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"Benjamin Carson: The Pediatric Neurosurgeon with Gifted Hands
by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.*
Introduction
Benjamin S. Carson, M.D., one of the world's foremost pediatric neurosurgeons, is professor and chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.1 Born on September 18, 1951, in Detroit to a single mother in a working class neighborhood, Ben showed promise from a young age.2 A graduate of Yale and the University of Michigan Medical School, he was rated by a Time issue titled "America's Best" as a "super surgeon."3 Dr. Carson was also selected by CNN and Time as one of the nation's top 20 physicians and scientists, and by the Library of Congress as one of 89 "living-legends."4
The rest of the article is a very interesting read, especially Dr. Carsons exchange with Dr. Donald Johanson, famous for the "lucy" discovery. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that evolution is a fairy tail for grown ups, but it is nice to see that one of the worlds best is willing to state the obvious to a hostile audience."
"[Johanson] is famous for his claims that the fossilized specimen he discovered in Africa named "Lucy" represented an extinct species from which the human race descended. In the course of our discussion, he made…a condescending remark when he asserted that "true scientists" base everything they do and decide upon facts, unlike those people who choose to depend on God. So when it was my turn to speak, I made the point that "true scientists" often overlook many, many gaps in what they purport to be fact…when in reality some of their own theories require a great deal of faith to accept.15
The paleoanthropologist responded by jumping out of his chair and rudely interrupting Dr. Carson, who calmly responded by noting that he was
"only making a general observation based on my experience. But if the shoe fits …." Laughter rolled through the audience before I went on to say that religion and science both require faith, that the two disciplines don't always have to be mutually exclusive, that people have to choose where to put their faith, and that choice doesn't make you superior to those who believe differently.15
Dr. Johanson's arrogance was apparent in view of the fact that we know "next to nothing about" how the living brain actually works, not to mention that of our putative evolutionary ancestors.8"
www.icr.org/article/4311/
by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.*
Introduction
Benjamin S. Carson, M.D., one of the world's foremost pediatric neurosurgeons, is professor and chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.1 Born on September 18, 1951, in Detroit to a single mother in a working class neighborhood, Ben showed promise from a young age.2 A graduate of Yale and the University of Michigan Medical School, he was rated by a Time issue titled "America's Best" as a "super surgeon."3 Dr. Carson was also selected by CNN and Time as one of the nation's top 20 physicians and scientists, and by the Library of Congress as one of 89 "living-legends."4
The rest of the article is a very interesting read, especially Dr. Carsons exchange with Dr. Donald Johanson, famous for the "lucy" discovery. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that evolution is a fairy tail for grown ups, but it is nice to see that one of the worlds best is willing to state the obvious to a hostile audience."
"[Johanson] is famous for his claims that the fossilized specimen he discovered in Africa named "Lucy" represented an extinct species from which the human race descended. In the course of our discussion, he made…a condescending remark when he asserted that "true scientists" base everything they do and decide upon facts, unlike those people who choose to depend on God. So when it was my turn to speak, I made the point that "true scientists" often overlook many, many gaps in what they purport to be fact…when in reality some of their own theories require a great deal of faith to accept.15
The paleoanthropologist responded by jumping out of his chair and rudely interrupting Dr. Carson, who calmly responded by noting that he was
"only making a general observation based on my experience. But if the shoe fits …." Laughter rolled through the audience before I went on to say that religion and science both require faith, that the two disciplines don't always have to be mutually exclusive, that people have to choose where to put their faith, and that choice doesn't make you superior to those who believe differently.15
Dr. Johanson's arrogance was apparent in view of the fact that we know "next to nothing about" how the living brain actually works, not to mention that of our putative evolutionary ancestors.8"
www.icr.org/article/4311/
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Mon, January 5, 2009 - 10:28 AMIt often amazes me, how most people blur the lines between qualifications. In a conversation between a pediatric neurosurgeon, and a paleoanthropologist, I would tend to defer to the expertise of each within their field. If my plumber and my electrician disagree about how I've wired my TV, which should I listen to? Why should I be impressed, if the plumber smugly insists that he knows better, which clearly irritates the specialist whose field of study is the applicable one? This is less clever than listening to movie stars for political advice.
From there, it gets worse:
The pediatric surgeon then goes on to imply that "religion and science both require faith." However, it is clear that these fields are not equal. Scientific understanding is built upon reasoned understanding bolstered by established facts. Religion is built upon revelation and dogma, faith in which is a wholly different category. He then reinforces this by implying that a choice of fact over dogma for supporting evidence does not make one superior. That the doctor makes such sweeping blanket statements outside his field of expertise is telling.
The doctor's further claim that we know so little about our own brain, and therefore even less about those of our ancestors is also a misleading claim. We certainly have identified the functions of portions of the brain, we can see their affect on skull morphology, and we can make educated statements thereby, about the probable abilities of our ancestors, when reinforced by fossil artifacts.
That Johanson was upset and insulted by the presumptuous opinions of someone speaking out of their field of expertise and within his is no surprise. The shame lies with those who have overstepped their limitations. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Mon, January 5, 2009 - 11:42 AM"It often amazes me, how most people blur the lines between qualifications. In a conversation between a pediatric neurosurgeon, and a paleoanthropologist, I would tend to defer to the expertise of each within their field. If my plumber and my electrician disagree about how I've wired my TV, which should I listen to? Why should I be impressed, if the plumber smugly insists that he knows better, which clearly irritates the specialist whose field of study is the applicable one? This is less clever than listening to movie stars for political advice."
If the subject were restricted to the study of ancient humans your analogy might hold up. However this analogy breaks down when you consider that both of these men are qualified scientists and a paleoanthropologist is not equally qualifed in all branches of science which touch upon evolution theory. Dr. Carsons comments in relation to Intelligent design, are most definitely within his field of expertise and outside of Dr. Johansens in relation to the following comment:
"I find it as hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight-ready 747.…Which is why not one of us has ever doubted that a 747, by its very existence, gives convincing evidence of someone's intelligent design.12
He then stressed the fact that the human body and brain are "immeasurably more complex, more versatile, more amazing in a gazillion ways than any airplane man has ever created." In short, only an intelligent creator explains "how such a complex, intelligently designed universe could come into existence."
"From there, it gets worse:
The pediatric surgeon then goes on to imply that "religion and science both require faith." However, it is clear that these fields are not equal. Scientific understanding is built upon reasoned understanding bolstered by established facts. Religion is built upon revelation and dogma, faith in which is a wholly different category."
A valid religion is also "built upon reasoned understanding bolstered by established facts" (prophecy, resurrection evidence, historical eyewitness testimony), so even here, they are not mutually exclusive, nor does science have any basis for proclaiming superiority. As I have pointed out in the past, the basic assumptions upon which all science is based are theological and cannot be proven! Furthermore, when you mention science you fail to distinguish between operational science (which brought us the microwave) and historical science, which is a belief about the past based upon presuppostion and inference!
