Sounds like something somebody on this tribe might consider.
Posted: 10:43 PM ET
(CNN) — School administrators in Ohio voted Friday to begin the process of firing a middle school teacher accused of burning a cross into a student’s arm and refusing to keep his religious beliefs out of the classroom.
The Mount Vernon School Board passed a resolution to terminate the employment of John Freshwater, an eighth-grade science teacher for the past 21 years.
Freshwater, according to an independent report, used an electrostatic device to mark a cross on the arm of one of his students — causing pain to the student the night of the incident and leaving a mark that lasted for approximately 3 weeks.
According to the Ohio Department of Education, the student’s family has filed a lawsuit.
Freshwater was also reprimanded several times for refusing to move his Bible from his classroom desk and teaching creationism alongside evolution, according to the 15-page independent report. The report also cites evidence that Mr. Freshwater told his students that “science is wrong because the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin and so anyone who is gay chooses to be gay and is therefore a sinner.”
Hoping they sue the bastard into the poor house.
Posted: 10:43 PM ET
(CNN) — School administrators in Ohio voted Friday to begin the process of firing a middle school teacher accused of burning a cross into a student’s arm and refusing to keep his religious beliefs out of the classroom.
The Mount Vernon School Board passed a resolution to terminate the employment of John Freshwater, an eighth-grade science teacher for the past 21 years.
Freshwater, according to an independent report, used an electrostatic device to mark a cross on the arm of one of his students — causing pain to the student the night of the incident and leaving a mark that lasted for approximately 3 weeks.
According to the Ohio Department of Education, the student’s family has filed a lawsuit.
Freshwater was also reprimanded several times for refusing to move his Bible from his classroom desk and teaching creationism alongside evolution, according to the 15-page independent report. The report also cites evidence that Mr. Freshwater told his students that “science is wrong because the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin and so anyone who is gay chooses to be gay and is therefore a sinner.”
Hoping they sue the bastard into the poor house.
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:17 PM"The report also cites evidence that Mr. Freshwater told his students that “science is wrong because the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin and so anyone who is gay chooses to be gay and is therefore a sinner.”
Hoping they sue the bastard into the poor house."
What persecute the guy for telling the truth Erik? You wouldn't want his telling impressionable children that guys like you are normal would you?
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:18 PMbtw, just curious. did you stop to look at the name of this tribe before posting or were you in a drunkin stupor? -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 12:30 AM"What persecute the guy for telling the truth Erik? You wouldn't want his telling impressionable children that guys like you are normal would you?"
No, PROSECUTE, for telling lies.
www.slate.com/id/2193841/
I can't wait until they find a test for this, which will be long before they come up with a way to manipulate it. Just watch how the moralistic anti-abortion crowd (I assume Dan is a member) becomes unborn baby murderers. How many kids ya got now Dan? Eventually the roll of the dice is gonna make one gay, if it hasn't already. LOL -
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 4:51 AM"How many kids ya got now Dan? Eventually the roll of the dice is gonna make one gay, if it hasn't already. LOL"
I don't gamble Erik. Gayness is not a "roll of the dice". This is where you are dead wrong. I live near an Amish community and have *never* heard of an Amish gay person. Why? Male Homosexuality is the result of a disfunctional relationship between the father and Son. This is something you don't see in the Amish as father Son relationships are very strong. I have 7 boys, none of them will be gay. -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 6:22 AMYou can believe whatever you wish. Wishing, however, does not make it so. Call it what you want, there is a pretty good chance one of your prodigy is gay. And, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. How many daughters?
Just because YOU have never heard of an Amish gay person does not make their existence any less probable either. Just because you can't understand the truth of something (evolution for that matter) and you want to "fill in the gaps" so to speak, with your superstition, does not make it so. It is called an argument ad ignorantiam. Feel free to look it up. I'm sure you could Google it.
As for you never having "heard" of an Amish gay person?
zacstolzfuts.blogspot.com/2003/...t.html
Now you have, filling in another of the gaps in your ignorance. Providing you weren't afraid to read it.
