origin of the tarot

topic posted Mon, March 24, 2008 - 9:27 AM by  KLM
people.tribe.net/d17b1165-...6899ca562c
this is the unified field - a balanced unit/universe - literally "before the fall"
it is the 10 sephira, the 22 letters, and the 32 paths
this is what the tarot teaches
posted by:
KLM
offline KLM
Florida
  • Re: origin of the tarot

    Mon, March 24, 2008 - 11:45 AM
    Qabala teaches that - Tarot does not.

    Contrary what some qabalists would like to believe, while Tarot and qabala hang out very nicely together, they are two separate entities with two very different histories and developmental paths.
    • Re: origin of the tarot

      Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:21 PM
      the tarot is the kabalah.
      it is built upon the pattern shown above,
      -which is the tree of life.

      contrary to what many "readers" believe, the tarot was not invented in rennaiscance italy:
      nor was it intended as a divinatory crutch or iconographic psychic stimulator;
      in fact, it teaches astrology, number theory, and subspace geometry.
      • Re: origin of the tarot

        Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:28 AM
        good post, well put.

        I agree whole heartedly with all but the first sentance.
        The tarot is not THE kabalah, but based on the kabalah or used in conjunction with it. The same way the tree of life is not THE tarot, but the tarot cards do relate in quite obvious ways to the sephiroth and paths. But they're used for different things.
        • Re: origin of the tarot

          Tue, March 25, 2008 - 11:04 AM
          Wow. Who'd have thought there was such thing as Kabbalistic Fundamentalism.

          "contrary to what many "readers" believe, the tarot was not invented in rennaiscance italy:"

          Of course not...the Gypsies secretly brought it from Egypt (*snicker*).

          All the historians are wrong! The Vatican suppressed all the records! Where's my foil hat?
          • Re: origin of the tarot

            Tue, March 25, 2008 - 11:10 AM
            The problem with any esoteric discipline, be it neuroscience, the occult, or computer programming, is that it is easy to mistake the map for the terrain, or to conflate the tool with its purpose.

            Kabbalah and Tarot are two separate and distinct maps or tools that can - if one is so inclined to put them together - work well together.

            Both developed under different circumstances and in different times and cultures. However both, like all esotericism - and all creative endeavour. for that matter - derive their power from their effectiveness in sinking taproots down into the deep wells of human consciousness and potential. That is why they work.

            The rest is a dispute over trifles.
  • Re: origin of the tarot

    Mon, March 24, 2008 - 11:28 PM
    I've been teaching Tarot Reading classes for years and looked for the answer to this question because I knew it would come up in class. The truth is that symbolism is based on natural universal patterns and all divination follows those patterns.

    Tarot cards per se were designed in Italy and were called the Tarocchi deck...and were based on a world where kings queens and pages existed. But, even that may not be the earliest form of cards.

    I've heard that they might have been devised to teach bible lessons, and that many of the cards are based on the old testament. But again, universal truths are universal truths. So it's hard to nail all this down.

    And you know after doing so many Readings I would say that the cards are doorways to life. And remember they're just representations....not life itself.


    • Re: origin of the tarot

      Tue, March 25, 2008 - 12:07 AM
      This is so well said...

      "contrary to what many "readers" believe, the tarot was not invented in renaissance Italy:
      nor was it intended as a divinatory crutch or iconographic psychic stimulator;
      in fact, it teaches astrology, number theory, and subspace geometry."


      Tarot is the Tree of Life/qua or kabbalah in motion. One is the paradox of the other.

      Italy had nothing to do with the invention or introduction of tarot but may produced/manufactured the first commercial tarot set. At the time (and previous to then) people had artists craft a deck for specifically for them since they were actually hand drawn and simultaneous multiple productions were impossible...It may have been rare, but not considered uncommon. Again, the rich could and did afford to have a tarot set crafted for them. different artists had different impressions, ideas, philosophies and perspective and drew the same essence differently and would have followed a preset pattern, much like what you see today with all these new sets.

