Is sagittarius THe chariot card or temperance.. or maby both?
does anyone know?
does anyone know?
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 6:06 AMthe chariot is definatley aries, temperance is more like libra or aquarius, sag would probabley be the knight of wands -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 8:51 AMVII - The Chariot = Cancer
XIV - Temperance (or Art) = Sag
hope this helps
peace
jams -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 11:46 AMBelieve it or not, it will depend on which tarot set you use.
I read the Merlin Tarot by R. J. Stewart. He like many other authors have adapted the tarot/kabala to fit their language(ideaology) more adequately. For example, in the Merlin the Fool is card no.7 and is designated as a Master Trump.
The Merlin associates the temperance Card to The Sun, The Zodiac and Neptune in particular. Here's an interesting quote from his book...
"Temprence is the balancing image to the Hamnged Man. While the Hanged Man represents individuality turned inside out, transformed and moved inwardly towards ultimate understanding, Temperance shows energy moving outwards. Power radiates from a Universal source towards a harmonious, creative and ultimately individual expression.
In a physical sense Temperance symbolizes a connection between the Sun as center a world and all the other stars."
R.J. relates the Chariot to Mercury.
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 11:51 AMAccording to the Golden Dawn attributions, generally adopted by Crowley for the Thoth Deck with the exceptions of The Emperor and the Star, James is correct. There are other systems of attributions around, but they fail to convince me. And the Knight of Wands, if we are talking about the Thoth Tarot, is attributed to Sagittarius, Mutable Fire. Or more accurately, to the last decan of Scorpio and the first two decans of Sagittarius. Strange are the ways of the Court Cards.
The sign of Sagittarius is also attributed to the Art Trump in Thoth, same as the Temperance Trump in Rider-Waite.
And I am a Crab, so I have studied these systems in some detail.
With love,
Bob, aka Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 3:26 AMTHanks for the respnse and advice from you all. i not only learned more about which card is which but also that there are also more cards that deal with a particular sign also.. is there a tribe post that shows the card / decan / sign line up? -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 5:52 AMIt's an opinion, not a science...:-))))
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, December 1, 2007 - 6:30 AM<is there a tribe post that shows the card / decan / sign line up?>
Dear PJV,
Yes there is in fact. Some time ago, I posted a series of three messages on this board covering all the cards and their astrolgical associations according to the Golden Dawn/Crowley systems. it is located in a thread called "Should we learn or unlearn Tarot?" Or you can find it at the link below. I took me three posts because I made a couple of mistakes in the second and posted the third as a correction.
tribes.tribe.net/e1ebf23c-...bce4a5ea30
With love,
Bob Pendell, aka Adastra,
The Wizzard of Jacksonville
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 9:18 AMSince we have touched upon the Chariot and Temperance, I 'll just address the Knight of Wands.
If one views the Knight of Wands as Fire of Fire, then this Knight would indeed be astrologically
assigned to Sagittarius. Or, to be more specific, it would be seen as 20 degrees Scorpio to
20 degrees Sagittarius. . Typically, this Knight is referred to as a Sagittarius. But, in reality, he
is two thirds Sagittarius and one third Scorpio. Btw, Robert Kennedy, Frank Sinatra, and Mary
Queen of Scots were Knights of Wands.
LLL,
Max
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 10:30 PMChariot = Cancer
Temperance = Sagittarius
I think that the Chariot is one of the most misunderstood cards in the major arcana. It's not about speed or action, it's about opening your perceptions so that you can see where you are going. The path of life doesn't open up for you until you open up for it. Another name for this card I like to use is the Navigator.
IMO,
David -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 6:57 AMWhat if VII Chariot = Libra
and XIV Temperance = Mercury
a complet new old view
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 9:15 AMWell, whatever the Chariot is supposed to mean, I do know that whnever it comes up in a reading for me, it is good for finding work. Especially if it comes with he Ace of Coins of the Princess of Wands.
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 11:18 AMdavid says: It's not about speed or action, it's about opening your perceptions so that you can see where you are going. The path of life doesn't open up for you until you open up for it. Another name for this card I like to use is the Navigator.
yes....this is a good way to see the chariot. to me it is about knowing the multitude of ways you can proceed at any given time. the chariot card came from the vision of ezekiel in the old testament, it's my natal birth card (7), and it just so happens that ezekiel is my mother's maiden name.
so i've thought a lot about this card...and find it has so much info...that it's a massive learning card. I equate it with levels of movement both inner and outer, cycles, and the idea that when we are in allignment with ourselves, on all levels, our movements will reflect that. -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 4:46 PMwhat card represents Capricorn?????? -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sat, October 20, 2007 - 6:16 PMREALLY??????
No way? Really???? -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 10:37 PMAbsolutely!
Ever wonder why ol' Beelzebub is always represented as a goat? -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 3:25 AMCapricorn = 10 Wheel of Fortune -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 1:25 PMso which one is it?
is it the devil or is it the "wheel" -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, October 22, 2007 - 3:34 PMit's the devil
wheel is jupiter (on the thoth deck) -
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 6:19 AMi guess you could say cards each have different personalities and that being as such have different zodiac signes working through each, though it is hard to see cancer in the chariot that may be true for some, emotions do tend to get that way sometimes!