Here, if you dare:
www.pnas.org/cgi/content...0801566105v1 -
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:00 AMErik, you are a fool. Amish have very large families, just as I do, and virtually no homosexuals among them. That you can google to fine one establishes nothing. It is still statistically zero. Some Amish divorce also, but this is extremely rare. No science studies prove your contention that homosexuality is innate. I don't have to believe anything other than the facts of science to know this. There are no homosexuals from either side of my family and both had large familys. Homosexuality is a deviancy and nothing more. Get used to the facts.
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:08 AMOn the first link, there was this interesting comment at the bottom:
"I am not sure what to make of our now 87 year old exAmish artist friend, SO...
I sent him an email in Amish. Not even Germans can understand it much!
The only way that he'll be able to understand it is if he's of Amish background OR if he's a genius like me and learned it.
Peace and Love!"
There was not response by our Amish gay person.......
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:14 AMyour second link fails to establish your premise either Erik. Nothing in the abstract indicates that this author feels this study proves that homosexuality is innate.
What is clear, however, is that the scientific attempts to demonstrate that homosexual attraction is biologically determined have failed. The major researchers now prominent in the scientific arena-themselves gay activists-have in fact arrived at such conclusions.
Researcher Dean Hamer (1993), for example, attempted to link male homosexuality to a stretch of DNA located a the tip of the X chromosome, the chromosome that some men inherit from their mothers. Referring to that research, Hamer offered some conclusions regarding genetics and homosexuality.
"We knew that genes were only part of the answer. We assumed the environment also played a role in sexual orientation, as it does in most, if not all behaviors..."(Hamer and Copeland, 1994, p. 82).
"Homosexuality is not purely genetic...environmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay...I don't think we will ever predict who will be gay" (Mitchell, 1995).
Citing the failure of their research, Hamer & Copeland further write,
"The pedigree failed to produce what we originally hoped to find: simple Mendelian inheritance. In fact, we never found a single family in which homosexuality was distributed in the obvious pattern that Mendel observed in his pea plants" (1994, p. 104).
What's more interesting is that when Hamer's study was duplicated by Rice et al with research that was more robust, the genetic markers were found to be nonsignificant. Rice et al concluded:
"It is unclear why our results are so discrepant from Hamer's original study. Because our study was larger than that of Hamer et al, we certainly had adequate power to detect a genetic effect as large as reported in that study. Nonetheless, our data do not support the presence of a gene of large effect influencing sexual orientation at position XQ 28" (Rice et al, 1999, p.667).
Simon LeVay, in his study of the hypothalamic differences between the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men, offered the following criticisms of his own research:
"It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain.
"The INAH 3 is less likely to be the sole gay nucleus of the brain than a part of a chain of nuclei engaged in men and women's sexual behavior....Since I looked at adult brains, we don't know if the differences I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later." (Nimmons, 1994, p. 64).
Indeed, in commenting on the brain and sexual behavior, Dr. Mark Breedlove, a researcher at the University of California at Berkeley, demonstrated that sexual behavior can actually change brain structure. Referring to his research, Breedlove states:
"These findings give us proof for what we theoretically know to be the case-that sexual experience can alter the structure of the brain, just as genes can alter it. [I]t is possible that differences in sexual behavior cause (rather than are caused) by differences in the brain" (Breedlove, 1997, p. 801).
Our Perception of Science Alters Politics
LeVay made an interesting observation about the emphasis on the biology of homosexuality. He noted, "...people who think that gays and lesbians are born that way are also more likely to support gay rights" (1996, p. 282)
The third study, which was conducted by Bailey and Pillard, focused on twins. They found a concordance (both twins homosexual) rate of 52% among identical twins, 22% among non-identical twins and a 9.2 % among non-twins. This study actually provides support for environmental factors. If homosexuality were in the genetic code, all of the identical twins would have been homosexual (1991).
Prominent research teams Byne and Parsons, and also Friedman and Downey, each concluded that there was no evidence to support a biologic theory, but rather that homosexuality could be best explained by an alternative model where "temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieu as the individual's sexuality emerges" (Byne and Parsons, 1993; Friedman and Downey, 1993).
Are homosexual attractions innate? There is no support in the scientific research for the conclusion that homosexuality is biologically determined.
