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This phrase has taken hold on my imagination. What would it mean to love uncertainty? To love the edge?
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 2:40 PMI've become aware of 2 sides to my personality, this affects every area of my life. Part of me loves uncertainty, the unknown, freedom, not being tied to anything, not having any commitments. The other half of me is the opposite to that, it loves security, routine, plans. My life is a like a fight between these 2 forces. Usually the uncertain side wins as it is timeless, and does not have past or future to worry about... -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:31 PMi'm with ben on living between the 2 poles.
'course, there are times when uncertainty is kindof exciting - a new romance, for instance, can be more tingly than fretful. the whole mystery of it, the wide range of possibilities before you know everything about a partner....
i guess if i could fall in love with uncertainty, it'd be quite a rush. but like all good romances, the daily grind eventually has to be part of it - and as far as uncertainty goes, i suppose that grind would be that reaction of wanting things nailed down. seems like there's never any one way to face reality.
i think, like all things, it comes down to the dance - two steps this way, a backstep, a bouncing pirouette..... -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 11:31 AMI think that's why I find the idea so intriguing. I've had the rush of the unknown, the times when not knowing what will happen seems like a thrill, pregnant with possibility, but so much more often uncertainty means rather unpleasant possibilities: where am I going to live? am I going to be able to pay my car insurance, am I going to need back surgery?
It's easy for uncertainty to take on an ugly cast. When I was younger it was easier for uncertainty to feel poignant but over the years it has become threatening and my resistance to it has increased. That becomes a problem in itself really. So the idea of having an entirely different relationship to uncertainty feels like it has some potential to loosen things up. -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 9:44 AMI didn't realize it but I kept working and working almost as if I wasn't really the driver of my decisions. But, I did a good job. I accomplished a lot. Became more and more of a specific 'identity'. "This is who I am..." and then others would see what great things I had accomplished and say.. "Hey, can you do this for me? Can you perhaps help me with this? And how about twice a week?? WOW.. you do such a good job." Then, I unconsciously keep going, after all, all of those good things I am learning about myself and then reward me with monetary compensation so that I have things around me that others ...are chosing... Hm.... how did they decide they wanted that? So, then I began to not only look around at what others were doing, but what others had, and THEN, WHY they chose it.... and I adopted it all. I have also, suffered all my life and most tremendously so the last few years. My getting to a place of uncertainty, and "freedom" to be descriptive.... was even motivated by what I saw othes having that I didn't when I was so busy being this other work identity... like oh, I don't have a significant other, oh, I don't take very good care of this body.... I began to see that in my search for my identity I had never been willing to just be, or live....and laugh, or truly smile. While working hard and being ....a clone, really.... addictions of all kinds riddled my life. My how hard I worked to keep the life inside down to a minimum. But...I did a good job, huh?
One day, I realized that it felt like my heart was being broken and I cried when I tried to make myself go to work. I...could not deny that I just couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't believe that I felt so strongly about it. I was USED to not listening to me. This time it was stronger. I quit a 17 year job. Half the battle was realizing that I could actually just let all the worry go...but it wasn't too hard. I realized what was hard was when I came down with physical illnesses because I was only willing to do whatever I needed to do to KEEP, KEEP my job! What if this?? What if that?? Oh No! Whew....!! I would be considered a "pity" by people all around me. All that wasted talent...!!
I said all that to say that when I thought I KNEW who I was, what I was here for, and what to do then all my attention went to KEEPING it ...and I got tired. It didn't kill me which is a miracle, but based on that as a frame of reference...whenever I start to feel bad (which tends to be most of the time unfortunately, or fortunately rather)....I notice that I am trying to hang on to something, ...I look at it, grieve it's loss (I am not successful with everything) as if it were gone, and relinquish the need to hang onto it. (My security blanket may be the last to go...or does it have to???? LOL) Well, I don't know what's going to happen to me and that makes me cry but I also don't want what I had to hang onto either. All I look around and see is what I did have, what I don't have now that I don't have that and what I think is beautiful (Which is an improvement) I have no idea where I am going to end up...but all along the way, I hope I can continue to want to relinquish all that I think I have "gained" so the next thing can come and maybe I might be able to laugh at everything that I want that would hold me down, play with it for a while and then let it go... I imagine wind blowing through my hair, standing at the ocean, and being scared but mesmerized by a sun setting, going to sleep, waking up to see the sun rising perhaps... or not and ask with arms/heart open what am I to do this day, if anything at all... -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 9:50 AMWow James, thanks for that, I relate to a lot of it!
