if tribe disappears....

topic posted Wed, November 14, 2007 - 4:46 PM by  sulevay
just an fyi, since tribe's been having all sorts of odd problems and the rumors are flying....

i'm checking out a couple other networking sites with decent interfaces and will have one standing by in case this one disappears. i like the potential over at "ning.com" so far but if anyone has other suggestions, let me know.

it's been pretty quiet here of late, and i'm just wondering what you all see as the potential for this sort of virtual engagement, if anything. what's next after tribe?
posted by:
sulevay
California
  • Re: if tribe disappears....

    Wed, November 14, 2007 - 7:35 PM
    I frequent a forum over at Ning, and though it's workable, it doesn't seem to have nearly as nice an interface as tribe. From what I've seen and what we're doing here (whatever that is) I'd say we're driving around in the Mercedes. I don't think the problems are that big of a deal here, and my guess is they're upgrading the system - which will in the long run provide more reliability. Also, there are big bucks riding on this interface and I don't just see it just disappearing... bought maybe, but not going away.

    If you want to energize this tribe, I'd say open it up to the general public and maybe have it a little more closely moderated so things don't get our of hand. Also, don't see this suggestion as a criticism on the current excellent moderation ;-) Let the core build in size. There just aren't enough people for critical mass. After you exceed this critical point, if necessary, you could always go back to a 'by invitation' status.

    Also, some relatively low cost marketing could definitely give 'donothing' a shot in the arm.

    Not to mention that a surprise visit from Steven once in a while could get people's juices flowing. Tell him to get over it ;-)
    • Re: if tribe disappears....

      Wed, November 14, 2007 - 8:47 PM

      well, this is a tricky thing, since strictly speaking, this is supposed to be a forum for steven harrison's work yet it's rarely directly touched on, and opening things up to the masses would likely dilute things further....which on the one hand is no big deal, since we're talking about Life, afterall, and OTOH, there are a kajillion open forums on tribe and i personally find the bigger ones mind-numbingly trivial and boring for the most part, pardon my condescension.

      marketing? hahahaha.....

      it's interesting, actually, cuz traveling around with him, people would sometmes get pissed when they plunked down their 10 euros and didn't get a pretty lecture on the meaning of life. .....it's ironic trying to point to the energetic wholeness of a room when you're the focal point by default.

      but i agree, you have to take some risk to engage the creative flow. i'm not sure what's possible in terms of genuine creativity on a social network, but wtf, i'd just as soon play with it and see what happens.

      one thing i definitely noticed during my travels was how invigorating the unknown is. maybe we can start with some questions posed during a conversation between steven and martin frischknecht (a lovely guy whose company i greatly enjoyed) that point this up:

      * Can we step out of the security of what we already know to discover something more vital and alive?
      * How do we move beyond self-created boundaries?
      * Can we really address the problems in our lives by separating from our lives in retreats and workshops?
      * Why are we all hiding from each other? What would happen if we actually showed up as we were? Can we reveal our true intentions and our real selves to others?
      * Why the idea that "I create the world" so popular?
      * Is our insight also a burden?
      * How can we open to what is next?

      ok, that's a lot, but i'm just lobbing them out there to see if any of them particularly strike anyone. meanwhile, i invite anyone to offer these to their most engaged friends and see what they get. i'm sure mr LK will open the door to anyone whose keen to get involved.
      • Re: if tribe disappears....

        Wed, November 14, 2007 - 10:31 PM
        * Can we step out of the security of what we already know to discover something more vital and alive?

        No, you got what you paid for - nothing more, nothing less.

        * How do we move beyond self-created boundaries?

        We don't.

        * Can we really address the problems in our lives by separating from our lives in retreats and workshops?

        No. We don't separate from our lives. Our lives change.

        * Why are we all hiding from each other? What would happen if we actually showed up as we were? Can we reveal our true intentions and our real selves to others?

        We are who we are. How could we be any different? Why would be even want to be different? What we reveal are our true intentions. What we don't reveal are intentions never realized.

        * Why the idea that "I create the world" so popular?

