A few years ago I decided I wanted to write creatively. Every time I sat down to write I felt uncomfortable, so, rather than write, I started reading books about writing. The books said that you just have to sit down and write, and I'd think, yes, I agree, and then I'd go find another book!
Karin -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sun, March 16, 2008 - 10:26 AMmy ex years ago traveled to naropa institute to hear the great william burroughs. what did he have to say to aspiring writers? "you have to write".
this is eminently useful for practical skills like playing the piano, but what can awareness ever refer to except itself? not to say you can't in some sense hone awareness, as with meditation, but it just seems to me that that pursuit in itself is a bit like a hampster cage, a lovely hall of mirrors that ultimately doesn't have any place to go (except further into itself). sorta like life! -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Mon, March 17, 2008 - 10:21 AMI got the idea from John Sherman that the thing with finding out what is true, what is really here, what you really are is alot like what you have to do to write; "you have to write".
You have to look for yourself. And not caring about being spiritually correct, like what you have learnt about self or there is no self or it's just a thought and there's nothing to do, nowhere to go. Even if it's true, being spiritually correct wont satisfy you anyway. He says that the only thing that will ever satisfy you is to see for yourself what you are, because that is the question we really care about. And I can really agree with that. In so many ways I have tried to find out who I am, or becoming something that will not be so uncomfortable, in spiritaual ways and in unspiritual ways. When I was about 18 I thought that a pleasing answer to that question would be to see myself from the outside, see myself as I see other people because they seem more real. And I did that by looking at myself in the mirror trying to see myself as someone else. I tried really hard with that, I had alot of angst about it because it was not working. I could not find anything to hold onto in the mirror. I just ended up with hate for my own reflection.
I think Steven writes about trying to be something, always becoming. John Sherman says that the only way to stop that, the only thing that will satisfy, is to look directly at ourself, whatever it is that we think is ourself and see the truth about what is there, and actually get a taste of our own being.
I guess that that is what is hard when you are hooked on the passive way of life and prefer to read about it and think about it and postpone the moment when you are on your own. It is uncomfortable like when you try to write something instead of reading or reading about writing (I also get uncomfortable when I try to write something). -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Mon, March 17, 2008 - 6:19 PMoh, i dunno....
i mean, i understand what you're saying, certainly, but after years and years of looking into this "who am i", it ends up that we think what we *have* to think, that there is no genuine objectivity, IOW. the wiring and conditioning are there.
so maybe the whole question is bogus, and the questioning as well. not that the question doesn't still arise - it's a given - but the answer doesn't matter anymore. without a goal to achieve, then, with no answer to the question, there's just life. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 5:50 AMi don't think there ís any way of getting rid of the wiriring and conditioning, and that is not the goal of the question, it is just to get at taste of our own being that is not wired and conditioned.
i just can't accept that way of looking at things, that when there is no goal to achieve there is just life. Im sure it is true in a way, but I can't just say that as if it was enough. I dont think that that is all there is to Steven either. There is something about him and it is not just in his topics of conversation. Maby it is true and enough that when there is no goal in life there is just life, for someone who already has a taste of their own being, or have had so many tastes that they trust it completely to always be there. Maby it is a way to face you with life, to get a taste of it. Now i am just speculating, or guessing...
When I met Steven I had the feeling that there was something there that was what I had longed for without even knowing it, and it felt very deep, deeper than anything I remember having felt before. And then just saying life as it is, it is not enough. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 7:27 AMI understand your sentiments. I wonder if giving up, doing nothing, would sink me deeper into my victim mentality. After a sabbatical in which I seemed to be waiting for some miracle to happen, I am back to working like crazy, feeling like I'm getting nowhere. It would be really easy for me to sink back into self pity.
Somehow it helps knowing that other people feel the same confusion, or the self loathing that you described when you looked into a mirror.
Gotta go - work is calling.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 10:25 AMPersonally I'd say whatever's in your heart that you really want to experience or achieve, you just have to go for it. Life is too damn short to do otherwise. Though frequently it appears that when we do finally get what we thought we wanted something else appears. Either that or something gets in our way - or we think there's something in our way. If there is an obstacle for you - can you pin down what it is?
I've read your posts and I'm unclear as to what you're looking for. Do you have an idea of what that is? Could you share it? -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 1:45 PMWhat am I looking for? Don't know.
As a child, I loved to draw. I wanted to be an artist in high school, but I gave up the idea later. I got interested in the performing arts in my early twenties, took dance classes and loved it. Walked out of the dance studio just when I started to get good at it.