      The Celts can trace back an oral tradition to before Christ which involves stories, music, dances, plays and "Note"...pictures. Also in the historical images (pictures) are the symbolism found in tarot, like that of the hanged man, and includes the story behind the image and it's origins.

      The myths around Merlin also involve tarot images, scenes and stories and is considered a source for unadulterated and original imagery and symbolism. Merlin and the story of the hang man relate to around 640 AD even though the images have been proven to exist prior to Christ. This can not be said about the Italian deck or somebodies idea of the "first production".
      • Re: origin of the tarot

        Tue, March 25, 2008 - 7:57 AM
        Random and/or universal symbols do not the tarot make.

        Sources? Proofs?
        • Re: origin of the tarot

          Tue, March 25, 2008 - 7:26 PM
          Random, nothing random about tarot or life itself.

          www.dreampower.com

          www.rjstewart.net

          If there ever was a real McCoy...this guy would be it. Check his stuff out thoroughly, you'll be really quite surprised.

          He also has an extensive list of resources/writers that he has researched and referenced in his writings.
          • Re: origin of the tarot

            Tue, March 25, 2008 - 10:51 PM
            We love R.J.

            To clarify the statement that used the term "random":
            Just because the symbols and archetypes were around before the Renaissance doesn't mean that the tarot was, unless one wants to define tarot as something more than the deck of cards, in which case we have an entirely different discussion on our hands.

            "The tarot is the clothesline upon which the West hangs its metaphysical laundry."
            Thalassa
            • Re: origin of the tarot

              Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:39 AM
              Yes, I thought we were actually talking about Tarot Cards too....with kings queens pages pips....

              Not that I use those paradigms anymore.
              • Re: origin of the tarot

                Wed, March 26, 2008 - 10:24 AM
                Nice!

                Civilisation IS a spirited discussion,
                between experts and individuals
                each with strong opinions
                to help the other, to,
                better organise
                knowledge
                thought
                idea
                ...
                • Re: origin of the tarot

                  Thu, April 3, 2008 - 7:45 AM
                  Greetings. My name is Simon and I have been teaching and reading the Tarot for 40 years now. These wonderful cards sill amaze and illuminate me. As far as the origin of the Tarot, it is a mystery. No one really knows. I like that about them. They have evolved over the years from many different sources and influences. This continues to this day. They are a living tradition.
                  Blessings
                  S.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: origin of the tarot

                    Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:25 AM
                    I too have been working with the Tarot for 40 years and for the past decade or so have devoted a lot of time to research. For as long as I have been reading about the Tarot there has been a charming conceit among Tarotists that "no one knows the origins of the Tarot' (vying with this is a wide - and often entertaining - cavalcade of theories of its development, but that's the stuff of a different post). However, a lot of solid research has been done that shows that not to be so.

                    We now know for certain (the primary and secondary sources are quite good and growing more available) that the Tarot developed in the ferment of Renaissance Italy, where old knowledge was being rediscovered at an astonishing rate, which in turn inspired the generation of new knowledge in art, engineering, philosophy, mathematics, metaphysics, &c. For that glorious 100+ years, the fascination with both Eastern and Western mysteries and the rediscovered elements of the Graeco-Roman world combined with the humanistic transformation of the Judeo-Christian worldview to create the foundations of the modern world.

                    The Tarot started as a very erudite and philosophical card game, and from the beginning was soaked with archetypal resonance and the Art of Memory. From these elegant and profound roots over the centuries it evolved into the extraordinarily stimulating and useful metaphysical and divinatory tool that we know today. The Tarot can - and is often made to - incorporate the entirety of the Western mystery tradition and its occult disciplines, but still shimmers with its own unique amalgam of elements.
  • Re: origin of the tarot

    Fri, April 4, 2008 - 11:12 AM
    I think the tarot is even older than Egyptian culture. But that's just my feeling, I don't have an proof.
    • Re: origin of the tarot

      Fri, April 4, 2008 - 1:47 PM
      A direct, lineal trace past the late Medieval/early Renaissance? no.