        It might be popular in people or groups with certain mindsets, but it never even comes to the surface for most. It's an opportunity to blame one's self for what we don't like and pat ourselves on the back for what we do... just a news commentator that won't shut up.


        * Is our insight also a burden?

        No, it's just what it is whenever it shows itself. Then it goes away.

        * How can we open to what is next?

        By opening to the moment - whatever that is. We always face it with whatever tools we have at hand.
        • Re: if tribe disappears....

          Thu, November 15, 2007 - 9:17 AM
          my own answers (and disclaimer: i have not listened to the conversation between martin and steven.)

          • Can we step out of the security of what we already know to discover something more vital and alive?

          the question itself points to something i don't know. what's that about? there is great energy in this inquiry.

          • How do we move beyond self-created boundaries?

          given that the boundaries aren't real, there's really not a problem here. sometimes we move in patterns, sometimes we don't. when we notice this, the boundaries have slightly less solidity, perhaps.

          • Can we really address the problems in our lives by separating from our lives in retreats and workshops?

          an inflammatory question. (maybe they all are, by design!)
          seems obvious that whatever is accomplished in "special" circumstances has questionable merit in "normal" circumstances. apples and oranges.....yet change occurs. this seems dependent on forces way beyond the slice the brain is capable of seeing (ok, my brain, anyway.) meanwhile, looking for cures is absurd, while looking for sedatives is the default.

          • Why are we all hiding from each other? What would happen if we actually showed up as we were? Can we reveal our true intentions and our real selves to others?

          we're afraid.....individually and en masse. what we're afraid of is an interesting source of energy in itself. so, we show up to the extent we're able. the only way to reveal our "true" selves is to give up everything we know we are. (we're apparently fluid; the known is not.)

          • Why the idea that "I create the world" so popular?

          because it gives the illusion of control.

          • Is our insight also a burden?

          hmmm...this one surprises me. i think of insight as a kind of navigation.....but there are elements of colonizing here too. insight almost always expresses itself in linear, preconceived terms. yet it points to energy we obviously make contact with.....

          • How can we open to what is next?

          it's not just about opening to the now, from what i see, cuz that's more passive that what happens. my best metaphor at the moment is "call and response". we emit signals, we get signals back, the energy moves. and yet....the energy can go into maintaining grooves and structures, or it can mushroom beyond those into something unexpected. how much of maintenance is voluntary is open to question.....and there's a certain kind of art to finding out, which cannot be expressed verbally, but IS expressed in group dynamics. sometimes.
          • Re: if tribe disappears....

            Thu, November 15, 2007 - 12:44 PM
            Sulevay >> given that the boundaries aren't real, there's really not a problem here. sometimes we move in patterns, sometimes we don't. when we notice this, the boundaries have slightly less solidity, perhaps. <<

            What does it mean for something to be "real"? How are patterns different from boundaries? Is there a boundary between the ideas of moving in patterns and not moving in patterns?
            • Re: if tribe disappears....

              Thu, November 15, 2007 - 7:22 PM
              >"real"<

              pk dick said, reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

              but then, he was nuts.....

              patterns, boundaries, similar idea. patterns consist of strategically arrayed boundaries, perhaps.

              >Is there a boundary between the ideas of moving in patterns and not moving in patterns?<

              no. :-P
      • Re: if tribe disappears....

        Wed, November 14, 2007 - 10:48 PM
        Via, after reading you last two posts, I sense a feeling of discontent. What's the matter with the person that's reading this post right now? And, please, don't interpret this is being personal.

        I get the sense you want this Steven Harrison thing to be better for you, that you need more stimulus, that you want the group to get bigger and more diverse, that you want it to be your personalized warp engine.

        I mean if tribe vaporized, you'd instantaneously be focused on something else, we all would. If Steven croaked you'd find others to interact with.

        I mean, like there's nowhere to go other than where it is we're going; it seems to me that that's what doingnothing is all about. Of course, I could have it all assbackwards ;-)
        • Re: if tribe disappears....

          Thu, November 15, 2007 - 8:46 AM
          hey charles, thanks for putting yourself into this. i'll answer the 2nd one first.