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:28 AMall of this stuff about burning crosses into students arm is "alleged". But Erik wants to "sue the bastard into the poor house" based upon these alledged misdeeds, prior to any opportunity for the teacher to defend himself. -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 9:18 AM>all of this stuff about burning crosses into students arm is "alleged". But Erik wants to "sue the bastard into the poor house" based upon these alledged misdeeds, prior to any opportunity for the teacher to defend himself.<
Just as any crime is technically "alleged" until a jury says guilty or not guilty.
If the facts of the charges are strong enough a law suit is the least of his worries. In my jurisdiction its called aggravated assault - that can get you 10 to 20 with a nice new roommate who wants to get much closer to you. -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 10:39 AMDan:
No gay Amish?
www.tandra.com/Pages/joeamish.html
www.youtube.com/watch
www.durangoherald.com/asp-bin...tion.asp
www.blahstuff.com/oldstuff/...as-sprung/
Here, buy a book or two if you are interested in the subject. Maybe just latently?
www.amazon.com/s
How many girls? Just trying to figure the odds.
"Are homosexual attractions innate? There is no support in the scientific research for the conclusion that homosexuality is biologically determined."
And, you are a scientist, aren’t you? At least you claimed to be, right? Perhaps a little reading list for you would be helpful. None at all? Please note, none of this is referenced in the Bible.
www.sciencemag.org/cgi/cont.../5119/321
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8953572
www.time.com/time/magazi...3393,00.html
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10743878
www.sciencedirect.com/science
www.springerlink.com/content...at48y3q/
psycnet.apa.org/
psycnet.apa.org/
www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/a...1598.x
www.iisc.ernet.in/academy/j...o3/251.pdf
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrie...1003907
www.pnas.org/cgi/content.../102/20/7356
www.pnas.org/cgi/content.../103/21/8269
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10900997
www.springerlink.com/content...9waqejy/
www.springerlink.com/content...8u408q1/
www.sciencedirect.com/science
And that only took about five minutes. They are a miniscule fraction of the actual, peer reviewed, scientific research papers exploring the biological reasons for homosexuality. Not whether it is biological, as it is well established, but why. And I never said it was genetic, you did. Red herring. There are plenty of other biological causes besides genetics for many natural occurrences. In fact, the article I posted from Slate makes this very point. But, as you probably don't read much that contradicts your narrow minded world view, it makes sense that you didn't notice. You are simply wrong. As usual. I wonder, if you had been able to do a test of your children in vitro, to determine the truth, just what you would have done? Would you have loved them for what they are? Would you have aborted them? Perhaps given them away for somebody else to deal with, while burying your head in the sand? Maybe you would have sent them to a psychological facility to fix them?
Of course, the last would be the greatest crime of them all. I don't doubt your capacity for it.
You could become honest with yourself, and actually look at the evidence. At which point, if you still deny the facts, you would simply prove your innate ignorance of rational thought, or that you are merely a poor, found out, liar. But, I doubt it. Instead, you will bury your head in that stinking tome, so full of evil, written by man during the bronze age, and passed down through the ignorant ages, to you. -
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Unsu...
Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 5:06 AMnothing you have offered proves your point Erik. Keep trying though, it is probably the first time in awhile you have at least tried to think. -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 9:58 AMPossibly. Merely supposition on your part though. And my point was?
How many girls? -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 4:00 AMDamn. It appears that Dan went and got himself booted. Here's hoping he's still reading this.
Sexual AntagonismA genetic theory of homosexuality.
By William Saletan
Posted Wednesday, June 25, 2008, at 8:04 AM ET
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?
A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man's male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.
Can genes account for these patterns? To find out, the authors posit several possible mechanisms and compute their effects over time. They conclude that only one theory fits the data. The theory is called "sexually antagonistic selection." It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it's helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men's mothers, sisters, and aunts.
This theory doesn't account for female homosexuality, which another new study (reviewed in Human Nature last week) attributes to nongenetic factors. It also doesn't account for environmental or prenatal chemical factors in male homosexuality, such as the correlation between a man's probability of homosexuality and the number of boys previously gestated in his mother's womb. But it does explain the high similarity of sexual orientation between identical twins, as well as patterns of homosexuality in families. It's also plausible because sexually antagonistic selection has been found in other species. And many scientists who think environmental and prenatal factors influence homosexuality also believe that genes play a role.