      The Tarot is steeped in archetypes, which are timeless and embedded in the human psyche. Art and culture sink similar tap roots into the great well of consciousness and knowledge that the Tarot does. Egypt has had a profound influence on Western culture, and it was venerated - and in some cases preserved (in one form or another) - by the Greeks, who in turn were greatly esteemed (and had their culture assimilated) by the Romans, who were in turn much admired (and had great chunks of their culture appropriated) by the those who fueled the rebirth/recreation of knowledge in what we now call the Renaissance. Therefore, there is an Egyptian strain in the Tarot, as there is in much of the West's mystery traditions.
      • Re: origin of the tarot

        Fri, April 4, 2008 - 1:54 PM
        What about the Atlantean connection? =D
        • Re: origin of the tarot

          Wed, April 9, 2008 - 11:34 AM
          I'll say it again, simply.

          The tarot as it exists today is the latest version of...
          Yes, the cards appeared in rennaiscance italy with pictures current for that era,
          using updated archetypal images and egyptian symbology. (gypsies)
          Just as the kabalah (tree) appeared in spain shortly thereafter.
          Both systems are puzzles: they teach you to solve them.
          Both came from the same place, and are in fact, the same lady in a different hat.
          BOTH exist to train you to become aware of awareness.
          BOTH ORIGINATE in the pattern of universal manifestation,
          by which the source divides and devolves itself into "reality".
          In addition, astrology, numerology, the runes, and,
          virtually all occult symbolism!
          shares this origin.

          any fool with a case of mild psychism can pick it up and,
          use it to con and in form instinctively...
          but dogs are clever too!
          that is completely unrelated to the knowledge contained
          in these systems of spiritual evolution and awareness.

          Also, I've spent most of my life cleaning up the messes
          left by ignorant people still doing things without truth,
          technique, or understanding for 40 years. Boring.
    • Re: origin of the tarot

      Wed, April 9, 2008 - 12:25 PM
      My assertion that it's older than Egyptian culture pertains to the major arcana only. The minor arcana is probably a later development. Again, these are my feelings about it, not anything scientific or scholarly.

      David
      • Re: origin of the tarot

        Wed, April 9, 2008 - 12:56 PM
        It's because archetypal resonance is archetypal resonance. The forms alter (but don't really change all that much) but the landscape remains us.
        • Re: origin of the tarot

          Wed, April 9, 2008 - 6:36 PM
          That could be it. The archetypes of the major arcana are very universal.
          • Re: origin of the tarot

            Thu, April 10, 2008 - 11:26 AM
            I think that one of the big reasons why Tarot keeps attracting new interpretations and getting used in new and different ways is that the baseline - the archetypes - sort of form an infrastructure upon which one can hang a variety concepts and disciplines. Humans tell each other stories that work because they utilise these images and concepts. Those resonances in the Tarot create the both the timelessness and the immediacy that makes it so useful and versatile. Even people who have never seen the Tarot respond to the images in often remarkable ways, and the more one works with the Tarot the more meanings and connexions one discovers.
  • Re: origin of the tarot

    Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:11 AM
    Long ago Air=es could rise in the east and someone invented a simolified zodiac. Nowadays the skies are not at all like Crowley assumed them to be. How do we deal with TWO SIGNS of error? namely what was once Scorpius is nowadays Virgo as you are born with Sun in Virgo but your daly astrology has you Scorpio. Does this affect the readings? In one version of the Matrix tarot we had all the 22 zodiacal constellations, dwarf planets and 16 ascendants, that is the modern sky. lulu.com/astrology
    • Re: origin of the tarot

      Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:06 PM
      *** How do we deal with TWO SIGNS of error? namely what was once Scorpius is nowadays Virgo as you are born with Sun in Virgo but your daly astrology has you Scorpio. Does this affect the readings? ***

      I have little or no grasp on the more technical aspects of astrology (waaaaay too much math for me), but I'd probably treat it like being on a cusp - read both horoscopes, see which one fits best :D I do this anyway, because I'm a Capricorn w/a Pisces moon, and sometimes being Capricorn can be so hideously boring.

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