Advertisement
Well, I can't help it. I've been pretty tonal in my creations so far. It's not for lack of wanting not to, it's just what comes out. I've been using a lot of pentatonic and modal scales, but they are pretty straight tonality. As much as I'd love to jump into atonal works, I can't force my hand. I do what I feel is natural. I guess I haven't yet started a piece that naturally tells me it's atonal. I'm sure that it would be far easier for me to approach atonality if I wasn't working on keys and systems that work on a 12 note system. Sure, I can detune and transpose, but it gets pretty damn complex to create microtonality as much as I'd love to.
Is this a bad thing? No, not at all. I've been thinking lately about how popular atonal music is. I know, it sounds strange, I should say unpopular. I've never heard in on the radio, rarely heard it in films and don't expect most people to get it when they do hear it. Ask the average music geek and they don't have a very long list of composers or producers that they can point to as great atonal composers if they can pull up any at all.
That being said, what do you all think about atonality in modern music? Is it just waiting for it's time to shine (still) or is it destined to be a small side dish to the ever popular tonality that people are accustomed to? Is it a shame that the public ear will not be tuned into it easily?
If you are working outside of tonal structure, what is it that you start with? Where do you go from there. I'd love to hear your input.
And...oh ya...is this tribe on?
Is this a bad thing? No, not at all. I've been thinking lately about how popular atonal music is. I know, it sounds strange, I should say unpopular. I've never heard in on the radio, rarely heard it in films and don't expect most people to get it when they do hear it. Ask the average music geek and they don't have a very long list of composers or producers that they can point to as great atonal composers if they can pull up any at all.
That being said, what do you all think about atonality in modern music? Is it just waiting for it's time to shine (still) or is it destined to be a small side dish to the ever popular tonality that people are accustomed to? Is it a shame that the public ear will not be tuned into it easily?
If you are working outside of tonal structure, what is it that you start with? Where do you go from there. I'd love to hear your input.
And...oh ya...is this tribe on?
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Thu, October 4, 2007 - 4:12 AMthis tribe is certainly on.
It's interesting to think of what people are used to. The 12-note scale is not, after all, the only tonal system in the world. I think people get used to easy music these days, because the artistic aspect of it is no longer a matter of public importance. As for your work, you should keep doing what's in your heart, because that's what makes it art in the first place. Myself, I go through phases according to feeling and current place in life. I have some extremely chaotic, atonal work, and also some very melodic, ambient, and groovy music that follows, if not traditional structures, at least structures that are pleasing to the layman's ear.
When I write atonally, I don't work with chords and scales. Usually, I will first work on textures, samples, and percussion, and then I will tend to focus rather on intervals to give feelings and impressions to what I'm doing. It usually starts with one sound... -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Thu, October 4, 2007 - 7:32 PMatonal seems to me to fall into a few different categories:
sample-based non-tonal music--things like trip-hop/acid-jazz/sample-based house
schoenberg type stuff--still 12 tone, but systematically opposed to the idea of "harmony"
chordal music w/no tonal center--such as this: wc01.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll (wayne shorter's "fall")
-
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 5:12 AMAtonal music has been around since before Rock and Roll.
So I'd predict that it isn't going to catch on ;-) -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 5:15 AMwhat it really needs is a hit song--who's the pop writer in here? -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 12:34 PMYa, but the terms pop and atonal just don't mesh to me, yet. I really agree that it won't catch on in a popular music format. I think it's just too much for people (the average listener that is) to wrap their li'l brains around it as it's foreign to them. But, still, I want to make some (at some point). I think it would have to end up in the experimental realm. -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 7:22 PMatonal doesn't have to mean *discordant.*
you can write an atonal pop tune w/o freaking out joe-bob, just takes a little more work if you're gonna use "traditional" instruments. if you're working with textures (e.g. samples chosen for sound quality rather than tonality,) i think it would be a lot easier. the example i provided earlier of the jazz tune by wayne shorter is an example of a pleasant-sounding song w/absolutely no relationship between the chords other than the melodic tones--it's not in any "key" and therefore is *atonal.*
seems to me that a lot of "progressive" house is pretty non-tonal and we all know how popular it is. i know that i've played some free jazz (as a musician) where we utilized the "tension & release" that is at work in most tonal pieces w/o having tonal centers. we didn't confer on what "key" the piece was going to be in and just kinda "went" for it--all skilled musicians with a minimum amount of "wanking."