I spent twenty three years working for the Federal government, satisfying my need for financial security at the expense of internal security, or sanity, for that matter. During one period, I felt like I was suffocating, rushing my kid to and from day care, working, and, on top of it, going to school. All of this done in order to achieve a lifestyle I thought was necessary. Occasionally, at the end of the day, I would go into my son's preschool classroom and sit down at one of those little tables in one of those teeny chairs, my knees all the way up to my chest. I'd grab a crayon and start scribbling with the rest of the toddlers, and, for a moment, feel like I could breathe. Now that I look back, coloring with the toddlers seems like one of the few things I did that made any sense.
I struggle with the need to make a living without compromising myself, as I did before. Some sneaking suspicion tells me that the common denominator in all the insanity is me.
What am I looking for? It might be nice to feel comfortable in my own skin. And sometimes, I actually do.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 2:24 PMKarin >> I struggle with the need to make a living without compromising myself, as I did before. <<
Is the motive that wanted financial security (whatever that means) a part of you? If so, wouldn't you compromise that part to not pursue financial security? If not, then why do you think the financial security part is not a part of you, whereas the part that wants to color you believe apparently is a part of you?
This is not meant as a criticism. I am just curious how you know what *is* you and what is not. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 7:42 AMI'm not sure how to answer that. Would financial security or insecurity be a part of me, or just an aspect of my life? This brings to mind something I heard John Sherman say in his videotaped conversations, you are not your life.
Nevertheless, I think it is material to say that self esteem, or lack thereof, plays a part. Victim mentality, maybe. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 9:36 AMKarin >> Would financial security or insecurity be a part of me, or just an aspect of my life? <<
Good question. If there is no "me", then security can neither be a part of you nor an aspect of your life. If there is no "me", then the desire to paint or dance does not belong to a "you" either.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Tue, March 18, 2008 - 3:27 PMMaby you should just quit your job and do something entierly different. Twenty three years sounds like a long time doing something that doesn't feel right (I got the impression that it did not).
Personally I really dislike being an employee, I have a hard time with someone else owning my time, I think it is stressful just knowing that someone else owns my time. And I have hardly ever lived like that, all the time I have been working for someone together makes not even a year. I'll rather be poor and working some here, some there. But the best would be not being poor and still not having to work for someone.
I think what seems to be the best option is starting your own buisness and that is what I am planning to do. Maby you could do something like that? Another option that I could consider is working for a friend who respects you and let you own your own time.
If I was working for myself I could imagine working harder and having more energy because even if I am working it is still my own time. I dont know if I would even consider it to be work if it was still my own time.
I don't have an education (yet) and nothing special to offer so my idea is to sell clothes and other stuff at marketplaces. I think that would suit me very well, it is not every day, I like to travel, I even dislike not to travel, I could bring my dog.
You probably have a totally different starting point. And probably even more possibilities than I have.
Just a tip. Maby you are not interested in starting your own buisness. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 8:26 AMActually, I am interested in my own business, and I understand your sentiments. I have a job in which I have the option to accept a shift or not. It's low paying, but it temporarily brings in money. I see that ending when I get something else in place.
I did some housepainting (interior, exterior) for a few months last year and found that I enjoyed it. The physical labor seemed to be very helpful to this creaky body. (I used to sit at a computer all day long, and I can't do that anymore.) I've been playing with decorative painting techniques. I'd like to do some of that, and I've been working on getting some marketing materials together.
Ultimately, I don't see myself doing one thing. I don't know if it's an inability to commit or just a desire to go with the flow, whatever that is. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 4:13 PMkarin - if you like painting, and pursue that economically, consider painting interiors with clay-based paints. it's non-toxic, low-impact (if you do it right), kinda newish, fad-wise, and creates the warmest, most beautiful interiors i've ever seen.
i worked with a friend one summer doing that, and while the work was physically strenuous (as it's quite a bit heavier than paint, and requires more coats) the work itself and the results were very satisfying. this friend mixed her own, found her own clays (which is the no-impact part, to collect them w/o damaging the environment), but you can buy them commercially too.
just a thought.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 7:21 AMThanks for the suggestion. I *would* like to work with environmentally friendly materials.
Did your friend actually go out and dig up clay? If so, did she add pigments?
I'd to learn lime plaster, too. I've only seen pictures, but it looks beautiful.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 9:48 AMyes, she digs her own clays - her specialty is to find clay on a person's own property....and she does it in such a way that the landscape is barely impacted.
the dyes she bought commercially for the most part. there are many natural sources to choose from, but all are fairly earthy. she also had some secret for finding mica - i never learned what it was - which adds a lot of sheen to the plasters.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 19, 2008 - 9:28 AMylle >> the best would be not being poor and still not having to work for someone. I think what seems to be the best option is starting your own buisness <<
Hmmm. Typically, the people you work for when you own your business are called customers or clients, instead of bosses, but you still work for someone else.