"He then reinforces this by implying that a choice of fact over dogma for supporting evidence does not make one superior. That the doctor makes such sweeping blanket statements outside his field of expertise is telling."
I don't believe this what Dr. Carson was implying at all. Here he is refering to faith in evolution vs. faith in biblical creation and his point is well taken. Either view must ultimately be taken by faith as no one was there to observe the phenomena being asserted. And observation is the foundation of empirical science.
"The doctor's further claim that we know so little about our own brain, and therefore even less about those of our ancestors is also a misleading claim."
Actually, Grim, it is this statement which is misleading. I think you failed to note that this comment was not Dr. Carsons but the author of the article about him.
"We certainly have identified the functions of portions of the brain, we can see their affect on skull morphology, and we can make educated statements thereby, about the probable abilities of our ancestors, when reinforced by fossil artifacts."
This evolution myth has been debunked Grim:
Douglas Jue states, “Because man’s cranial capacity is so variable today, it has been shown that there is very little relationship between cranial capacity and human intelligence.” Jue quotes Ralph Holloway, professor of anthropology at Columbia University, as saying, “One cc of chimpanzee cortex [location of many neurons involved in higher brain functions] is not equivalent of human cortex, nor is it likely that any equivalent measure can be found.” (Douglas Jue, Cranial capacity and endocranial casts, TJ 4(1):56–65, 1990)
"That Johanson was upset and insulted by the presumptuous opinions of someone speaking out of their field of expertise and within his is no surprise. The shame lies with those who have overstepped their limitations."
The shame is all Johanson's. His own most famous research contradicts his beliefs and he knows it. Lucy is ‘imagination made of plaster of paris’ according to his own colleage, Dr. Leaky. Those who believe that the picture for this debate site has any basis in real science are fooling themselves. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Mon, January 5, 2009 - 11:48 AMGrim: "The doctor's further claim that we know so little about our own brain, and therefore even less about those of our ancestors is also a misleading claim."
You might find this article interesting: 10 Unsolved Mysteries Of The Brain
discovermagazine.com/2007/au...ysteries
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Tue, January 6, 2009 - 5:43 AMDan said: If the subject were restricted to the study of ancient humans your analogy might hold up. However this analogy breaks down when you consider that both of these men are qualified scientists and a paleoanthropologist is not equally qualifed in all branches of science which touch upon evolution theory. Dr. Carsons comments in relation to Intelligent design, are most definitely within his field of expertise and outside of Dr. Johansens
So, between a pediatric surgeon and a paleoanthropologist, the surgeon is more qualified regarding evolution? This makes no sense. A paleoanthropologist is an evolutionary specialist. Also, intelligent design creationism is not within the field of expertise of a pediatric surgeon. This doctor may well have studied IDC at length, but it is not a part of his daily work as a surgeon.
Dan said: "I find it as hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight-ready 747.
This simply illustrates my point: That Carson cannot speak competently on the matter of evolution if he does not understand the "ratcheting mechanism" of evolution, and it's effects on the statistics he cites.
Though I mistook the source, I stand behind my statements concerning brain design. I was not implying that cranial capacity was the measure. I was referring to the fact that certain brain structures (ie. broca's area) leave telltale signs imprinted inside skulls. We may tentatively infer from these signs.
Dan said: Lucy is ‘imagination made of plaster of paris’ according to his own colleage, Dr. Leaky
You are incorrect, but close. What Richard said, was that Lucy's skull was too fragmentary to positively identify which exact species that she belonged to. (afarensis, africanus...) There is quite a difference.
Dan said: A valid religion is also "built upon reasoned understanding bolstered by established facts" (prophecy, resurrection evidence, historical eyewitness testimony)
I guess we'll just have to disagree on the definitions of "reasoned understanding" and "established facts." -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Tue, January 6, 2009 - 7:31 AM"So, between a pediatric surgeon and a paleoanthropologist, the surgeon is more qualified regarding evolution?"
He is far more qualified in regards to a discussion of the potential for the most complex piece of matter in the universe to have evolved. And of course, his expertise and knowledge in this area has lead him to dismiss the notion for the absurdity that it is.
"This makes no sense. A paleoanthropologist is an evolutionary specialist. Also, intelligent design creationism is not within the field of expertise of a pediatric surgeon. This doctor may well have studied IDC at length, but it is not a part of his daily work as a surgeon."
Reality is a part of his everday routine and he definitely possess enough knowledge of the scientific method as well as intellectual capacity necessary to comprehend the arguments for and against transubstantation. You seem to be moving to an argument that "the experts are the sole possessors of the Truth of evolution". If this is where you are going then we can all pack up now and go home. My assertion that evolution is religious in nature and has its own "high priests" is sufficiently established.
Dan said: "I find it as hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight-ready 747.
Grim: This simply illustrates my point: That Carson cannot speak competently on the matter of evolution if he does not understand the "ratcheting mechanism" of evolution, and it's effects on the statistics he cites.
This quote of Dr. Carsons is in reality a quote of Sir Fred Hoyles in regards to abiogenesis. Evolutionists today like to separate abiogenesis (i.e. spontaneous generation) from evolution just as the atheist likes to play word games to avoid logical flaws in their philosophy. But evolutionists of old understood that it is one continuous theory and that you must have abiogenesis if you are to have evolution. Neither has been observed and both are equally ridiculous Grim. There is not one shred of evidence to support the theory in genetics, another field that Dr. Carson is likely more proficient in than Dr. Johanson.
"Though I mistook the source, I stand behind my statements concerning brain design. I was not implying that cranial capacity was the measure. I was referring to the fact that certain brain structures (ie. broca's area) leave telltale signs imprinted inside skulls. We may tentatively infer from these signs."
Too many unfounded inferences are made by evolutionists from looking at the skelletal remains. Time and again they find themselves to be wrong once the "living fossil" is discovered. The whole theory is nothing but inference built upon inference and just so stories cobbled together to create the myth. When you get down to details the myth becomes all too apparent. Dr. Carson is not as easily fooled as the scientific novice.
Dan said: Lucy is ‘imagination made of plaster of paris’ according to his own colleage, Dr. Leaky
"You are incorrect, but close. What Richard said, was that Lucy's skull was too fragmentary to positively identify which exact species that she belonged to. (afarensis, africanus...) There is quite a difference. "
Here is the exact quote and reference:
""Echoing the criticism made of his father's habilis skulls, he added that Lucy's skull was so incomplete that most of it was 'imagination made of plaster of Paris', thus making it impossible to draw any firm conclusion about what species she belonged to."