The authors note that according to their computations, the theory implies some testable predictions. One such prediction can be checked against existing data. The prediction is that on average, if you're a straight man, the reproductive pattern among your aunts will reverse the pattern seen among aunts of gay men. That is, your paternal aunts will produce children at a higher rate than your maternal aunts will. The authors check this prediction against the available data. Sure enough, it holds up.
I don't know to what extent this theory will end up explaining male homosexuality. But its emergence threatens to change our thinking about gay men in several important ways.
First, it implies natural limits to homosexuality. You don't need to worry that gay teachers or television characters will "convert" hordes of boys. Sexually antagonistic selection is self-limiting and impervious to postnatal cultural factors. The authors' computations show no scenario in which male homosexuality spreads throughout a population.
Second, by the same token, you can't culturally eradicate the gay minority. It's sustained by genetics and natural selection.
Third, if the authors are correct, we're not really talking about genes for homosexuality. We're talking about genes for "androphilia," i.e., attraction to men. The importance of the genes lies in what they do not to men but to women, by increasing reproductive output so powerfully that these women compensate for the reduced output among their male relatives. You can't isolate gay men as a puzzle or problem anymore. You have to see them as part of a bigger, stronger, enduring phenomenon.
Fourth, this larger phenomenon can't be dismissed as a disorder. The study's press release concludes that "homosexuality should not be viewed as a detrimental trait (due to the reduced male fecundity it entails), but, rather, should be considered within the wider evolutionary framework of a characteristic with gender-specific benefits."
Fifth, the benefits aren't really confined to women. They protect society as a whole. The authors' computations indicate that as a society's birthrate falls, female carriers of androphilic genes account for a larger share of the output. In short, the genes provide a "buffer effect" against extinction.
The study's lead author, Andrea Camperio Ciani of the University of Padova, sees these ramifications as a happy ending. "This is an example where the results of scientific research can have important social implications," he tells LiveScience. "You have all this antagonism against homosexuality because they say it's against nature because it doesn't lead to reproduction. We found out this is not true because homosexuality is just one of the consequences of strategies for making females more fecund."
But the word consequence suggests a sixth, less happy implication: How would gay men see themselves and be regarded in a society that understood their condition as a side effect of female evolution? Would male androphilia be treated like sickle-cell anemia—the unfortunate cost of a genetic mutation that's beneficial in other people? We medicate sickle-cell anemia. Would we medicate homosexuality?
I don't know, and neither does Dr. Camperio Ciani. Science, like culture and politics, has its happy moments. But don't mistake them for endings.
In other words, Dan, if any of your boys turns out to be gay (and there really isn't anything you can do about it), your daughters will probably have more kids. Kinda kool the way those evolutionary factors work out eh? -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 7:18 AMThanks for the interesting article, Erik. I encountered a similar theory in a discussion on Tribe several years ago, where the claim was that homosexuality had the benefit of providing more adults to protect and care for children, leading to family groups with more members having these traits expressed to have better potential for survival of the children that were produced. That one does not make much sense to me and I argued that this just would not work in the way that it was proposed to work. I got attacked as being anti-gay for seeing the obvious flaws in this theory. The one put forth in your article makes more sense, although I have some doubts about it also. The most apparent question for me is does a greater degree of attraction to men really result in more children for certain women?. It seems that it might be true, but I am not sure that it is. Also, it does not seem to me that whatever it is that attracts a woman to man is the same thing that might attract a man to man. For me, it is really inconcievable that a man could be attracted to a man, I just don't get it, but I understand there are men that feel this, so obviously my grasp of what is going on here is not all that good. -
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Re: A different kind of cross burning.
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 12:30 AMAnthropologists talk about adaptive and mal-adaptive aspects of societies. As genetic mutation is random, it can have both aspects as well.
Dawkins made this point when he was writing about the possibility of religious belief being innate. He postulated that the human trait of listening to older, supposedly wiser, members of society, and generally obeying their orders (suggestions), might account for this. He uses the example of children told "don't go near the cliff edge" or words to that effect. Those that obey tend to pass on their genes, those that don't, don't. This same trait, might account for our believing superstitions promulgated by the "older" and "wiser" patriarchs. It would also account for children's susceptibility to advances by pedophiles. Both of which I classify as mal-adaptive.
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