Circus of Mind (in dub)

topic posted Mon, February 4, 2008 - 9:23 AM by  Brian
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Hello Renegaders.
I have been working on this dub(ish) track for a little over a week.
As many of you know, by this point I am pretty burned out on it and am having a hard time being objective.
If anyone could give me some feedback, it would be much appreciated.
You can listen to it or download it from this link.

www.circusofmind.com/dee_empty_in_dub.mp3

Its called "Dee Empty in Dub"

Thanks for any help or feedback you can give me.

All the best,

~Brian
(Circus of Mind)
posted by:
Brian
SF Bay Area
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

    Wed, February 6, 2008 - 11:02 AM
    you are amazing with your skills, Brian.
    whether you are burned out or not.
    I love it.
    • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

      Wed, February 6, 2008 - 3:51 PM
      Thank you for your kind works ik.

      By the time I finish a track, I am usually so tired of it that I find myself being overly critical.
      It really helps to hear it through other people's ears.
      I learn a lot by critiques and feedback, especially from people that I don't know personally.

      So thanks.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

        Wed, February 6, 2008 - 3:57 PM
        I have no idea how you are so good with your equipment!
        I just got a virus C and .... have much to learn.
        • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

          Thu, February 7, 2008 - 6:37 AM
          that's a great track! I've got no negative feedback to give on that one, man. great vibes, great progression, everything shines.
          • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

            Thu, February 7, 2008 - 9:22 AM
            Joe, thanks for taking the time to listen. I appreciate your comments.

            ik, congrats on getting a Virus C. I also use the Virus (TI) on most of my tracks. Its a powerful beast. My suggestion would be to EQ out much of the sound. It creates such huge, full-bodied patches that sound great soloed, but need to be carved out when used in a mix.

            ~Brian
            • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

              Sun, February 10, 2008 - 11:24 AM
              They're right. the track is solid. I know what you mean about hearing it so often. When I get cranky about that, I just take a moment to feel for my GF who has to listen to it almost as much and isn't making the tune. Keep it up. It was a pleasing track. I look forward to more.
              • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                Sun, February 10, 2008 - 12:48 PM
                lol, yeah man, that's what bombed my last relationship. I'm always up in the higher chakras, making noise. keep up the good relations, brudder.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                  Wed, February 20, 2008 - 12:19 AM
                  sounds good!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                    Wed, February 20, 2008 - 2:04 AM
                    I really liked this a lot.
                    Thanks for posting it.

                    I have a couple of production notes if you'd like feedback but I don't at all want to appear
                    unappreciative (as I am not) or gratuitous.

                    Write me if you'd like some constructive feedback.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                      Wed, February 20, 2008 - 2:17 AM
                      Why not post them here?
                      • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                        Wed, February 20, 2008 - 8:16 AM
                        Thank you all for the kind words,
                        But more to the point...
                        Yes Rick! This is exactly what I am looking for.
                        I would love some production notes. I don't get enough critical feedback from producers who technically know what they are talking about.
                        I don't mind you posting them on this tribe. I think it might be educational for all.
                        But if you feel more comfortable to send it privately, that is fine too.
                        Thanks for the time.
                        ~B
                        • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                          Wed, February 20, 2008 - 8:53 AM
                          I like Rick's discretion. He's so polite. But, ya, lay it on him. I'd love to see what you have to say.

                          Brian, I know what you mean about the feedback issue. I have given my links or recordings to several people with the hopes of getting some constructive criticism and received none. I think a lot of people are just worried that they'll be bursting my bubble, but I am just waiting for the first person that wants to tear me apart. That's valuable learning right there...even if it's uncomfortable at the time. I'll have a listen again and report back any suggestions that I can pull up.
                          • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                            Wed, February 20, 2008 - 8:57 AM
                            Maybe we just liked your songs :)
                            • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                              Wed, February 20, 2008 - 9:53 AM
                              Maybe you're not mean enough...lol. I hear ya, Stickboy. It's a tough game, this music stuff. It's hard to be critical openly when so many people out there just get so offended if you criticize anything. I guess it's all about tact.