Referring to comments made by Richard Leakey (Director of National Museums of Kenya) in The Weekend Australian, 7-8 May 1983, Magazine, p. 3"
I don't see the big difference you refer to. I think your earlier comment that it is 'close" is more accurate. Clearly if there is not enough evidence to confirm the species because it is so fragmentary, then there is no way to possess any certainty as to whether it is really in line with man at all.
Ape men wannabees come in go with ease. Just as the school children are learning about one (“Zinjanthropus,” commonly known as “East Africa Man” or “Nutcracker Man.") is scrapped and a new one is inserted. The only "certainty" in evolution is that it happened. Of course, we stupid creationists are told that this is how science works. Bunk, science is broken! If it were not, evolution as a theory would have been thrown out long ago.
No proof exists that Lucy is anything other than a unique extinct ape. All other "inferences" are simply presuppositions and just so story's, masquarading as true science.
Dan said: A valid religion is also "built upon reasoned understanding bolstered by established facts" (prophecy, resurrection evidence, historical eyewitness testimony)
Grim: I guess we'll just have to disagree on the definitions of "reasoned understanding" and "established facts."
Of course we will Grim. But consider this. The worlds foremost former atheist believer, Dr. Antony Flew agrees with me that the resurrection miracle is the most attested to miracle in history and that believers are "rational" for accepting it. This coming from a hostile witness is telling. In addition, numerous high profile folks have reached the same conclusion in history:
Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:
"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).
The evidence for the resurrection is so solid that even liberal unbelieving scholars have conceded most of the facts concerning it:
"What I was trying to capture in a succinct way by the word established is the fact that the majority of New Testament scholars today, not conservatives, not fundamentalists, concur with the facts of Jesus' honorable burial, his empty tomb, his postmortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples' belief in his resurrection. This is a surprising truth, not widely appreciated by nonspecialists. But none of our respondents disputes my claim to stand solidly with the mainstream of scholarship on these four facts, so that charges that I represent a blinkered orthodoxy more interested in tradition than in truth ring hollow." William Lane Craig
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 7:41 PMI recently saw this movie, Gifted Hands, Starring Cuba Gooding. It is an awesome movie about the worlds leading Neurosurgeon. Here is his bio:
Benjamin S. Carson, M.D., one of the world's foremost pediatric neurosurgeons, is professor and chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins University Medical School.1 Born on September 18, 1951, in Detroit to a single mother in a working class neighborhood, Ben showed promise from a young age.2 A graduate of Yale and the University of Michigan Medical School, he was rated by a Time issue titled "America's Best" as a "super surgeon."3 Dr. Carson was also selected by CNN and Time as one of the nation's top 20 physicians and scientists, and by the Library of Congress as one of 89 "living-legends."4
Dr. Carson is a leading research scientist. A "voracious reader of the medical and scientific literature" from his graduate school days, he has long been very interested in scientific research and has been very active in this area for his entire career,5, 6 with over 120 major scientific publications in peer reviewed journals, 38 books and book chapters, and grant awards of almost a million dollars. His achievements have so far earned him 51 honorary doctorates, including from Yale and Columbia Universities.
A Master Surgeon and Scholar
Ben Carson revolutionized his field in several areas, including hemispherectomies (removal of half of the brain to prevent untreatable severe seizures, such as those caused by Rasmussen's encephalitis). He dramatically increased the safety of the procedure by developing several major surgical innovations, which include better ways of controlling bleeding and infection, as well as an innovative system of incrementally removing specific brain parts as units rather than in whole sections.3
Dr. Carson has also contributed to new techniques used for conjoined twin separation7 and accomplished one of the most complex surgical feats in history as the lead surgeon of a team that separated twins joined at the back of the head in a 22-hour-long operation. Known as the doctor who takes cases that no other doctor will risk, Dr. Carson has had outstanding success in spite of this challenge. For example, he has achieved an amazing 80 to 90 percent success rate for difficult-to-treat trigeminal neuralgia.8
A Creationist
After Dr. Carson reviewed in detail the evidence for design in nature, he concluded, "I just don't have enough faith to believe" that the living world happened by evolutionary processes.9 He added that 150 years after Darwin, there is still no evidence for evolution.
It's just not there. But when you bring that up to the proponents of Darwinism, the best explanation they can come up with is "Well…uh…it's lost!"…I find it requires too much faith for me to believe that explanation given all the fossils we have found without any fossilized evidence of the direct, step-by-step evolutionary progression from simple to complex organisms or from one species to another species. Shrugging and saying, "Well, it was mysteriously lost, and we'll probably never find it," doesn't seem like a particularly satisfying, objective, or scientific response.10
Carson concluded that the "plausibility of evolution is further strained by Darwin's assertion that within fifty to one hundred years of his time, scientists would become geologically sophisticated enough to find the fossil remains of the entire evolutionary tree in an unequivocal step-by-step progression of life from amoeba to man."11
As a neurosurgeon, he stresses the "factors that contribute to the failure to utilize fully the most amazing God-given resource, our brain, such as peer pressure and political correctness, which often limits our willingness, even as objective scientists, to have thoughtful, rational discussions about evolution versus creationism."9 It is even harder for him to accept how so many people who can't explain how evolution can account for all life claim that it is a fact, while at the same time "insisting anyone who wants to consider or discuss creationism as a possibility cannot be a real scientist."10
Taking the Risk
In Dr Carson's latest best-selling book, Take the Risk, he discusses the need to balance the risks and benefits of any activity that one considers undertaking. For example, although Dr. Carson has addressed students and general audiences hundreds of times, he took a big risk to explain his creation views as the keynote speaker at the National Science Teachers convention in Philadelphia. He told the science teachers that "evolution and creationism both require faith. It's just a matter of where you choose to place that faith."
I find it as hard to accept the claims of evolution as it is to think that a hurricane blowing through a junkyard could somehow assemble a fully equipped and flight-ready 747.…Which is why not one of us has ever doubted that a 747, by its very existence, gives convincing evidence of someone's intelligent design.12
He then stressed the fact that the human body and brain are "immeasurably more complex, more versatile, more amazing in a gazillion ways than any airplane man has ever created." In short, only an intelligent creator explains "how such a complex, intelligently designed universe could come into existence."13
Talking to 15,000 science teachers about evolution and creation was a challenge, yet the most formidable audience Dr. Carson has ever faced was the ultra-prestigious Academy of Achievement, which invited him to be part of a panel discussion on "Faith and Science" during its annual International Summit. Dr. Carson writes that the membership was so imposing he had to ask himself whether he really wanted to discuss his spiritual beliefs in front of an organization that included every living former president of the United States, "along with numerous other heads of states and Nobel Peace Prize recipients."
My years of membership in the Academy had provided some wonderful experiences, and I had made a lot of friends whose opinions, goodwill, and respect still matter to me. But did I want to risk all that to share honestly with them my views on faith and science?14
He felt that the stakes were higher this time than in all of his previous lectures because of the possibility of embarrassing himself in front of numerous Nobel scientists.