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 10:07 AMHere's some articles I wrote on these two cards, with astrological correspondences. I consider both of these cards to be "gateway" cards, acting as doorways between different phases of the major arcana journey.
7 / The Chariot
Gateway of the West
Sign of Cancer
The Chariot card shows us how to navigate through life by paying attention. Some people interpret this card as having a very active element of movement and adventure. My own emphasis is somewhat different. In my view, the Chariot is a card of slow and gradual movement. It is about using care and caution to move forward. You do this by bringing your whole self to each step you are taking, and being fully aware of each step. In this way this card is about mindfulness in motion. There is surely adventure to this card. Life is an adventure, and the adventure of life is made possible by the faculties of our perception. Through our perceptions we are able to move through this life experience.
In Vedic astrology, the Chariot card corresponds with the sign of Cancer, a cardinal water sign ruled by the Moon. Cancer is the energetic field of the Moon in action in our lives. Remember that the Moon or Priestess card represents the ability to listen and perceive things as they are. The Chariot takes this ability of true perception and uses it to help us find our way through life. The Chariot carries our home with us through life. Our perceptions are like a wondrous vessel that carries our consciousness through our life experience. I like to think of the Chariot as a glorious dream ship. Just like the nurturing energy of the maternal Moon, this ship holds us and gently guides us through life.
In my unique understanding of Toltec shamanism, the Chariot is one of four gateway cards. Specifically, it is the gateway of the west. In European shamanism, this direction relates to the element of water. In this schematic, the gateway of the west card is the gateway between the masteries of awareness and transformation. It shows the completion of the mastery of awareness. The Chariot card depicts a being with clear perception. It is the energy of full awareness that allows us to pay attention within and without. It is this energy that helps us navigate through life.
Find the Chariot card in your favorite tarot deck, and place it somewhere you will see it. Bring the energy of the Chariot into all aspects of your life.
(c) 2004 by David Ray
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14 / Temperance
Gateway of the South
Sign of Sagittarius
The Temperance card is the card of becoming the artist of your own life. It represents the point in your path when you are able to work energetically with all areas of your life, thoughts and emotions as well as physical matter. This is the secret wisdom of personal alchemy. Medeival alchemists aspired to transform lead into gold. But the language of metals was just a metaphor for the transformation that can take place within the human spirit, changing our inert patterns into vital joy and liberation. The word temperance refers to the dynamic balance that occurs between the elements, specifically fire and water. By balancing fire with water and water with fire, we are not limited by either. The fire of sunlight and the water of rain create the magnificent miracle of the rainbow. By blending the elemental constituents of our experience in conscious ways, we create the work of art that is our life.
In Vedic astrology, the Temperance card corresponds to the sign of Sagittarius. Sagittarius is a mutable fire sign ruled by Jupiter. It is a fire sign but it is mutable fire, which is a tempered fire. While Aries is physical fire of the earth plane, and Leo is the bright shining fire of the ego, Sagittarius is the celestial fire, which has elements of fire and water. The ruler of Sagittarius, Jupiter is actually a watery planet in Vedic astrology. It corresponds to the wood element in Chinese mysticism, which is an element of growth. Sagittarius loves the freedom to grow and expand. Sagittarius is a creative sign, showing ambition and exploration.
In my schematic of the Tarot and Toltec shamanism, this card is the gateway of the south. It is the gateway between the masteries of transformation and intent. Temperance shows the completion of the mastery of transformation and contains all six cards preceding it, from Strength to Death. Remember Strength is Leo (fixed fire) while Death is Scorpio (fixed water). Temperance shows the completion of the path between fire and water. The mastery of awareness occurs between the gateways of east and west, showing the spinning of the earth and the path of the tonal. The mastery of transformation occurs between the gateways of west and south (water and fire), showing the axis between the tonal and unknown realm of the nagual, which is related to the poles of the earth (north and south). With this card, you have gained the ability to transform your perceptions and you can now use this ability to create your life anew, free from the limitations of old ways of dreaming.
The Temperance card in some ways is what the Tarot is all about. With this card you realize that everything you experience, all the raw ingredients of your life and even the painful ones, are just hues on your artist's pallet. Temperance is all about freedom and liberation. This is the place where you realize that enlightenment is all about lightening up.
Find the Temperance card from your favorite Tarot deck. Put it somewhere you will notice it. Invite the energy of the Temperance in your card. Imagine that you are this enigmatic angel, immersed in the energetic reality of life, free to move energy as you see fit. You are free to become the artist of your own life.
(c) 2004 by David Ray -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 1:05 AMhave you written similar articles on other trumps? Death for example? I googled you in hopes of finding similar elaborations. -
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 8:37 AMArt,
My own website is having problems. For now, you can read all of my tarot articles, including Death, at:
www.lolatarot.org/tarot-journey.htm
Thanks for asking!
DR -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 3:18 PMDear David,
Thank you for offering your url. I just joined this tribe and have very much enjoyed reading your posts
on the Chariot and Temperance cards. Look forward to visiting your site.