                              Brian, I listened again. I do dig the tune. Here are a couple of criticisms that come to mind.
                              The snare: it's a bit soft for the style IMHO. Maybe meaten it up or perhaps add a bit of a rim-shot sound over the existing snare (maybe not in every instance, but occasionally it might help to build *more* interest - it is interesting already).
                              Beyond that, the bass lines are great. Very good sounds. Maybe add a bit of verb to give the bass more body.

                              This is me dredging up suggestions. it's a great track. And, of course, as always...if you like it, who cares what people say or think about it. It is yours after all.
                              • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                                Wed, February 20, 2008 - 4:09 PM
                                Very good suggestions sAro.
                                I agree that the snare could use some variation and snap.
                                I usually get the snare sounding how I like before I add everything else. I often forget that it sounds much different after the track is finished and the snare is in more of a context.
                                I will listen to the bass again, but I think I like it the way it is.

                                I know that a track is all about me, and my own personal expression. BUT, some technical things are hard to notice due to my hearing of a track 1000 too many times. So, outside suggestions are always appreciated.

                                Thank you much.
                          • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                            Wed, February 20, 2008 - 9:03 AM
                            Thanks sAro. I would appreciate that.
                            I think the critical feedback is all about the intention of the poster, and the type of feedback.
                            I have found that many people claim to really want honesty, but are actually afraid of it.
                            So I understand people's hesitation to giving real honest, critical feedback.
                            I also think certain types of technical comments should only be given by people who know enough to speak about it.
                            Does this make sense?
                            But yeah, bring it on. I am not attached. I know I am still just learning and am a beginner compared to many producers on here.
                            I think we can all really help each other out.
                            I have been away from this track long enough now that I am now noticing things myself that could be improved.
                        • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                          Wed, February 20, 2008 - 9:05 AM
                          No, that's cool for me to post here. Sometimes people want to be critiqued in private
                          for ego reasons and I was just trying to be sensitive to that possibility.

                          I have an assumption about your mixing and it could be mistaken but here goes:

                          Due to the saturation in the high frequencies, this sounds to me like you may have mixed it
                          at very high volumes or on a system that didn't reproduce highs very well. It sounds overly brittle to me.

                          The reason that I would guess that you mixed it at high volume is that frequently when we do that,
                          our ears get desensitized to treble frequencies.

                          Ears 'fatigue' when listening under lots of circumstances: under very high volume and for long periods of time
                          and under certain drugs. In the 80's I would have called this a 'cocaine' mix because one of the results of doing a lot
                          of coke and mixing at very high volumes was that people's ears became desensitized to treble frequencies and they
                          would keep turning it up in the mix.

                          This is why it is good to mix in shorter sessions and to use relatively low volumes during most of the mixing, occasionally
                          cranking it to make sure that the mix sounds good at higher volumes.

                          In a way, if you mix at low volumes and keep cross referencing it with higher volumes and with different mixtures of
                          subsonics being added or headphones, your ear gets trained to hear what something would sound like mixed at
                          lower volumes as it would sound turned up considerably. You also save your hearing.

                          I actually have all kinds of reduction of my upper midrange hearing (intelligibility) because of both playing very high volume
                          music on stage (right next to a loud bass player) and because of really loud monitoring situations.

                          There are producers from the 80's who were norotrious for their overly brittle mixes. Todd Rundgren was one of them
                          and when I heard a session once he produced for one of my good friend's bands I was just floored by the incredible volume he used
                          and it made sense. To this day , his mixes are uncomfortable for me to listen to.

                          The only other thing that I would critique is an aesthetic critique and may not be apropos given your style.
                          But I'll share it anyway.

                          I find that though it is fascinating to listen to with dozens and dozens of fascinating sonic events popping in and out of the mix, that I
                          long for more thematic material; more melody if you will...................or at least more elements that make it
                          have more of a distinct feel, musically, as opposed to a constantly evolving three ring circus of sound.