I really liked this:
".whenever I start to feel bad (which tends to be most of the time unfortunately, or fortunately rather)....I notice that I am trying to hang on to something, ...I look at it, grieve it's loss (I am not successful with everything) as if it were gone, and relinquish the need to hang onto it." -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 4:32 PMHi Lori... do you do that too 'cause you feel bad? -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 11:09 PMUh.... I am not quite sure what I meant... (blush)
I can't wait unti I can get other Harrison stuff, I'll get Loving Uncertainty for certain... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 11:13 PM
Lori, I like what you wrote here... (smile)
"It's easy for uncertainty to take on an ugly cast. When I was younger it was easier for uncertainty to feel poignant but over the years it has become threatening and my resistance to it has increased. That becomes a problem in itself really. So the idea of having an entirely different relationship to uncertainty feels like it has some potential to loosen things up."
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 1:58 PMYeah, I'd like to read Loving Uncertainty, I'm curious what it has to say. I suppose what we are letting go of is clinging to security, mostly psychological security, although for me right now physical security is an issue as well. -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 2:31 PMMe too. It makes me sad/mad to read books sometimes, though. - it did today after a while of reading. You ....I mean people ....or who has or doesn't have psychological security? Shouldn't we have that? ( I think I know what you mean.) Why not? Then if we don't, we are all out here unsafe? Or crazy and no one cares? Physical securtity? Aren't you scared? Clinging to physical security? You mean like house, and stuff, a place to be... Shouldn't we be? What else is there to do? If I wait for myself to have the inner 'wisdom' to know when I release this 'clinging', what I should do, then I ... should just take action now. I suppose one would call that NOT living ... oh well.. my freakin' brain hurts..... Aren't you scared? -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 3:59 PMyikes!
Whoa, slow down. ;-) Psychological security is a game we play with ourselves, it's a way of trying to lasso the future into something predictable. If I'm a good girl...I will be okay. If I have a good job, marry the right person, buy the right house, drive the right car, have the right guru, read the right books everything will work out and I won't suffer, I'll live happily ever after. But for some of us that's too high a price to pay.
Some of that stuff is reasonable. If I have a good job, chances are I'll be able to pay my rent, buy food, etc. So yeah, we do what we need to do to take care of ourselves (well, some of us, lol) but there aren't any guarantees and if we don't really *fit* into the cultural matrix and try to carve our own path it's very risky.
Yeah, we should take care of ourselves (I'm learning this one a little late in life) but if that craving for security drives us we bring a lot of misery on ourselves and others. Being driven by fear always brings suffering. And the question becomes what are we afraid of? I mean what are we really afraid of? -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 8:37 PMPsychological security is a game we play with ourselves, it's a way of trying to lasso the future into something predictable.
With all due respect, I didn't want/intend to play in the first place. And I didn't know I was doing it, or how to stop.
If I'm a good girl...I will be okay. If I have a good job, marry the right person, buy the right house, drive the right car, have the right guru, read the right books everything will work out and I won't suffer, I'll live happily ever after. But for some of us that's too high a price to pay.
What did you mean that for some of us it's too high a price to pay? Good girl? Like who's saying that? ???
"Some of that stuff is reasonable. If I have a good job, chances are I'll be able to pay my rent, buy food, etc. So yeah, we do what we need to do to take care of ourselves (well, some of us, lol) but there aren't any guarantees and if we don't really *fit* into the cultural matrix and try to carve our own path it's very risky."
What do you mean risky? No gaurantees?
Yeah, we should take care of ourselves (I'm learning this one a little late in life) but if that craving for security drives us we bring a lot of misery on ourselves and others. Being driven by fear always brings suffering. And the question becomes what are we afraid of? I mean what are we really afraid of?
I don't know.... I do not know. It feels more like fear is what I am... oh no. I've read enough to know what that kind of statement means! I am doomed I suppose. -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 8:55 PMSorry, I forgot to put quotes around the last post.
So, the book Loving Uncertaintly isn't out yet then.... Thanks for sharing Lori. Answer any or none of the above, if you feel, but I am interested in some more of your thoughts personally from your perspective. If and when... thanks for posting back. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 6:45 AMSure, I can try and answer your questions. Though I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.
