Advertisement
For those of you that do folkloric or beladi numbers in your show, do you use the Egyptian style finger cymbals or the Turkish / Vintage Orientale ones? Do any of you know how to make them "talk" by varying the pitch tone? I'm doing research for our up-coming finger cymbal CDs and was wondering how many Egyptian style dancers actually use Egyptian sagat.
This is what they look like: www.serpentine.org/zills.html
This is what they look like: www.serpentine.org/zills.html
posted by:
|
Washington, D.C.
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:22 AMI do use the "ghawazee" cymbals, with one hole, but only for persona (folkloric) dancing as otherwise I don't like them; so I wouldn't use them in a nightclub show, I'd go for the easier double-slot cymbals. In the one-holers I have really wide elastic in them to help with control, but otherwise don't vary the sounds except for muting occasionally.
Your finger cymbal cd sounds interesting! good luck with your project - -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 10:27 AMWhat I've discovered is that with the "clam-shell" method of playing them, the 1-hole cymbals are VERY easy to control and that you WANT the looser thin elastic to get them to "talk." I can play Old McDonald on them! We were thinking about putting YOUR excellent solo on Artemis' CD (Zill Speak) to show what a master can do, but there's a huge echo in the sound. I have to do a lot of sweetening, so I don't know if the quality will be OK. I'll keep you posted. -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 12:30 PMI prefer the one hole zills. Hint: thinner elastic and a button or bead slightly larger than the hole really facilitates the variety of sound that can be produced. 'Old McDonald" LOL...I love it! I thought I was the only one "campy" enough to play around like that. I will give it a try and add it to my 'play list' under 'Three Blind Mice' (sounds cute on dumbek, too) . Try Row, Row Row Your Boat, talk about level changes...whew! -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 12:58 PMNo, don't use buttons! I was taught how to string them. A knot on each end of the elastic, cut to fit, and thread through the hole with a bobby pin. Works like a charm. Oh, some great tunes to play! I'm going to try tonight. Thanks. -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 2:55 PMoh, man- now I have to go buy ANOTHER instrument to try out. Why is this so addicting? I'd love to hear more about single hole zill technique...
any good sources for traditional one holers? -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 3:33 PMI hadn't found any specific to the clam-shell method, so I am doing a CD on it. Artemis is doing the traditional Turkish / AmCab method but with a great new twist - a learning device to help ANYONE remember the patterns. Hence the 2 titles on the web page above. But if you come accross someone who does teach it I would love to know.
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:09 PMI originally did it that way, too. Using a tiny flat button allows me to use a slightly wider elastic which is more comfortable for me, but still allows a wide range of variation and manipulation. I like my zills to fit very tightly (cyanotic fingertips) ;-)
I have found that using catchy little tunes for both zill and dumbek are great drills for learning to control accents/variations. When I first started working on left (ka) hand accents, I practiced the accents to Bo Diddly LOL. I am sure the guys from the ME Percussion and Dumbek Fever Tribes would just laugh and shake their heads at that....very undignified -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 8:52 AMI never tried the button method. Just the knotting. One holers aren't as stable as the 2 hole but I love the sound especially when dancing with a live band. I can make a clapping sound by covering the zill with some fingers, hit the edge for a tak tak sound, straight on for a ringing sound...Mmm, I haven't played them in a while. I need to dig them up and try Old MacDonald.
-
-
-
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Tue, April 28, 2009 - 7:04 AMDear Anthea and Yasmin,
I also use a one hole set of cymbals for dancing Ghawazi. My pair is an old set of Zildjians that I have had since 1975. They seem to be a bit thicker and made of a slightly different kind of metal than the newer ones. They can sound just like what I hear on A'isha Ali's music. Like Anthea, I wrestle a widish elastic through the holes. I hold it in place with little gold safety pins. I also mark which finger or thumb they go on and my cymbals eventually tone themselves. I have this great clunky pair I bought in Egypt that I just love, too, but they just do not quite capture that Ghawazi sound the way the old Zildjians do.