Still, the same positive potential--the chance that this opportunity could open objective discussion and might help others find the courage to talk about what they truly believe--also seemed like a better best. That wasn't…because I thought anything I said would change the thinking of the Academy's distinguished members, but because we invite as guests to our summit each year three hundred or so of the next generation's best and brightest (Rhodes Scholars, Fullbright Scholars, White House Fellows, and the like).14
The experience proved to be both very challenging and rewarding. One reason was that the noted paleoanthropologist Dr. Donald Johanson was one of the other panelists.
[Johanson] is famous for his claims that the fossilized specimen he discovered in Africa named "Lucy" represented an extinct species from which the human race descended. In the course of our discussion, he made…a condescending remark when he asserted that "true scientists" base everything they do and decide upon facts, unlike those people who choose to depend on God. So when it was my turn to speak, I made the point that "true scientists" often overlook many, many gaps in what they purport to be fact…when in reality some of their own theories require a great deal of faith to accept.15
The paleoanthropologist responded by jumping out of his chair and rudely interrupting Dr. Carson, who calmly responded by noting that he was
"only making a general observation based on my experience. But if the shoe fits …." Laughter rolled through the audience before I went on to say that religion and science both require faith, that the two disciplines don't always have to be mutually exclusive, that people have to choose where to put their faith, and that choice doesn't make you superior to those who believe differently.15
Dr. Johanson's arrogance was apparent in view of the fact that we know "next to nothing about" how the living brain actually works, not to mention that of our putative evolutionary ancestors.8 Dr. Carson concluded that the most affirming responses came from the graduate students who thanked him for his presentation. One scholar from Oxford even told him that, although an atheist, after hearing Dr. Carson's talk he is now seriously rethinking his atheism. Carson concluded, "That seemed reason enough to risk talking about faith."16
Conclusion
Ben Carson, one of the most respected and successful neurosurgeons in the world today, is a creationist who is not afraid of openly voicing his conclusions to august audiences the world over. Called the man with gifted hands for his surgical skill, his example of overcoming poverty to become a leading scholar and scientist has inspired millions.6 His openness about creation may inspire millions as well.
Note: I wish to thank Dr. Ben Carson for reviewing and correcting an earlier draft of this paper.
References
1.Bishop, R. 1999. Beyond Brain Power. Christian Reader. July-August, 19-28.
2.McMurray, E. 1995. Benjamin S. Carson. Notable Twentieth-Century Scientists. New York: Gale Research, 320-321.
3.Gorman, C. 2001. Super Surgeon. Time. 158 (7): 34-35.
4.Asimakoupoulos, G. 2003. Ben Carson: A Doctor in Patients Clothing. Focus on the Family Physician. 15 (4): 4-6.
5.Green-Bishop, J. February 2004. The Healing of a Healer. Dallas Weekly.
6.Carson, B. S. 1990. Gifted Hands. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
7.Ryan, M. If You Can't Teach Me, Don’t Criticize Me. Parade, May 11, 1997, 6-7.
8.Dreifus, C. 2001. Scientific Conversations. New York: W. H. Freeman Book, 200-201.
9.Carson, B. S. 2008. Take the Risk. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 126.
10.Ibid, 130.
11.Ibid, 129.
12.Ibid, 128.
13.Ibid, 128-129.
14.Ibid, 137-138.
15.Ibid, 138-139.
16.Ibid, 140.
* Dr. Bergman is an Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Toledo Medical School in Ohio
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 8:38 PMI don't know where you got you uni degree Dan
Science = evidence + theory = plausible scientific theory
Creation science = Theory + bible = Sudo science
There is no evidence gathering with creation science, you assume the bible is 100% infallible & any contradicting theory must be wrong (aka evolution & old earth). Could it be that the people who wrote the bible had no idea about our origins. I think that's far more plausible then assuming its correct.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 5:32 AMSo, we have a famous gifted man, whose specialty is surgery, particularly dealing with human brains. It's also nice that he got there despite adversity, and that he's willing to take risks. I still wouldn't want him repairing the gas regulator on my furnace. Any one of us can find a field where we must plead ignorance. I myself am unable to repair a damaged computer motherboard. I simply don't know enough about electronics, though others do.
So, although there is some crossover, I would no more accept the opinion of a surgeon scientist as expert when applied to the science of evolution, than I would accept having an evolutionary science major operate on me. Being an expert in some field does not automatically confer expertise in other fields.
So it's nice that this person offers a layman's opinion concerning evolution, but it is no more than that. This attempt at pleading from authority (more words describing his greatness than describing his evolutionary discoveries) falls flat, as his field of study is the wrong one.
If someone famous were to act out part of my life in a movie, would that make my atheistic stance more credible? -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 4:35 PM"So, although there is some crossover, I would no more accept the opinion of a surgeon scientist as expert when applied to the science of evolution, than I would accept having an evolutionary science major operate on me. Being an expert in some field does not automatically confer expertise in other fields."
A very typical tool of manipulation that the creationist cabal employs.
I call it 'legitimacy (or validity) via association.' If you pay attention to it you see it being played out by some of the larger young earth/creationist/intelligent design groups - especially 'Answers in Genesis.' A much smaller but equally nauseating example is Dan himself. The biology teacher with personal beliefs that are absolutely antithetical to what a real, genuine biologist would employ either in practice or in any teaching environment pitching his personal, superstition informed perspective as fact. Buttressing his personal perspective in part on a reliance upon a degree in the very subject with which he holds such disdain and contempt. The hypocrisy - the contradiction - is deliciously absurd.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 7:51 PM"So, we have a famous gifted man, whose specialty is surgery, particularly dealing with human brains. It's also nice that he got there despite adversity, and that he's willing to take risks. I still wouldn't want him repairing the gas regulator on my furnace. Any one of us can find a field where we must plead ignorance. I myself am unable to repair a damaged computer motherboard. I simply don't know enough about electronics, though others do."
What we have is a scientist who understands the complexity of the human brain like no other vs a scientist who is acustomes to looking at dry bones in the earth and speculating about them. We have a man who has published numerous scientific articles in peer reviewed scientific journals and is a true scientific research scientist who is more than capable of examinging the evidence in both his own field and that in others and drawing reasonable conclusions. And his conclusion is that science is no less a faith than is religious faith and that human descent is an unfounded belief about the past. Proof that evolution is wrong. Not at all. Interesting? Very much so.
"So, although there is some crossover, I would no more accept the opinion of a surgeon scientist as expert when applied to the science of evolution, than I would accept having an evolutionary science major operate on me. Being an expert in some field does not automatically confer expertise in other fields."
there is no science of evolution. Evolution is a world view, not science. And that is one of the points to be made here.