"What did you mean that for some of us it's too high a price to pay? Good girl? Like who's saying that? ??? "
The price we pay for psychological security can be too high. The idea of being a "good girl" is just one possibility, one could be a "good christian" or a "positive thinker", it's any ideal that we conform to because we think it will protect us from suffering.
"What do you mean risky? No gaurantees?"
For example, a good job won't give us absolute security, we could be laid off or become ill. A good job can give us the feeling of security but it isn't absolute security. But a good job is more likely to give us some financial security than say, trying to make it as an artist.
"I don't know.... I do not know. It feels more like fear is what I am... oh no. I've read enough to know what that kind of statement means! I am doomed I suppose."
What does that kind of statement mean? Why are you doomed? It makes sense that fear would feel like who you are--after all, if there is fear, then fear is what is. -
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Unsu...
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 3:48 PMLori,
Some of the things made me mad when I tried to read too much. I am really confused, now. I just didn't understand it, what you meant. I'll take a break and read again later. Thanks for taking time to answer, though.
James
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 2:53 PMJust thought I'd jump in here with an excerpt from this new book (the title is actually The Love of Uncertainty)--currently being printed--so that your curiosity can be at least somewhat satisfied. Unfortunately, the italics drop out when I paste the text in here, so you lose the emphasis, but this should give you an idea of the flavor of the book:
Virtual Reality
Life doesn’t have anything to do with what we want. It doesn’t have anything to do with our description, our conditioning, our direction. It’s not that it’s doing what it wants, because there’s no “it” that wants. Life just is. It’s tremendously dynamic and yet it does not move from location to location. It doesn’t move in time—doesn’t move in any way that we can think about or describe. If we attend to what is actual in our life, we’ll see that our life has absolutely nothing to do with our description, nothing to do with the way we think about what’s happening. We are not in control of our life or anything else, but we live as if we have that capacity. We struggle to have control, to define life, to direct it, to own it.
What is the expression of feeling in us? What is the restriction of it? Can we let it express itself? What’s actually moving, and will we let it move?
We constantly take energy into the mind, into a description, over and over again. The mind has patterning that we identify as control. It’s mechanical, habitual, chronic, so we say that’s predictable and I control it. But if you don’t move energy into your mind and disconnect yourself from your own body, your own life, your own presence, what happens?
You have to find out by doing it, by not resisting, by not taking all that energy constantly into the mental area. This means the philosopher may have to move around. It means their stoicism, their ability to control energy by sitting still and making precise descriptions of it, is actually an avoidance. Pretty much everything we do is an avoidance. Our whole life is a conversion of moving energy into something that appears to be in our control, appears to be stable. We try to push it into certain kinds of relationships, certain kinds of activities, things that we know about, things that are not risky. But there are all kinds of energetic movements that are not expressing. Where do they go? What happens to a body that doesn’t express itself, that doesn’t allow expression, that wants to move, but is restricted from moving, that wants to call out or cry out and doesn’t?
Pain, pain, and pain, in all forms. Pain in the outer forms—the breakdown of relationships, the breakdown of finances, the breakdown of health. And in the inner world, calcification or hardening of the space. This looks like control, like “I’ve got something here” in the inner space. “I found something, I know something, I am somebody.” That’s what it looks like, but it’s actually resistance to the movement, which is alive, creative, and has all the human potential in it.
This energetic movement destroys what’s false in relationships. In that destruction it deepens the actual relationship, because the actual relationship is a fact, not an idea. It destroys the falseness of activity that is not whole.
It is both the destruction of what’s false and the creation of something whole, because that’s what it is—it is alive, it is whole. Resistance to that movement is pain, pain, and pain. There’s absolutely no movement to the resistance. It’s the illusion of time and process, the spirituality of getting better.
We tend to try to modify our conflict, to relieve the absolute pressure, the absolute pain of relationship conflict, but this attempt to fix it actually makes it more difficult. If you and I work out our communication with each other so that we feel better about each other, this is actually a worse condition than being in total conflict, because in total conflict we’re right in contact with something extremely vital. But in our self-improvement, we’re replacing that uncomfortable contact with an ideal that suggests we’re getting better, when all we’re doing is thinking we’re getting better.
I’d rather be in contact with the actual resistance, the pain of it, and the possibility of that pain releasing because it’s too much. I would prefer to be flattened by my own resistance. To actually feel what that is. But that’s the movement of feeling again, isn’t it? And that moving energy will rip apart anything that is not true, that is not the expression of that movement.