LLL,
Max -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 2:53 PM<<The Rider Waite Deck carries a very heavy male influence based on religious dogma and not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. There are other decks like The Merlin with more balance or that are balanced. >>
many of the figures in Waite-Smith deck are gender neutral. Attributing "heavy male energy" to Pixie Smith's artwork does her, her life and her artwork a profound disservice. -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 6:48 PMThe Heirophant is portrayed as the Pope, which is certainly a male role. His equal and polar opposit the hermit, is another male. I would call this a very heavy male influance regardless of the artists representations.
Making most figures neutral does not balance the yin and yang (nor would making all of them nuetral create balance either), it's more likely to confuse it. My point about balance isn't that it's right or otherwise or that others are wrong, my point is there are allot of decks out there that are different for various reasons. Some are extremely different.
R-W-S had reasons for what and how they portrayed the images. Also as you look at the R-W-S works you'll notice allot of symboloism from Order Of The Golden Dawn, this also creates an imbalanced view with the possible exception of people who belong to the GD or other secret societies. One site I referenced even suggests that it was "sexism" that left Pamela largely ignored for her contributions, interesting huh?
Tarot is so visually oriented yet in most tarot sets the artist isn't the author. The artists are not writing the book that goes with the cards, hence the names behind colaberations. They are usually drawing the cards to fulfil the authors vision. It is not uncommon for a card to be drawn oneway and have an instruction in the book that says otherwise.
I see the Hermit as a male energy moving in a feminine form, "The old man withdrawing" and The Heirophant as a female engery moving in a masculine form, The young woman expressing and moving energy from within outward. -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Fri, November 30, 2007 - 6:18 AMDear Frank,
I agree with you that "It is not uncommon for a card to be drawn one way and have an instruction
in the book that says otherwise. " Looking at RWS, the Ace of Cups shows five streams of water. Yet,
Waite's description speaks of four. And, looking at the Devil, Waite notes "At the pit of the stomach,
there is the sign of Mercury." No such sign exists. It appears that Waite intended the sign to be there.
However, it appears that Pixie decided against it since they were using the GD correspondence of
Capricorn for the Devil. Waite apparently had Levi's Baphomet in mind.
Good point Frank!
LLL,
Max
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 10:21 AMHere are all the astrological correspondences of the major arcana, as I see it. I agree there are different ways of working with the major arcana, and everyone should feel free to explore and experiment with different correspondences. This schematic is taught by most tarot teachers and books, with some modifications that I made. I wanted to get back to the traditional planets of astrology. The newer planets were only discovered in the past few hundred years (Pluto in the 1930's), and tarot is much older than that. So I was going on the assumption that originally the outer planets were not given major arcana correspondences. Through my meditations and studies, this is what I came up with, and it has worked very well for me. The gateway cards split the major arcana into three phases or masteries of six cards each (666).
Fool - Rahu, the North Node of the Moon (gateway of the east)
Magician - Mercury
Priestess - Moon
Empress - Venus
Emperor - Aries
Hierophant - Taurus
Lovers - Gemini
Chariot - Cancer (gateway of the west)
Strength - Leo
Hermit - Virgo
Fortune - Jupiter
Justice - Libra
Hanged One - Ketu, the South Node of the Moon
Death - Scorpio
Temperance - Sagittarius (gateway of the south)
Devil - Capricorn
Tower - Mars
Star - Aquarius
Moon - Pisces
Sun - Sun
Judgment - Saturn
World - Earth (gateway of the north)
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 5:17 AMgee everyone has their own blief system ,,why am i not surprised...i think the moral of this story is that whatever works for you ,,works and that finally the cards are just a channel and they actually do not matter at all
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 1:27 PMAccording to the Golden Dawn System, the Chariot is Water or Cancer. And, Temperance is Fire or
Sagittarius. Some other systems have assigned Sagittarius and Capricorn to the Chariot, but that's
another thread.
LLL,
Max
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Sun, November 25, 2007 - 1:50 PMChariot, Libra air
Temperance, Mercury air.... it's all an opinionnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 1:12 AMWhat is the basis for your differing correspondences for the planetary and astrological? The Golden Dawn based decks have correspondences that are based on very specific information not just arbitrary opinion. -
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Re: Chariot or Temperance
Mon, November 26, 2007 - 11:55 AMThe Rider Waite Deck carries a very heavy male influence based on religious dogma and not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. There are other decks like The Merlin with more balance or that are balanced.
There are over a thousand different tarot decks out there. As similar as they are, they are all different. I see each set as a language. We all have different perspectives, identities and issues and because of this we will be communicating with different types of people. Essentially delivering the same message just from a different perspective.
Authors have constantly altered the order and relations of the tarot to suit their own means, to complete their language. Some decks you can see they did this only to be different, others wanted to create a specific influence while others simply copied. Often they go as far as altering the positions of the Kabalah/Quabala and the associations of the cards themselves...The Merlin is another excellent example of this.
If your interested in checking out the Merlin here's a link to one of the authours sites.
www.rjstewart.net -
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Unsu...
Re: Chariot or Temperance
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 5:57 PMoh and the knight of wands is definatley sagitarius
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