"So it's nice that this person offers a layman's opinion concerning evolution, but it is no more than that. This attempt at pleading from authority (more words describing his greatness than describing his evolutionary discoveries) falls flat, as his field of study is the wrong one."
A scientist is never a layman in things pertaining to science. So Dr. Carsen is more than competent to evaluate the evidence for or against evolution. He has, and found it lacking, just as I have.
"If someone famous were to act out part of my life in a movie, would that make my atheistic stance more credible?"
No, but I have no idea what your point was here either. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 1:17 PMDan: We have a man who has published numerous scientific articles in peer reviewed scientific journals and is a true scientific research scientist who is more than capable of examinging the evidence in both his own field and that in others and drawing reasonable conclusions.
grim: Reasonable conclusions perhaps, but not expert conclusions. If expertise in one fields grants equivalent degrees of expertise in all scientific fields, why do we not teach just this one field, since it would cover everything? Saying something does not make it so. This doctor is an expert on brains, and indeed his input on this subject should be examined. But his field of expertise does not encompass the whole of the field of evolution, just one small part of it.
Dan: A scientist is never a layman in things pertaining to science. So Dr. Carsen is more than competent to evaluate the evidence for or against evolution.
grim: I would suspect that, concerning much of science, this doctor has only a layman's grasp. Quantum mechanics, astrophysics, I would even suspect less lofty science like bridge and skyscraper engineering. There is no shame in not being an expert in all fields. Having even a layman's grasp in multiple fields is respectable. I just don't see how being a scientist confers expertise all around in any field of science. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:50 AMthat is just it Grim, no ones expertise encompasses the whole field of evolutionary "science". No such field even exists! I have talked to numerous scientists at major universities and precious few of them feel competent to defend evolution. Refuting evolution is like sword fighting with a fantom. The point was simple, Dr. Carsen is a first rate scientist at the top of his field. He understands better than anyone the most complex piece of matter in the universe and he laughs at the notion that it was self created, as any reasonable person would. On the other side you have a man who is an expert in dead dry bones. You can read his own writings where he admits that bias and world view play a huge roll in his conclusions and you consider him an "expert" on evolution. That is fine by me Grim, as long as you can live your delusions comfortably and spread the lie that you are rational while theists are "faith heads", I see no reason to disturb your slumber any further.
grim: I would suspect that, concerning much of science, this doctor has only a layman's grasp
You and I have laymans grasp. Carsen is no layman. But if it takes expertise in multiple fields of learning to properly understand and defend the notion of transmutation then it stikes me as odd that I receive so much flak from layman on this tribe for "not seeing the obvious". -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:06 PM>>"He understands better than anyone the most complex piece of matter in the universe and he laughs at the notion that it was self created, as any reasonable person would."<<
As far as I understand the theory, would not God be the most complex thing in the universe, a lot more so than a human brain, and yet you seem to have no problem that this came about without the intervention of some other force, entity, or power. There seems to be a massive inconsistency in your thought processes here.
>>"You and I have laymans grasp. Carsen is no layman."<<
Carsen is a doctor and doctors are not really scientists at all, Dan, although doctors can be scientists, most are simply technicians. Brain surgery is not science and the truth of the matter is that we really don't understand how the brain works, so jumping to the conclusion it must have resulted from supernatural intervention seems a bit premature. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 12:02 PM"As far as I understand the theory, would not God be the most complex thing in the universe, a lot more so than a human brain, and yet you seem to have no problem that this came about without the intervention of some other force, entity, or power. There seems to be a massive inconsistency in your thought processes here."
Seems is the operative word. But tell me Rene, just how "complex" can a non physical entity be? And furthermore, the alternative is irrational as there must have been a beginning.
>>"You and I have laymans grasp. Carsen is no layman."<<
Rene: Carsen is a doctor and doctors are not really scientists at all, Dan
This only demonstrates your ignorance on the matter of what a scientist is Rene. Go back and read Carsens bio, his inventions and peer reviewed published research and then explain again why he cannot be a scientist, but somehow you get to be.
"although doctors can be scientists, most are simply technicians."
refer to above.
"Brain surgery is not science and the truth of the matter is that we really don't understand how the brain works, so jumping to the conclusion it must have resulted from supernatural intervention seems a bit premature."
Jumping to the conclusion that the most complex incomprehensible piece of matter can be explained by naturalism boggles a healthy mind Rene. Believing that the incredible design contained therein must be the product of an intelligent source is the default position. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 10:40 PM>>"just how "complex" can a non physical entity be? And furthermore, the alternative is irrational as there must have been a beginning."<<
Actually, Dan since we have no experience of non-physical entities and no reason to suppose such entities even exist, whatever you might imagine would be the possible extent of its complexity. The various speculations I have heard about such entities seem to describe them as quite complex, containing all knowledge, being all-powerful etc. Since no one has actually demonstrated in any way that something non-physical can exist in any real way, it is basically irrational give any credence to such speculations.
You say it is irrational to to suppose the universe has no beginning and yet you proposed that your imagined god has no beginning; how is this different in any way? The thing that is truly irrational is to suppose that by magic something could come from nothing.
>>"Jumping to the conclusion that the most complex incomprehensible piece of matter can be explained by naturalism boggles a healthy mind Rene."<<
Again, Dan, if a simple human mind can have no explanation; how do you propose to explain the mind of God which certainly must be a far more complex and incomprehensible thing. To simply say, its supernatural, offers no real insight or explanation of the phenomenon.
The fact that we do not fully understand how something works or came to be, is hardly reason to begin assigning supernatural causes. We don't really understand how hurricanes work or come to be; do you believe they have a supernatural cause?
Frankly, I really don't understand why anyone feels the need to view the universe as somehow split between natural and supernatural forces. Whatever forces are acting within the universe that we inhabit ought to be viewed in the same way. What you call natural forces, are simply the forces we currently understand to some degree. Supernatural forces are simply forces we have no understanding how they might work. If such forces actually exist and are required to explain some aspects of our universe, this still does not definitively indicate there must be gods or god-like entities; that people like to use the idea of gods to explain certain things that they do not understand is a simple result of human psychology and really says nothing at all about the true nature of the universe we inhabit. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Tue, November 3, 2009 - 9:37 AM>>"just how "complex" can a non physical entity be? And furthermore, the alternative is irrational as there must have been a beginning."<<
Rene: The various speculations I have heard about such entities seem to describe them as quite complex, containing all knowledge, being all-powerful etc.
Your complex argument is useless. The mind is very "complex" by your definition yet we know next to nothing about it either, except that it is not equivalent to the brain. Numerous out of body experiences prove this conclusively.
"You say it is irrational to to suppose the universe has no beginning and yet you proposed that your imagined god has no beginning; how is this different in any way? The thing that is truly irrational is to suppose that by magic something could come from nothing."