The mentalized world that resists energy doesn’t have substantial existence. It’s a virtual world where we hide, and the hiding, the virtual world, and the “we” that hide there are all without substance. It’s like a computer game where all the senses are somehow engaged, as if we’re walking down the street, as if a monster jumps out, as if we have the ray gun. This has all the qualities of actuality, but in fact it’s just a trick of the senses. The aggregation of those senses would suggest that I live in separation, that I know something, that I am something.
You can’t find that world in feeling—it doesn’t exist in that form at all. You find something that is like that—thinking takes place in feeling, feeling expresses itself through thinking, but there’s no separate world in that feeling. There’s a separate world seamlessly connected to a whole world. What you find in actual life is relationship, movement of energy, which means that all that separation you build from the aggregation of the senses isn’t.
Do I want to see that I am not? Does the aggregation want to see that it is not? Certainly not. In that friction we find the quality of sublime confusion. It’s the disorganization of what we think we are and, at the same time, a sublime quality of connection with feeling. It’s destruction and creation at the same time.
Feeling is not in the virtual world because it’s not describable. It can’t be taken into the conceptual world. When we try to do that, we get philosophy and spirituality. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 6:21 PMhey connie ~ when i want to convey italics, i just put asterisk's *before and after* the section, fwiw. it sorta works.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 6:57 PM"useful constructions" is an interesting term.....as it can only be useful to the thinking mind, right?
as far as the new piece that connie posted....
it strikes me that no matter how accurately anything is described or posited with words, it's still conceptual, still linear, still adding to the story. IOW, who's to say that our supposed "resistance" (to whatever!) isn't just another story? - perhaps it's all a perfectly natural call/response that we are bound to generate just by nature of being in the flow of contraction/expansion. of BEING contraction/expansion itself!
how, then, can we expect to see it, solve it, transcend it or lose it!?!! the whole It/we dichotomy is a ruse, another fanciful excuse to play, generate, dance......
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 6:50 AMConnie. Thank you for the excerpt. Generally, I like Steven’s writings, but there seem to be some contradictions in this piece.
SH >> We are not in control of our life <<
Appears to be in contradiction with:
SH >> Can we let it express itself? <<
SH >> will we let it move? <<
SH >> But if you don’t move energy into your mind and disconnect yourself from your own body, your own life, your own presence, what happens? <<
SH >> You have to find out by doing it, by not resisting, by not taking all that energy constantly into the mental area. <<
This excerpt has several additional statements implying control than what I have listed. If there is no control, then there is no “letting”, no “doing”, no “resisting”, no “taking it in”, etc. There’s nothing to do what-so-ever, if there is no control.
SH >> If you and I work out our communication with each other so that we feel better about each other, this is actually a worse condition than being in total conflict, because in total conflict we’re right in contact with something extremely vital. <<
While I think this is true on some level, in practice, I think some people use this notion as an excuse to be just plain belligerent. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 9:38 AMYou're welcome.
I think the language can appear contradictory, but the sense of it is that while you have no control over the movement of life energy itself, you can relax and let it have its way with you ("let it express itself") or you can fight it, in which case it will have its way with you in a different fashion! -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:06 AMAh. I see.
That makes more sense.
Thank you for the response Connie.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:07 AMI agree with you Connie - in that there is no control over the energy. But what I proposing is that whether it has its way or not with you, whether you fight it or not - this is something that's out of your control because there is no entity there to control.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:08 AMit must be difficult to put these concepts into words, like carrying water with a fork.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:20 AMthanks for articulating that, saddha - i caught the same discrepancy, and while i appreciate connie's clarification very much as well, it all leaves me with a feeling of another loop in the dance, as i said.
this endless loop hits me in a nearly visceral way, that no matter what landscape you describe, or what vista you point to, you're still expressing IT, expressing itself.
so i end up after all the clarifications and questions just sortof feeling, so what? it seems that if there's a perceived preference for conflict, then we'll tend to generate that, and if there's a perceived preference for harmony, we'll generate that. i'm still not sure either position can be described as any more free.....because what's to be free of if it's all and only life? what else is there?
if we're just talking quality, then you act according to your preferences, whether those be genetic predispositions or thought-out philosophies. and those preferences themselves can shift, moment by moment, according to whatever energy dynamics are in play.
same as it ever was, as far as i can tell.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 8:14 AMJames >> whenever I start to feel bad (which tends to be most of the time unfortunately, or fortunately rather)....I notice that I am trying to hang on to something, ...I look at it, grieve it's loss (I am not successful with everything) as if it were gone, and relinquish the need to hang onto it. <<
Hmm. If only someone had figured this out 2600 years ago... -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 23, 2008 - 4:50 AMJames >> trying to hang on to something <<...