          >I sense a feeling of discontent. What's the matter with the person that's reading this post right now? And, please, don't interpret this is being personal.<

          ok....let's back up from defining what you're picking up as "discontent." that's not an inaccurate word, but from a non-personal perspective, it's just that inner push to stir the pot and see what's up. if i poke here, what happens? this energy seeks expression.

          >I get the sense you want this Steven Harrison thing to be better for you, that you need more stimulus, that you want the group to get bigger and more diverse, that you want it to be your personalized warp engine. <

          probably something to this, at least in terms of stimulus. that may be a response to coming home to the country after a very rich, invigorating trip, and wanting to keep in contact with the energy. obviously, that energy is here or there, and anywhere, but being with people who are committed to exploring it, AS energy.... is pretty provocative. so, as we're here, what's underneath this tribe story?

          i'm not all that concerned with tribe vaporizing, myself. there was a time when it was my interface with the larger world; that particular idea has gotten over itself. :-)

          so yeah, doing nothing is about not arguing with what is, that part's fine. but doing nothing is not where it ends, either, as i grok you grok.

          so here, now, i'm not being quiet and still.
      • Re: if tribe disappears....

        Fri, November 16, 2007 - 10:45 AM
        * Can we step out of the security of what we already know to discover something more vital and alive?

        yes ;-0

        Actually, I think life itself is constantly presenting us with that newness, usually I just have to stop fighting it and look.
        *************
        * How do we move beyond self-created boundaries?

        By paying attention to them.
        *************
        * Can we really address the problems in our lives by separating from our lives in retreats and workshops?

        Well, if we don't separate from our lives while at a retreat or workshop. Maybe, by paying attention to how retreats and workshops "feel" or "seem" separate (since, of course, they aren't really)?
        **************************
        * Why are we all hiding from each other?

        Because we don't want to get hurt.
        ******
        What would happen if we actually showed up as we were?

        We would risk getting hurt.
        *****
        Can we reveal our true intentions and our real selves to others?

        Not without risk.
        *****
        * Why the idea that "I create the world" so popular?

        Because people feel so incredibly out of control of their lives and a sense of control is fundamental to mental health.
        *****
        * Is our insight also a burden?

        I think it is always uncomfortable to step out of the stream of common thought. It creates an entirely new set of challenges.
        *****
        * How can we open to what is next?

        By paying attention to all the ways in which we are not open, and how that feels and smells and tastes, all our soft, squishy human parts.
        • Re: if tribe disappears....

          Sat, November 17, 2007 - 11:06 AM
          hey, lori! here afterall!

          i appreciate your response. this one struck me:

          >* Why is the idea that "I create the world" so popular?

          >Because people feel so incredibly out of control of their lives and a sense of control is fundamental to mental health. <

          is it really? i mean, sure seems to be....but i think the control thing is needed primarily in terms of physical survival: having food available, etc, while a LOT of seemingly necessary control is for the survival of the psychological self.

          but, so long as we're identified with what we think of as "our mental health"....there's the story again, dictating all kinds of "necessities".

          it's a helluva a thing to consider, that mental health will disappear if we loosen control. yet WE aren't stable, we flow....so it seems contradictory. how much creative juice gets squandered feeding that one?

          thanks for bringing this up.
          • Re: if tribe disappears....

            Sat, November 17, 2007 - 4:56 PM
            Ah yeah, that assertion is straight out of freshman psychology. So, it's probably based more on observation of people in general than an absolute fundamental need. As I recall, people manage stress better when they perceive they have the ability to control the outcome of a situation but lapse into learned helplessness when they perceive they have no ability to control the outcome I don't know if that is hardwired into us or if it is in fact the outcome of the creation of the illusion of the self.

            Somehow, I doubt the researchers involved considered that angle. ;-) Interesting question though...are there cases where the illusion of security or control actually *does* help to create a more positive outcome?
            • Re: if tribe disappears....

              Sat, November 17, 2007 - 5:41 PM
              >Somehow, I doubt the researchers involved considered that angle. ;-)

              me too!