I am not a proponent of Magic, nor has Christianity ever offered "Magic" as a basis for anything. This is simply a smear tactic. It is not irrational to propose that everything which has a beginning has a cause. This is a premise which can be defended and is therefore rational Rene. You know this is true, which is why you continually attempt to divert our conversation away from it. You are free to design your own logical argument for "everything which has a beginning has no cause" and see where you end up. But I don't think you want to go there.
>>"Jumping to the conclusion that the most complex incomprehensible piece of matter can be explained by naturalism boggles a healthy mind Rene."<<
Rene: Again, Dan, if a simple human mind can have no explanation; how do you propose to explain the mind of God which certainly must be a far more complex and incomprehensible thing. To simply say, its supernatural, offers no real insight or explanation of the phenomenon.
Why do you feel it is necessary to understand something to accept the evidence of its existence? The evidence for Gods existance is incontrovertible, yet the bible states that his ways are "unscrutable". I believe you exist, but you are still impossible to figure out!
Rene: The fact that we do not fully understand how something works or came to be, is hardly reason to begin assigning supernatural causes. We don't really understand how hurricanes work or come to be; do you believe they have a supernatural cause?
You seem to be reversing your argument here. Now it is possible for things to exist which we cannot fully explain! So it is ok for you to accept the rational evidence for the existance of God and admit you don't understand Him. Pagan views of God ascribe supernatural causes to all natural phenomenon. Christianity teaches that while God sometimes intervenes in that natural realm, all phenomenon do not require a supernatural explanation. In fact, the norm would be that they do not. That there is a natural explanation for phenomena we see around us doesn't in any way discount the fact that the existance of the material world cannot be adequately explained by natural means. This seems to be your point of confusion. I can explain the workings of a computer (in laymans terms), but this doesn't mean I can explain the origin of a computer by natural mechanisms. There is no rational explanation for the origin of the universe or the origin of life.
Rene: Frankly, I really don't understand why anyone feels the need to view the universe as somehow split between natural and supernatural forces. Whatever forces are acting within the universe that we inhabit ought to be viewed in the same way. What you call natural forces, are simply the forces we currently understand to some degree. Supernatural forces are simply forces we have no understanding how they might work.
again, I refer you to the computer analogy above. Supernatural forces are rationally arrived at.
"If such forces actually exist and are required to explain some aspects of our universe, this still does not definitively indicate there must be gods or god-like entities; that people like to use the idea of gods to explain certain things that they do not understand is a simple result of human psychology and really says nothing at all about the true nature of the universe we inhabit."
The existance of forces sufficient to bring about an entire universe are by definition "God". No way around that. I think that the existance of life and particularly human life is sufficient proof that He is a personal God as well. It is in the Bible that I now go to learn more of his nature and plan for my life. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, November 4, 2009 - 3:58 PM>>"You are free to design your own logical argument for "everything which has a beginning has no cause""<<
I have already demonstrated on a number of occasions that this argument that you present has no merit and says nothing about the nature of any "first cause" if your argument actually proved there should be one . There is no compelling reason to assume a "first cause" must have god-like properties in any way.
>>"Why do you feel it is necessary to understand something to accept the evidence of its existence?"<<
I have never said anything like this. What I have pointed out is that there is no valid evidence for any god or god-like entities. This is especially true when one adds to attributes that you assign to the god that you imagine.
>>"You seem to be reversing your argument here. Now it is possible for things to exist which we cannot fully explain!"<<
Again, I never said anything like this. You seem to be making stuff up or totally misunderstanding what I have said.
Whether I can understand something or not has nothing to do with whether there is valid evidence for some claim. We don't understand "dark energy" or "dark matter" but there are valid scientific reasons to consider that they might exist. I don't think however, that there is any valid evidence for their existence, so I do not believe that they exist, only that there is some chance that they might. In the case of gods, there is no valid evidence for their existence, nor any valid reason to even propose that they might exist; they are purely speculative concepts which really cannot be taken any more seriously than the fairy godmother.
>>"There is no rational explanation for the origin of the universe or the origin of life."<<
The concepts used by scientists to consider these questions are inherently rational. To invoke totally unknown supernatural forces and powers is to basically give up on addressing the questions,as "God did It" is really not an answer, but more like the avoidance of the questions; I understand the impulse and it is clear that rationality has nothing to do with it.
>>"I think that the existance of life and particularly human life is sufficient proof that He is a personal God as well."<<
This is equivalent to saying the existence of water, rain, and snow is "proof" there must be a water spirit. You apparently have no concept of what "proof" might actually consist of. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, November 22, 2009 - 2:38 PM>>"You are free to design your own logical argument for "everything which has a beginning has no cause""<<
Rene: I have already demonstrated on a number of occasions that this argument that you present has no merit and says nothing about the nature of any "first cause" if your argument actually proved there should be one . There is no compelling reason to assume a "first cause" must have god-like properties in any way.
You have not demonstrated anything of the kind. And to state that there is no compelling reason to assume a "first cause" must have god-like properties boggles the mind. And first cause has at least one attribute of God!
>>"Why do you feel it is necessary to understand something to accept the evidence of its existence?"<<
Rene: I have never said anything like this.
actually, you have, and quite a few times.
Rene: What I have pointed out is that there is no valid evidence for any god or god-like entities. This is especially true when one adds to attributes that you assign to the god that you imagine.
You are badly confused. The logical proof offered for the existance of a Creator does not argue for all of the biblical characteristics of God. Suffice that those characteristics implied by a first cause of complimentary to the biblical god and no other. There are numerous other lines of evidence for the biblical God as well which have been the subject of threads elsewhere.
>>"You seem to be reversing your argument here. Now it is possible for things to exist which we cannot fully explain!"<<
Rene:Again, I never said anything like this. You seem to be making stuff up or totally misunderstanding what I have said.
Whether I can understand something or not has nothing to do with whether there is valid evidence for some claim. We don't understand "dark energy" or "dark matter" but there are valid scientific reasons to consider that they might exist. I don't think however, that there is any valid evidence for their existence, so I do not believe that they exist, only that there is some chance that they might. In the case of gods, there is no valid evidence for their existence, nor any valid reason to even propose that they might exist; they are purely speculative concepts which really cannot be taken any more seriously than the fairy godmother."
Your views here are entirely personal, subjective and counterintuitive. Furthermore, they stand in stark contrast to the evidence which easily refutes them. So I see no reason to give them any credence whatsoever.
>>"There is no rational explanation for the origin of the universe or the origin of life."<<
Rene:The concepts used by scientists to consider these questions are inherently rational. To invoke totally unknown supernatural forces and powers is to basically give up on addressing the questions,as "God did It" is really not an answer, but more like the avoidance of the questions; I understand the impulse and it is clear that rationality has nothing to do with it.
Actually, rational thinking has everything to do with it, as no basis for rationality can exist in the absence of God!