The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism: suffering, its cause, its end, and the path to its end.
Hanging on is the cause. Letting go is the end. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 23, 2008 - 9:32 AMand then there is letting go of letting go..... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 23, 2008 - 12:06 PMYes. Holding on to letting go brings suffering as well.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 1:09 AMMaybe it has to do with the letting going on - as the process of letting assumes there is some thing or someone capable of letting or not letting or something like that ;-) -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 12:44 PMNot exactly sure what you are getting at Charles. If you mean that the idea of letting go is a mental construction, then I agree, but I find some constructions and that one in particular, useful. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 8:44 PMBy entertaining the idea that some entity is actually capable of letting or not letting go, that there's some part of us that's in control to this degree, or any degree for that matter - well, that's an idea that I don't subscribe to. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 6:51 AMThis kind of thinking seems to me to be an attempt to absolve oneself of responsibility for one’s actions. Not saying you are like that Charles. On the contrary, I have found you to be quite considerate in these forums, unlike some others folks, but that’s how the statement comes across to me. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:15 AMI think you made a pretty fair assessment. One's actions are out of one's control as much as what you might categorize as being responsible for them, and whether one is considerate or not is but a mechanical process, which will be dealt with mechanically. And I'd propose that whether you agree with these statements or not - your response will be mechanical. There's no other way you could have reacted because, in essence, there's no one calling the shots. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 11:59 AMCharles >> your response will be mechanical. There's no other way you could have reacted because, in essence, there's no one calling the shots. <<
On what do you base this belief? -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:09 PMThe frame of any moment is merely experiencing the fragment of a continuum, flowing seamlessly from one thin-slice to the next. Our take on reality, comprised of those occasional moments when awareness does rear its head evokes a type of snapshot in memory, and when strung together they can give the impression that one is actually doing something; it is easy to mistake the flow of time as personally being an accomplishment. The echoes of Intention and responsibility for one's actions on the surface sound pretty good, yet when you begin to break down the process, it is most mechanical - like the river flowing to the sea. We maintain concepts that correlate with what we gather reflect our thoughts, emotions and actions - but these are machinations dictated by the flow of a continuum we simply have no control over. Holding onto the thought that one can control or not control is the impetus for what is described as suffering - yet whether one suffers or not is also beyond our ability to influence.
Where does anyone get a belief from? Our world-line, what we think of as ourselves manifesting at a particular moment in time at some defined location in the cosmos - *this determines everything* - and there's absolutely nothing we can do to change it. But, if you look around, that is exactly what most are trying to do. Doing nothing seems to be the exception more than the rule, yet - doing something is every bit as mechanical as doing nothing.
Whether we love or hate uncertainty has already been defined for each of us. We've already been served our plate. Seconds? -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 10:27 AMVery nice Charles, 'thank you...'
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:28 AMI think you made a pretty fair assessment. One's actions are out of one's control as much as what you might categorize as being responsible for them, and whether one is considerate or not is but a mechanical process, which will be dealt with mechanically. And I'd propose that whether you agree with these statements or not - your response will be mechanical. There's no other way you could have reacted because, in essence, there's no one calling the shots. -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:29 AMcharles is out of control! ;-) -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Fri, July 25, 2008 - 10:40 AMok, that was one of those tribe hiccups that you can't control.
nicely illustrating the uncertainty of trying to communicate online.
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 10:18 AMlet go of the 'one letting go' and there is no more to let go. ;^) -
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 10:19 AMAbove in reply to:
sulevay
Wed, July 23, 2008 - 9:32 AM
and then there is letting go of letting go.....
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Re: Loving Uncertainty
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 10:33 AM"Part of me loves uncertainty, the unknown, freedom, not being tied to anything, not having any commitments."
Actually Ben, wouldn't true uncertainty include the possibility of schedules and commitments? Yet being 'free' within them? The essential uncertainty/unknown being 'who/what' one is?
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