I only know of two ways of making money without working for someone else: gambling, which includes any sort of trading in financial instruments, and rent seeking, which is essentially lobbying the government for special dispensation. In both cases you are making money by taking it away from someone else. In the latter case you are doing it without their consent. Of course you could also live on charitable contributions, but I don't consider that to be "making" money.
ylle >> If I was working for myself I could imagine working harder and having more energy because even if I am working it is still my own time. I dont know if I would even consider it to be work if it was still my own time. <<
I don't understand this notion of some time being "my own time" and some of it not. Isn't all of my life time my own, or all of it not, depending on how you look at it? -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:22 AMI understand what you mean but I don't agree, but I have not started my own buisness yet so I will have to wait and see if it is the same being dependent on a boss and on customers and clients. I'm pretty sure it is not. The way it might be the same is that I am dependent in both cases, but there are definitly ways in which they are not the same.
Have you never had an experience similar to what I tried to describe with "not my own time"? Would you understand it if I was a slave trying to explane how it felt being owned? Because I mean the same thing only that I get payed for it and I am not a slave 24 hours a day and I have better conditions and are treated better.
You could tell a slave that you do not understand the notion of "my own time" because either all time is you own or non depending on how you look at it, but I dont think you would because I think you would choose to understand what the slave ment.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:34 AMIs it possible that both are right? There's a principle mentioned in Conversations with God called the Divine Dichotomy, in which two opposing points of view are both correct.
If I own my own business, it's true that I still work for someone. Yet it seems that I have more freedom., since I make the contract.
As an employee, my contract is with my employer, to show up everyday and do what I'm told. Sometimes that feels like slavery. I know, because I felt that way for many years. I was angry at my employer, and I couldn't really see that I was making a choice to be there. Or maybe I did see it as a choice, that of having a roof over my head or being homeless and destitute.
When I got laid off, I thought, I'm finally free. I stayed unemployed for years, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my new freedom. If you read my depressing poem in another post, you'll see the results of that experiment. As I discovered, I was a slave to myself. Sounds weird, eh?
Now, employed, unemployed, business or no business, it doesn't seem to matter. One thing is certain: I am confused. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 10:05 AM
and then there's the concept that both are wrong
and then there's the concept that each
just is
i like it there best
it's like the middle of the road
where there is
peace
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:20 AMKarin >> I was angry at my employer, and I couldn't really see that I was making a choice to be there. Or maybe I did see it as a choice, that of having a roof over my head or being homeless and destitute.
When I got laid off, I thought, I'm finally free. I stayed unemployed for years, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my new freedom. If you read my depressing poem in another post, you'll see the results of that experiment. As I discovered, I was a slave to myself. Sounds weird, eh? <<
Doesn't sound weird at all. It's more-or-less what I was trying to get at in my post to ylle. It is irritating to think that we don't have choices or that time is not our own, so why maintain those perspectives? -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:40 AM>It is irritating to think that we don't have choices or that time is not our own, so why maintain those perspectives?<
i could just as well say, why adjust what you think just to palliate your natural reaction? maybe it's providing a creative impulse to get you to do something more original with your life. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 12:34 PM
we are in control
we are the creators
we create time
which of course means that we can at any time
decide to give it up
and become a victim
instead of a participant
free will is like that
: )
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 12:47 PMi don't actually believe in free will either, but i agree it looks like we have it.
certainly, there's nothing that sez you can't have at it and see what happens. that's really the experiment, isn't it?
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 2:26 PMsulevay >> >> why adjust what you think just to palliate your natural reaction? <<
I don’t see it that way.
So, for example, I don’t like parsnips. Would you ask why I adjust my diet to exclude parsnips just to palliate my natural reaction to eating them? To my way of thinking, I am just going with my preferences. Why would I intentionally go against my preferences unless I thought I had something else to gain by doing that? And if that were the case, then I would just be going with another preference.
On the other hand, if there is no free will, then I am not adjusting anything, and the point is moot.
sulevay >> maybe it's providing a creative impulse to get you to do something more original with your life. <<
What is providing a creative impulse? What makes one impulse creative and another not? More original than what? How are we measuring originality? -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 3:16 AMIs not your example with parsnips and what Sulevay said the same thing? If I don't like to work for a boss because it feels like renting out my time (if I don't like parsnips, because of the taste), so I adjust my working conditions, start my own buisness (exclude parsnips from my diet).