>>"I think that the existance of life and particularly human life is sufficient proof that He is a personal God as well."<<
"This is equivalent to saying the existence of water, rain, and snow is "proof" there must be a water spirit. You apparently have no concept of what "proof" might actually consist of."
I am not offering "proof" Rene, at least not in the scientific sense. I have offered logical proof for the existence of God, and it is irrefutable. Your analogy does not follow. The origin of living things must be living. This is logical and sound and satisfies the principle of cause and effect as well as the law of biogenesis. Now if nothing existed in the universe, no rain, no snow, no energy, no matter, nothing at all, why then you would likely have a point, but you would be powerless to make it. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, November 22, 2009 - 10:46 PMPffffftttt.
Once again I'd like to thank you Dan for yet another comedic episode of Why You Are So Wrong for Not Believing in my God/Unicorn/Fairy Tale/Superstitious Story.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 11:07 PM>>"Go back and read Carsens bio, his inventions and peer reviewed published research and then explain again why he cannot be a scientist"<<
Below seems to be the best summary in your article about Carson's "scientific" achievements:
>>"Ben Carson revolutionized his field in several areas, including hemispherectomies (removal of half of the brain to prevent untreatable severe seizures, such as those caused by Rasmussen's encephalitis). He dramatically increased the safety of the procedure by developing several major surgical innovations, which include better ways of controlling bleeding and infection, as well as an innovative system of incrementally removing specific brain parts as units rather than in whole sections.3
Dr. Carson has also contributed to new techniques used for conjoined twin separation7 and accomplished one of the most complex surgical feats in history as the lead surgeon of a team that separated twins joined at the back of the head in a 22-hour-long operation. Known as the doctor who takes cases that no other doctor will risk, Dr. Carson has had outstanding success in spite of this challenge. For example, he has achieved an amazing 80 to 90 percent success rate for difficult-to-treat trigeminal neuralgia.8"<<
Do you really view removing half of someone's brain, not even really understanding what you are doing or why, except that it seems to help with certain conditions as science? The rest of what is described is even more clearly simply technician work. If someone learned to be the most efficient butcher of a cow, would you consider him a great scientist or a great technician. Carson's "achievements appear to be no greater than the butcher's. This is no indication that he has advanced human knowledge, or given us any useful insights into how the universe works; this is what scientists do. He has learned to efficiently cut up brains while giving us no greater understanding of the brains he works on.
The article then goes on to show that Dr. Carson's has no knowledge of the paleontological record and seems to accept that same worn out Creationist rhetoric that you employ. Likewise he demonsrtates no knowledge of how evolution works through natural selection working on natural variation and employs the creationist fallacy that evolution is driven somehow by random chance when in fact the exact opposite is true. This is not a scientist at all, but rather a skilled technician who is essentially a fool.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Tue, November 3, 2009 - 9:01 AM"Do you really view removing half of someone's brain....... Carson's "achievements appear to be no greater than the butcher's.
speaking of reaching new lows Rene, now you disparage Dr. Carson, the worlds foremost brain surgeon, but calling him a butcher. You should hang your head in shame, but no doubt you are proud of your silly attacks.
"The article then goes on to show that Dr. Carson's has no knowledge of the paleontological record"
translate, he rejects unsupported evolutionary presuppositions espoused by scientists who were not there and like Carsen, don't know everything.
"and seems to accept that same worn out Creationist rhetoric that you employ."
Translation (while wringing hands): He is a believer in the Bible, specifically a six day creation as out lined by Genesis. He recognizes that faith is present in both the naturalist and the biblicist, but he finds the latter much more intellectually satisfying. I am happy to be lumped with him, thanks!
"Likewise he demonsrtates no knowledge of how evolution works through natural selection working on natural variation and employs the creationist fallacy that evolution is driven somehow by random chance when in fact the exact opposite is true."
Actually Rene, he is most likely more well read than you are on the subject and may have come across the following quotations by evolutionists over the years:
“If most evolutionary changes occur during speciation events and if speciation events are largely random, natural selection, long viewed as a process guiding evolutionary change, cannot play a significant role in determining the overall course of evolution.” [Steven M. Stanley (evolutionist), Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, 72:640-660, (1975), p.648.]
“Adaptation leads to natural selection, natural selection does not necessarily lead to greater adaptation ... Natural Selection operates essentially to enable the organisms to maintain their state of adaptation rather than improve it ... Natural selection over the long run does not seem to improve a species’ chances of survival, but simply enables it to ‘track,’ or keep up with, the constantly changing environment” [Richard C. Lewontin (evolutionist); "Adaptation." Scientific American (and Scientific American Book, Evolution), Sept. 1978]
“Mutations, in time, occur incoherently. They are not complementary to one another, nor are they cumulative in successive generations toward a given direction. They modify what pre-exists, but they do so in disorder.” [Pierre-Paul Grassé (evolutionist), Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York (1977), pp. 97, 98.]
“In the meantime, the educated public continues to believe that Darwin has provided all the relevant answers by the magic formula of random mutation plus natural selection—quite unaware of the fact that random mutations turned out to be irrelevant and natural selection a tautology.” [Arthur Koestler (evolutionist), Janus: A Summing Up, Random House, New York, 1978, pp. 184-185.]
“As a generative principle, providing the raw material for natural selection, random mutation is inadequate both in scope and theoretical grounding.” [Jeffrey S. Wicken (evolutionist), “The generation of complexity in evolution: a thermodynamic and information-theoretical discussion.” Journal of Theoretical Biology, vol. 77, April 1979, pp. 351-352.]
Rene: This is not a scientist at all, but rather a skilled technician who is essentially a fool.
I am surprised by these comments Rene. You are usually more balanced and restrained in your rhetoric than this. But this is what evolution dogma drives an otherwise intelligent person to do. You must discount all scientists as "fools" unless they are in agreement with you in your absurd religious views of the past. I don't believe that evolutionists are fools Rene, nor do I discount the fact that they are scientists. To be an atheist is to be a fool, for sure, but being wrong on a belief which is highly popular is excusable. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, November 4, 2009 - 3:29 PMYour quote mining is silly, Dan... a lot of apparent foolishness taken out of context. Natural selection is not a random process. You could compare it to whittling a piece of wood to fit a round hole. It acts on natural variation that is present due to a number of factors, some of which are random events. The fact that some random changes are selected via evolutionary processes does not mean that evolution is a random process. A simple way to evaluate this is to consider whether the biosphere we now see would be significantly different if certain random events that occurred during the long evolution of life did not occur. An understanding of how evolution actually works tells us that it would not be significantly different. If you could demonstrate that a completely different biosphere might evolve in the exact same conditions based on a few random events, then you could claim evolution is a "random" process. It is quite clear however, that this is not the case.