Does anyone have any cymbals that they recommend for their students who are just learning to play? I have just been sending mine down to the music store,but there might be some better alternatives strictly for dancers that are reasonably priced. I don't like to encourage beginners to spend a fortune on sagat as they might just end up in a drawer someplace if they do not continue with dance.
Regards,
A'isha -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Tue, April 28, 2009 - 7:17 AMhi A'isha, nice to see you on tribe!
I usually get bulk orders for my beginning cymbal players from Turquoise, good student stock & even good for performing.
I am going to sell my Zildjian's, I never did like them enough to use them, they hurt my ears, like a lot! Anyone interested? contact me offlist - anthea@kawakib.com -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Wed, April 29, 2009 - 7:01 AMDear Anthea,
Thanks for the info on turquoise. I will steer my students that direction. I think if they intend to stay with the dance, they do need to invest in a set of decent cymbals!
I found that with the Zildjians, its possible to get all kinds of tones and sounds, depending on how you hold them. They do tend to be quite ringy in some instances. While I do not like them for every instance of cymbal playing, they are great for getting just the right flattish sound for Ghawazi. Something about the music tempos and the weight of the cymbals and the technique of balancing them with the ring finger just got THE sound!
Regards,
A'isha -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Fri, May 1, 2009 - 10:32 PMThe sagat that I have imported from Egypt are ideal for ghawazee. The design is traditional, the weight and kind of brass authentic. But they don't ring like Zildjians. They clack more, like metal castanets. The reverberation time is much shorter. I agree with Anthea that it is not right to ask students to spend a great deal of money on instruments they may not use after a month or two. But for those dancers who love them and want to learn the traditional Egyptian clam-shell method of playing them, the ones I am importing are the best. -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 6:40 AMDear Yasmin,
There is a way to hold Zildjians that they also do not ring, and it is a pretty easy technique, much like the clam shell hold you discuss and then there is no reverb in tone. You can also stop ringing in most sagat merely by using ypur ring finger as a balance on the top of the cymbal; a technique I learned from my frist teacher!
Regards,
A'isha -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 12:07 PMA;'isha,
I own a bunch of Saroyans, one holed Zildjians and two different kinds of single hole Egyptian sagat (2 pairs from Yasmin and 2 pairs from the Henkish family last summer. I always want to have gig bag and practice bag sagat). Even with the finger dampening method the Egyptian ones have quite different sound capabilities from the Zildjians. In the "ring" sound- even if you are dampening one with your finger, the thumb one is still free to reverberate. The "clamshell method" also produces a different variety of sounds as the shape of the "bell" part are different. The Zildjians are made by a cymbal company and are beautiful instruments; just different. -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 7:52 PMso my question still stands.. where can I find a good pair of single hole sagat? I live in Alaska & have little opportunity to travel, so I am having a hard time tracking them down myself. But I am absolute instrument addict & you all have me itching to try these!
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 7:54 PMDear Yasmin,
I only know that even any of the sets I bought in Egypt do not reproduce that Ghawazi sound in the way that I do when I play my Zildjians. I do not get a ring at all. Of course, my Zildjians are, like 35 years old, and they are thicker than the newer ones, and seem to be made of a different metal combination than the newer ones.
Regards,
A;isha -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 8:06 PMGosh, I am not sure how to edit posts here, if that is possible, so I guess I will have to write another. I should have addressed the last post to Samira and not Yasmin. I apologize. ( Old age can certainly lead to confusion... now... where was i??? Oh yeah!! Lara, you could write to various companies, like Saroyan and Zildjian and see what they specifically have to say about their cymbals. It also depends on what sound you personally are looking for. I do not care much for super ringy cymbals, but at least one of my dance company members likes a more bell sound than I do. Personally, I like clunky finger cymbals. I don't sue them for belly dance, though I have done so often enough when I was a younger dancer. For many years now, I have looked for something more psychologically folkish in a cymbal.