It seems like you are both saying the same thing only that Saddha think one should exclude the feeling of time not being my own time instead of the excluding the situation that causes the feeling of time not being my own time. (exclude the experience of parsnips having a bad taste instead of simply excluding them from the diet)
Have I missunderstod something? -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 5:42 AMylle >> Is not your example with parsnips and what Sulevay said the same thing? If I don't like to work for a boss because it feels like renting out my time (if I don't like parsnips, because of the taste), so I adjust my working conditions, start my own buisness (exclude parsnips from my diet). <<
To me "renting out my own time" is not a feeling. It is a point of view that generates a feeling. I can get a different feeling there by changing the point of view, which gives me much more flexibility than trying to change an external circumstance to change a feeling. BTW, that you want adjust your working conditions presumably to change the feeling "renting out my time" suggests to me that you consider the feeling "renting out my time" burdensome.
I might be able to deconstruct the taste of parnips in my own mind, which might be interesting to try. I don't see any compelling reason to though, because parsnips really aren't a big part of my environment. I don't lose much by avoiding them. On the other hand, avoiding working as an employee because of some belief I might hold about being an employee warrants closer examination, because employment is a pretty prevelant feature of this society, and I would be limiting myself much more by avoiding that situation as compared with not eating parsnips. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 11:02 AM>On the other hand, avoiding working as an employee because of some belief I might hold about being an employee warrants closer examination, because employment is a pretty prevelant feature of this society, and I would be limiting myself much more by avoiding that situation as compared with not eating parsnips.<
just because it is a prevalent feature of society hardly constitutes a positive recommendation. i'd say it's people who make their own way regardless of social norms who lead more vital, creative lives. what we're all getting at seems to be that what matters is to follow your own compass.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 1:47 PMI think it is entirely reasonable to be very angry at the dilemma so many of us are caught in. I mean that really is the trap and I think it's important to honestly acknowledge it. It is a form of persecution but one that we are coerced into believing is somehow "right" or "good". For the vast majority of humans (throughout human history) "work" was just part of life, you need shelter you find it or build it. You need food, you find it, etc. The earth was the free and open source of all our needs, and we could meet our needs directly. There is something about a cash economy that grates against many people's hearts and minds. Why should I perform a job I have no innate interest in, or even if I'm interested in it -- perform it when I have other things on my mind just so I can get my needs met? It has become so ubiquitous we see it as a norm but it is not a norm at all, it is as foreign to human nature as eating rocks and requires quite a bit of coercion and propaganda to get people to conform to it.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 4:21 PMThanks for your forthrightness, Lori. I find it interesting the way I can skirt around issues, sort of walking on eggshells.
I see a culture of exploitation. Yet it is by some sort of mutual agreement that this happens. Even the ones who seem to benefit may discover that this is not worthwhile. At some point, we may be able to see what we are doing and choose to opt out.
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 10:35 AMi understand what you're saying, lori, but otoh, a cash economy is a convenience on all kinds of levels. i don't think it's cash itself that is grating; i think it's the "rat race" : the schedules, the *form* of jobs, which has much more to do with industrialization, seems to me, than cash. of course the whole class structure is based on wealth, but again, that's less to do with cash as a symbol than with power.
it's still possible to drop out and farm land to be more directly responsible for your upkeep, but then you're talking a PROFOUND amount of daily work even in the best of conditions. i love gardening, but i'm sure glad i don't have to entirely feed myself on it. tho i know people who manage it, here in CA at least.
around where i live, bartering is also really common; people just agree to trades if it works out. but when it doesn't, the symbol of cash is there to use.
we also have to be very clear that we could forego a whole lot of stuff that we're accustomed to or are convinced we need in order to be content. i love what steven writes about "enough" cuz (and i know you're an exception with this) most americans are surrounded by excess. heck, i feel like i live a hugely luxurious life, without over-working at all, but i'm as vulnerable as anyone if there's illness to pay for or the car breaks down. but i'm not waiting for retirement to enjoy the time i have, that's for sure. -
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 4:53 PMLOL, not sure I want to go into the intricacies of a cash vs. subsistence economic system here. My point was simply that it's perfectly understandable that the "soft animal of our body" is not so cool with being coerced into a lifestyle that really does not suit us biologically or psychologically.
I think there is often a moral <gag> message that goes along with our economic system suggesting that there is something immoral about wanting to move with your body, needs, impulses rather than against them. Dropping that moral injunction simplifies coping with the reality of brutality in which we currently exist.
We live in a very brutal almost *anti-life* system. If we were just machines who could turn ourselves to a work setting for 8 hours a day ( no needs, no emotions) the machine would be thrilled. But we are not machines; we are living beings with a complex set of emotions, thoughts, needs and sensations, very inconvenient for the overlords (LOL).
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Re: New to the group, greetings
Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:36 AM>Is it possible that both are right? There's a principle mentioned in Conversations with God called the Divine Dichotomy, in which two opposing points of view are both correct.<
i think that's also called paradox.
tho i like orson scott card's definition best: a paradox is that which squeezes the most truth into the least words.
being certain you're confused sounds pretty clear to me.
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