>>"you disparage Dr. Carson, the worlds foremost brain surgeon, but calling him a butcher."<<
I did not exactly call the good doctor a butcher. I simply pointed out that his work and really the work of most surgeons simply amounts to knowing how to slice flesh with a knife, just like a butcher. It is a useful and important skill, but the work is not science. Surgeons know how to accomplish certain difficult tasks with their hands, but they do not usually help us gain any actual knowledge about how our bodies work. There are lots of medical people that do actual scientific research, but they are usually not surgeons. From the information in your article, it did not appear Carson was doing any actual scientific research.
>>"You must discount all scientists as "fools" unless they are in agreement with you"<<
Anyone who is totally ignorant of or chooses to ignore the vast amount of information we have gathered from the geologic record and holds YEC views like yours is most definitely a fool. There are very few things that we can be absolutely certain about in this world, Dan, but one of them is that the earth is far more than 6000 years old. To believe this is more foolish that believing the world is flat or that the earth is the center of the universe; two more foolish beliefs rooted in your bible. I am sure you would consider anyone who thinks the earth is flat is either ignorant or a fool, Dan. For anyone with knowledge of the geologic record, the same is true about your foolish beliefs about the history of the earth. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, November 22, 2009 - 2:19 PM"Your quote mining is silly, Dan... a lot of apparent foolishness taken out of context."
the context and the quotes were entirely relevent to our discussion Rene.
"Natural selection is not a random process."
You are evading the issue. Mutations are random and natural selection has no omniscience or ability to guide simple organisms to greater complexity. What it can to is take complex organisms and make them less complex over time. This is speciation. These scientists actually refute the simplistic notions which you and others have offered here about how evolution works. The truth is, no one knows how evolution works, or if it works at all. What we do know is that random mutations and natural selection in no way account for the evolution of the biosphere from hypothetical single celled organism.
"The fact that some random changes are selected via evolutionary processes does not mean that evolution is a random process.
A simple way to evaluate this is to consider whether the biosphere we now see would be significantly different if certain random events that occurred during the long evolution of life did not occur."
To "consider whether the biosphere we now see" could be different under different conditions has nothing to do with science Rene as this is a mental game of yours with no basis in objective science and because you have never been able to grasp the difference between speciation and evolution.
"An understanding of how evolution actually works tells us that it would not be significantly different."
do you hear these things audibly Rene or are is someone telling you these things in your mind?
"If you could demonstrate that a completely different biosphere might evolve in the exact same conditions based on a few random events, then you could claim evolution is a "random" process. It is quite clear however, that this is not the case."
I cannot demonstate the evolution of the biosphere Rene, nor can you. I don't believe it happened, so I feel no need to demonstrate anything.
>>"you disparage Dr. Carson, the worlds foremost brain surgeon, but calling him a butcher."<<
"I did not exactly call the good doctor a butcher."
This was your sarcastic implication Rene.
" I simply pointed out that his work and really the work of most surgeons simply amounts to knowing how to slice flesh with a knife, just like a butcher."
You continue to make yourself look more foolish Rene.
"It is a useful and important skill, but the work is not science."
You continue to define and redefine science in ways which would eliminate all but a few groups as "scientists". Suffice that Dr. Carsen has been recognized as a research scientist, inventor, world renouned neurosurgeon. His bio speaks for itself.
"You must discount all scientists as "fools" unless they are in agreement with you"<<
"Anyone who is totally ignorant of or chooses to ignore the vast amount of information we have gathered from the geologic record and holds YEC views like yours is most definitely a fool. There are very few things that we can be absolutely certain about in this world, Dan, but one of them is that the earth is far more than 6000 years old."
Actually Rene, starting from your world view there is nothing in this world we can be absolutely certain about, including the age of the earth. I agree however that the belief that the world is very young is widely perceived as foolish, akin to believing in a flat earth. However, there is nothing in geology, in recorded history, or in science in general which argues convincingly for an old earth or universe, and much to argue for a "young earth" less than 10,000 years old (to me, this is very old).
"To believe this is more foolish that believing the world is flat or that the earth is the center of the universe; two more foolish beliefs rooted in your bible."
neither are rooted in the bible.
"I am sure you would consider anyone who thinks the earth is flat is either ignorant or a fool, Dan. For anyone with knowledge of the geologic record, the same is true about your foolish beliefs about the history of the earth."
actually, a large number of intelligent people who are well familiar with the geologic record dispute your version of the geologic record Rene. One such scientist who received his Phd. under the late Stephen Jaye Gould is teaching at a christian university near my home. His name is Dr. Kurt Wise.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 10:12 AM>>"Ben Carson, one of the most respected and successful neurosurgeons in the world today, is a creationist who is not afraid of openly voicing his conclusions to august audiences the world over."<<
No doubt, there are lots of doctors who are creationists... I cannot seem to even imagine why anyone should care about this. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 7:53 PMI think it is interesting and true that many are likely creationists and very few are atheists. Personally, I would not go to a doctor who espoused evolution as I would not trust him. I once went to a doctor who told me my knee problem was due to the "fact" that man was not meant to walk upright! Obviously this evolutionist nutter did not get my business. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 9:19 PM>>"I would not go to a doctor who espoused evolution"<<
I hate to break the news to you, Dan, but nearly anyone who knows anything about biology which would obviously include most doctors, accept the theory of evolution. Evolutionary thought is is the life blood of medicine and biology. The level of your delusion is truly amazing.... -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 10:12 AMactually, I have no delusions Rene buddy. And all of my doctors a YEC'ers. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 4:45 AMAny Religion is a delusion.
I'm still waiting for you to reply to me in the other thread, I'm starting to assume that i have defeated you. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:39 AMyes yes Aaron, you have defeated me:-) I cannot think of anything you have written which I have not answered on this forum over the past several years somewhere. I couldn't care less whether you feel you have won an argument or not. It is all futile, chasing after the wind.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:12 PM>>"And all of my doctors a YEC'ers"<<
So you prefer doctors who have no real understanding of biology and choose to ignore nearly everything science has learned in order to cling to a set on non-biblical, far-fetched, completely discredited models of earth history. Good luck with that, Dan.... -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 12:05 PMI prefer doctors who reject superstitious nonsense about my ancestors being knuckle walkers and therefore arrive at rational conclusions about my body. Had doctors rejected evolution, millions of lives could have been saved or bettered as the vesigial organ lie has led to countless children having their appendix, tonsils and adenoids removed when it was not medically necessary. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:56 PMAs Dan slowly slips his foot into Mary Baker Eddy's pool of rancid medical advice.
tinyurl.com/kr3um -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:56 PMPlease Dan, continue. -
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 10:30 AMcontinue making you look stupid? No need, you are doing fine all by yourself.
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Re: Foremost Brain Surgeon and Creationist
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 10:30 AMhuh? I am not a member of the "Christian Science" cult.
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