              >Interesting question though...are there cases where the illusion of security or control actually *does* help to create a more positive outcome?<

              well, sure. "positive outcome" is generally accepted to be what makes us happy, healthy and productive. being happy is a reasonable measure....but hell, consumerism makes lots of people happy too, and the outcome of that isn't so positive.

              what's missing seems to be the possibility of moving in synergy with the whole, so that the whole is creatively benefited. (see article on gaia theory.) maybe that has an element of control, or maybe it's more about surrender to larger (impersonal?) forces.
  • Re: if tribe disappears....

    Fri, November 16, 2007 - 6:05 AM
    it doesn't matter, why pretend it does?
    • Re: if tribe disappears....

      Fri, November 16, 2007 - 7:37 AM
      >it doesn't matter, why pretend it does?<

      what "it" are you referring to?

      and who's pretending?


      • Re: if tribe disappears....

        Fri, November 16, 2007 - 7:43 AM
        on the subject of stories, i agree the brain is what creates them....but it seems to me that underlying that expression, there is energy striking the brain and triggering that whole process.

        of course, words immediately create stories about the energy, but the energy itself is outside them, at least before we begin talking about it.

        ....


        maybe this is why steven abandoned the forum, b/c it's a futile exercise. interaction here is inevitably mental....tho paradoxically, i notice that action can and has come out of it that transcends the form.

        that would be one possible 'what is next', it seems.
        • Re: if tribe disappears....

          Fri, November 16, 2007 - 10:12 AM
          Sulevay >> interaction here is inevitably mental....tho paradoxically, i notice that action can and has come out of it that transcends the form.

          Guilty as charged. Makes me kind of sad really, but all I have here are words. :(
      • Re: if tribe disappears....

        Fri, November 16, 2007 - 2:01 PM
        any 'it', actually. and if post history be indicator, you are.
        • Re: if tribe disappears....

          Sat, November 17, 2007 - 11:11 AM
          >any 'it', actually. and if post history be indicator, you are.<

          so, nothing matters. if that's good enough for you, no problem.

          what does it mean to you, that i'm pretending? seems an odd assertion, if energy is just on the move.....

          does something matter to you afterall?

          • Re: if tribe disappears....

            Wed, November 21, 2007 - 11:29 AM
            that you feel the need to assume any statement holds some underlying intent or motivation and is not, in fact, merely a statement is an interesting thing, but it is your interesting thing.

            i'm content to nod at it and nothing more. :)
            • Re: if tribe disappears....

              Wed, November 21, 2007 - 9:16 PM
              >that you feel the need to assume any statement holds some underlying intent or motivation and is not, in fact, merely a statement is an interesting thing, but it is your interesting thing.

              >i'm content to nod at it and nothing more. :) <


              LOL! yet you didn't just nod at it, did you?






              • Re: if tribe disappears....

                Sat, November 24, 2007 - 8:36 AM
                actually, i did just that. as i am now. why do you feel the need to assume there is more? maybe you should turn those projections back home where they belong.
                • Re: if tribe disappears....

                  Sat, November 24, 2007 - 8:54 AM
                  fenix....you played this same game on extreme honesty. it didn't work there either.

                  if history is any indication, however, you're immune to seeing the pot calling the kettle black. i don't know at what point you decided to pick up this same dynamic with me, but i don't really see the point.

                  do you want to communicate something?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: if tribe disappears....

                    Sun, November 25, 2007 - 7:04 AM
                    oh, that's right, silly me... it's a "game" when others do it. when you do it, it's all about being a perfect manifestation of nothingness. or something.

                    funny, as i recall, you understood and agreed when it went down in extreme honesty. perhaps you only have an issue with it when it hits a little closer to home?

                    if you smell hypocrisy, go have a look in the mirror... you see, i haven't been trailing your posts with snarky little comments, you've been trailing mine. i asked you why it mattered. you still haven't managed to answer that, instead, you've gone off into this weird little bizzaro world where pretending as if you never said it mattered isn't belied by your initiating post.

                    who knows what part of you needs to believe as you do, assume as you do, or act as you do... and frankly, who cares?

                    if you don't see a point to it, perhaps you can stop yourself from doing it. for a change. yeah, that'd be nice.

                    feel free to start. any ol' time now. or g'head on with posting bout how it really doesn't matter, but you just... can't... stop.... this.... (or course no one is supposed to NOTICE, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.).