Regards,
A'isha -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Sat, May 2, 2009 - 10:49 PMnothing really compares to actually hearing them, I suppose *sigh*
I have owned a good 2/3 of saroyans catalog at various points, and the turquoise, but I really couldn't stand the tone of the turquoise or the 'student' nefertiti by saroyan- I really like the heavier cymbals, partly because they bounce better and are easier to get a good solid ring. but I am curious & will try anything once :) I have been steering clear of single holes to this point because of negative opinions of former teachers, but you all make it sound like a fun challenge!
To keep costs down for students (since I prefer them to start with the heavier cymbals as well, which can get pricey!) I have enough on hand that I loan them out- free if it's just in class (EVERYONE forgets them at SOME point) and $5 per 6 week session to take them home. the sets are numbered so I can keep track of who has what pair, & I have only once had a pair not come back when it should. I also have cymbals on hand to purchase- they are actually cheaper to buy in bulk from Dahlal than ordering directly from Saroyan last time I checked. There are a couple students who have simply kept the zills once they have paid as much as they would have if they had purchased them flat out, but most purchase their own during their second session. I make enough from the rentals & sales to replace the one pair that disappeared and to, umm sample new styles periodically... (feeding the addiction, you could say.) -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Mon, May 4, 2009 - 4:38 PMZildjians should run about $20 new from the company. Last time I checked was about 4 years ago. www.zildjian.com. I believe they have both types, single hole and 2 slit styles. -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Mon, May 4, 2009 - 10:41 PMYes, they have 2-hole zills too - I bought a pair of those 2 years ago.... I have several types of zills, but I like the Zildjians the most.... Very pure sound! -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Mon, May 4, 2009 - 10:43 PMAah... and if you order them, you have to ask specifically for 2 pairs of zills, otherwise you receive only one pair (at least if you buy them from Belgium...)
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 8:36 AMshocking, I paid $40 for mine last century! -
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 11:03 AMAnthea, I think it is 20$ for 1 pair and 40$ for 2 pairs (= 4 zills); I paid 50€ in Belgium for 4 zills which is about 65 dollar...... expansive! But they are worth it!
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Thu, May 7, 2009 - 11:20 AMDear Anthea,
That's what I was going to say because I paid $25 for mine in 1974!! I know at one time they were up to $60 a set.
Regards,
A;isha
-
-
-
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Mon, May 4, 2009 - 4:34 PMMy zildjians are not quite that old, but they were made before 1976. I believe that is the year the company made tooling/machinery changes to up grade their process. Although it might have improved the larger cymbals produced, I think they lost that quality we dancers (who are 'seasoned ' enough to have heard the difference) look for in sagat. I have made several inquiries over the years to purchase an even older, vintage set but came up empty handed (hah, hah, hah). They are probably only available if handed down, inherited. LOL. The newer ones are still good zills and really can stand on their own in a large noisy nightclub environment or with live drums.
Like most of you, I have a few...several...well, 8 different sets and they all have a different quality and use for different music, moods and situations. I usually grab the Zildjans when I am playing on a large stage or outdoors with the Drums of Isis (minimumof 4 drummers and a riqq). Otherwise, the sustain is lost. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Tue, May 5, 2009 - 11:00 PMI guess it depends on what your ears are adjusted to. The Egyptians I know shy away from too much ringing. I put up a sample of the sounds of the 4 types I am selling. None of them have a sustained ring like the Zildjians or Saroyans. It is true it would be hard to hear them in a theater setting with many drummers and other percussionists. But in a restaurant, I find them ideal - particularly for customers who have sensitive ears or hearing aids. They are much more like castanets than anything else, but they will ring if you want them to. I am so addicted to them now that my old ones sit in their bags, forlornly neglected. They only get played when someone forgets to bring their cymbals to class - as you said.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: One hole Egyptian zills - do you play them?
Mon, June 1, 2009 - 3:15 PMI will be giving a workshop on how to play them, for those of you curious how to do it -
serpentine.org/yasmin/Sagatworkshop.htm