                          I think that sometimes, committment to a melody or theme is what makes a piece of music distinctive and makes it stand out
                          from other things. I think of something like Black Uhuru's 'Guess Who's Coming To Dinner' which is more of a classic
                          dub styled tune. That has a really distintive melody that anyone could sing back to you.

                          It's a new day of course and you may not have been wanting to go for such an aesthetic, but the singer songwriter
                          Lionel Ritchie, said that if he was ever unsure of whether a melody he was writing was as strong as the production of a recording he was working on , he would just whistle the melody and see if anyone responded.

                          I used the whistle test all the time on themes and/or parts. If it sounds good whistled, it'll sound good with bells and whistles added.

                          Nice work, despite everything I"ve said. Keep it up and keep sending us more.
                          • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                            Wed, February 20, 2008 - 9:29 AM
                            Thanks Rick.
                            That all makes sense to me.

                            As for the "brittle high freq":

                            This is the thing I notice the most when I listen to old mixes that I have done. I don't feel like I mix at overly high volumes, but it is definitely not at low volumes. I use the Mackie 824 monitors in a decently treated room, so I don't think that is the specific issue.
                            One thing that I do which might contribute to this problem is work for long periods of time over many days. I understand the need to take frequent breaks, especially when mixing, yet I rarely do that in practice. I think it would be a good policy to go back and re-mix my tracks after a few days or even weeks after I have "finished".

                            I also mostly mix as I go. If I spent an afternoon dedicated to a final mix, I am sure I could cure some of these ailments.
                            I am actually writing these comments down to remind myself of new techniques and work flow styles for future sessions.


                            The other more aesthetic comments are also appreciated.

                            I find that when listening to my own older and newer tracks, that my "style" is definitely still "immature" compared to a lot of music that I am inspired by and respect. I tend to fall into the trap of adding too many sounds instead of making the main elements work together better.
                            This is something I try to make a conscious effort to do better, but over the evolution of a track it sometimes gets a little out of hand.

                            Its a tricky line for me, because I am trying to develop my own unique style, but also learn the beauty of "less is more".
                            I think it is interesting that you used the term "three ring circus of sound" since my music moniker is "Circus of Mind". So it is somewhat appropriate, but I understand what you are saying.

                            I like your idea of a whistle test. I will give that a shot.

                            This is all still pretty new to me. I bought Logic in fall of 2005 with absolutely no knowledge of music production. I have been a DJ for many years, so I know electronic music, but this is a new beast. I have relied almost completely on trial and error, reading books and manuals, and internet forums.

                            So I deeply appreciate you taking the time to give me comments and help. Personal feedback is the most helpful of all.

                            Now I just have to make time to play some more, and put these ideas into practice.

                            Thanks again.
                            • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                              Thu, February 21, 2008 - 2:37 AM
                              a couple of thoughts about your last post, Brian.

                              I own Mackie monitors (the 450s and the 350s) and one thing Mackie is known for is
                              being a bit brittle in the top end.

                              Here's an old, old trick that we used to use back in the analogue professional studio days when we were working
                              with the terrible and frequently used Yamaha NS10Ms: Take a piece of toilet paper and glue it so that it
                              gently falls over the tweeters of your Mackies and then do two mixes: one with that approach and one with the
                              toilet paper taken off the tweeters. Now, take 30 seconds of each mix and ask ten people who you like
                              but who are NOT music oriented people, which mix they enjoy more. The results will be instructional, I think.

                              and yes, long, long sessions are the worst thing you can do for your mixes.

                              The wonderful thing is that the better you get at hearing things in your mixes (or even hearing what your weaknesses are as a mixing
                              engineer) is that you will hear things quicker and be able to spot mistakes that you tend to make.

                              Everyone has a god given set of ears that are slightly (and sometimes radically different) than everyone else's.
                              We then mix with radically different mixing solutions (monitors, rooms, amplifiers, volume levels, different aesthetics, etc.)
                              so everyone is playing with a slightly different deck of cards.

                              Just as every system will have it's strengths and weaknesses, so , your own hearing will have strengths and weaknesses.
                              Add to this the fact that your hearing changes depending on what volumes you use to mix or how long you are exposed to loud sounds
                              in the mixing environment means a lot of factors are thrown into the whole pie that you have to understand if you are to be 'good'.