                    ::yawn::
                    • Re: if tribe disappears....

                      Sun, November 25, 2007 - 10:33 AM
                      >oh, that's right, silly me... it's a "game" when others do it. when you do it, it's all about being a perfect manifestation of nothingness. or something.<

                      ok, so, you have this idea of me. i'm sure it's valid for you and the way you observe me. but fenix, just as several people in EH tried sincerely to point this out to you, that you cry "projection" on everyone while never copping to your own, while claiming every one of them is a purely accurate insight (as if YOU are a "perfect manifestation of nothingness"!) - i mean, come on already. i notice i do the same thing (but it's greatly clarified thru your reflection, so thank you.) it's hardly a damning accusation when it's simply what we do.

                      from what i see, this is why we clash: we're both assuming the worst of each other when communication breaks down. not so hard to understand.....

                      and now, what i'm projecting or perceiving (or both), is that you're in pain and lashing out. and i wonder how willing you might be to explore that with me, who shares that affliction.....?

                      ----

                      >funny, as i recall, you understood and agreed when it went down in extreme honesty. perhaps you only have an issue with it when it hits a little closer to home?<

                      i understood what you were pointing to, yes, and i spoke to that. the difference was, i also saw what certain others were pointing to as well, when they tried to grab your hand before you went roaring off the edge making wild accusations (like tribe behavior is what "caused" columbine.)

                      to be exact, i replied to BEB:

                      >I don't want you to leave Fenix. It isn't *all* you. Nor it it *all* everyone else. <

                      what BEB said, exactly.

                      and then i said:

                      also: feedback always travels in 2 directions. without exception.

                      ----

                      and here we are again.

                      the trail of snarky posts is in the eye of the beholder, it seems. you offered an assertion that i was making assertions, while i was asking for further clarification. my "LOL" comment was snarky, for sure, i'll own that one. the question you asked was not the neutral "why does it matter?" but the snark-infested "why pretend it does?"

                      to clarify: i don't think tribe itself matters, but i'm not entirely done with this online communication experiment, and specifically i'm not done attempting a discourse about what steven is articulating and how that thread travels on a virtual track.


                      does this help?

                      • Re: if tribe disappears....

                        Mon, November 26, 2007 - 5:30 AM
                        "why pretend it matters" was not and still is not 'snark infested', but you choose to take it that way. you'll note the conclusion of ill intent only occurs after that point.... and frankly, it was grounded.

                        and it is still a fact that the kind of behaviours exhibited by the people in the Extreme Honesty tribe are, quite literally, the kind of behaviours that cause things like Columbine; ignorant and ego-driven behaviors that care more for perceived status and group approval than anything else.

                        i'm not a perfect anything. but i shouldn't have to say it publicly to keep you or anyone else happy. your happiness is not my responsibility for one, and your belief that something must be said in order for you to be able to "know" it is held within another is, frankly, disgusting. do you even grasp what it says?

                        i find it curious and fascinating that you leap to the conclusion that the only reason anyone would ever disagree with or be annoyed with you is if they are "in pain" and "lashing out". if indeed, i am in pain, it certainly is not a thing i would care to share with you, let alone publicly, when it appears you only seek information from others so you know where to set the next barb. what kind of fool would tell you anything?

                        maybe you should leave steve's thoughts to steve to explain, if he cares to do so. or should we instead explore the arrogance of thinking because you happen to have some degree of proximity to someone, you're somehow able to speak their thoughts better than they do or tell others how or when they are understanding him or not?

                        aside -- kindly spare me the response if all it's going to be is more of this yammering about "my anger", "my issues", blah, blah, blah.... you do not know the first thing about me, and if you were ever interested in knowing any of it, you certainly would not have chosen this 'nit pick everything she posts' posture. and it remains -- nothing said here matters and i'm still curious why anyone would pretend otherwise.

Recent topics in "doingnothing"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Loving Uncertainty lori 40 Yesterday, 10:09 PM
No-self saddha 13 July 24, 2008
Liberation: purging of self offlineSKeye 0 July 21, 2008
mystery sulevay 13 July 21, 2008