                              Let your ego go and embrace what your strengths AND weaknesses are in terms of what you hear. Try your mixes out on radically different sound systems (I cross refereneced against a cheap ghetto blaster, an expensive one; a cheap car stereo; an expensive one; a cheap home stereo and a state of the art one to get a handle on what my ears really heard and what my own sound systems weaknesses are.

                              Since everyones' ears are different: since everyone's sound system is different (from 'golden ear's expensive recording studios to
                              ipods on the pubic transit coming home from work) this means that we have to develop really good
                              'analagous' ears. We need to hear how things sound all over the place. No system represents the perfect solution, though the flatter one is, the more you can at least hear 'coloring' in other sound systems and ambient environements.

                              So, for the sake of your music, get up and go outside every 45 minutes. Stretch...............drink some water and take a good 10 minute break, then return to your mix...............or..............

                              Do really quick zen mixes, then move on to something else and return the next day and do it again.

                              With automation so happening with typical DAWs these days, you can just freeze what you are listening to and then listen
                              to it again the next day when you have really fresh ears.

                              It's astonishing how different are ears hear things after a 10 hour mixing session or after one has woken up in the morning, had
                              a nice cup of coffee and relistens for the first time.

                              The great thing, Brian, is that you seem so open to growth and feedback. That bodes well in your production career.
                              • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                                Thu, February 21, 2008 - 9:31 AM
                                Rick,

                                I will definitely take your suggestions to heart. (I did not know that about the 824s)
                                There is so much there and so much to learn.
                                Its funny how much we have to relearn things just to get proper habits.
                                So, I deeply appreciate your advice and comments.
                                I agree that knowing our weaknesses is just as (if not more) important than knowing our strengths.
                                I am sure I will have more questions in the future, and I value everyone's insights.

                                Cheers.
                                • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                                  Thu, February 21, 2008 - 12:18 PM
                                  there is such a wealth of knowledge in this tribe and in rick's "sister" tribe (plugin junkies anonymous.) they are usually the first tribes i check for posts. it's nice to hear rick mention the "briteness" of mackies--that's what i always hated about their powered speakers--although other djs seemed to love them.

                                  maybe it's my system, but i didn't feel much "boom" or fullness in the bass (i'm listening on home stereo speakers--ok, stop laughing.) that's one of the things i take for granted in a dub track--but then i'm more a fan of dub that shows it's reggae roots (even if it's not reggae music.) that's really the only thing i can say that hasn't been said already.

                                  other than the bass comment, the sounds are well-cared for.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                                    Thu, February 21, 2008 - 9:50 PM
                                    I just dropped in here and read everyone's comments and listened again. I'm a sucker for writing short nothings on tribe, so I'll try to digress for a minute more.
                                    first off, im not really the most seasoned person to be judging a dub track. Im new to it. But I'll say what i can in my own way.

                                    I got to say that the element i am most impressed with is the little synth blips and squeaks that kind of talk and chirp the whole track. They go with the beat into kind of bass accompaniment lfo stuff. Might even be the same synth that bends down in pitch to what the bass consists of? They just sound damn cool. You obviously put a lot into getting it all proper like that.
                                    The only thing I could say critically is similar to the latter statement. I'm a sucker for that sub bass wobble stuff in dubstep, and real big overdone kind of cannon kicks. more oomph and *pow!* with big bloomy reverb tails etc. But really thats just my input. I like the track!
                                    • Re: Circus of Mind (in dub)

                                      Sat, February 23, 2008 - 8:59 AM
                                      Man, I love this group. So much good advice with tact even. Kudos to you all for being talented, informative and helpful people. This tribe is by far my favorite tribe endeavor. Thank you all for being as you are. It is more helpful than you probably realize for folks like me that are experienced musicians, but need a little guidance in the production realm. Thanks again and I look forward to reading more. This is also the first tribe that I look for posts in, and it's not just because I created it. I love the info that we are dolling out daily. Keep it up.

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