maybe i'll just have to write something to show you what i mean... ;) -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 2:56 AMplease do! I don't think we've heard anything from you yet, have we? -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 8:01 AMnothing new at the least.
here's some stuff to let you know where i'm GENERALLY coming from: www.myspace.com/djtbird
gonna have to get back into the sampling thing more (kinda moving in that direction already.) -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 8:36 AMme likes, bro! I checked 'em all out, and, although I usually don't like house, I enjoy your blend of rootsy and funky. It's always nice to hear a bit of culture in the music! -
-
Re: Staying pretty tonal
Sun, October 7, 2007 - 2:51 PMYa, nice work there Mr. Bird. I like your suggestions and reasoning on this topic. Thank you for the input. I do suppose that my musical thought was too rigid to see your points previously. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
bumpin' the atonal...
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 6:20 AMhere's the full wayne shorter tune from earlier in the thread: www.zshare.net/info.html -
-
Re: bumpin' the atonal...
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:09 PMdear saro?
I completely hear what you are saying and, of course, there is nothing wrong with staying tonal in one's
entire writing career.
I , too, like you, have stayed tonal for most of my writing until a few years ago.
I really looked at Modal harmony (always staying with the same modes but creating more dissonance within
them to increase the emotional spectrum of the piece of music.
Also, there are many, many different Scalar oriented musics that can be accessed using the 12 tones of Western music.
As an example, if you use Lydian derived from playing all the white keys on a piano from F to F, you get a scale
that goes 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7,8va
This is beautiful because it has the sweetness of a major scale but the augmented 4th gives the scale a bittersweet
feeling as opposed to the sad or more 'blue' feeling of playing in the next successive mode, the Mixolydian.
You probably have already discovered this, but then you can take such a scale and make a simple alteration
to it (as in the case of the Indian Rag or Middle Eastern Maqam that takes the same scale but alters it by flatting
the 7th degree.
1,2,3,#4,5,6,b7,octave (that add an Eb to the white keys)
This is a beautiful scale because it is very exotic and oriental sounding. It has the bittersweet quality of the augmented fourth
but it also has the blue feeling of the flatted 7th)
In my own work, I began to look at moving slightly beyond my modal experiments by finding world music scales that
are , essentially, alterations of the basic modes. I used this approach just because I spent about three years only looking
at Modal harmony and was just adding , simply , to my knowledge base.
I had picked up a modern jazz theory book or two, but I found that the devices that they used sounded, well, 'jazzy' and I just didn't like what I was creating.
So, progressing through scalar orientation, then I began to look at scales that were considered more dissonant by Western modal standards, so I became fascinated by Diminished scales W,1/2,W, 1/2,W,1/2,W, 1/2 or 1/2,W, 1/2W,1/2,W, 1/2.
I loved the music of the Impressionist (especially Ravel who greatly influenced the great jazz pianist Bill Evans who , in turn, greatly influenced Miles Davis's decision to turn away from typical jazz harmony and embrace modal harmony on the great record,
"Kind of Blue" and discovered that he was particularly interested in using 2nds and 4ths (so called 'suspended chords') to
specifically NOT resolve his progressions.
A great trick with this is take anything you've written and for every Major or Minor chord you've used in it, trying substituting
a SUS 2 chord or a SUS 4 chord (1,2,5 or 1,4,5) They are considered suspended harmonies because they have no
third that makes the chord major or minor, This makes the chord ambiguous but it also really frees one up to modulate the
melody of a piece between major and minor as Miles Davis was found of doing.
Okee dokee, that's what I've been working on to get way from typical chord progressions and melodies.
The further away you move from tonal playing, however, the further you move away from mainstream Western tastes.
But there are a lot of very bored Western ears out there who are sick of hearing the same kind of musics all the time.
Otherwise, why the huge rise in math rock amongst Indie rock bands? -
-
Re: bumpin' the atonal...
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 8:31 PM<The further away you move from tonal playing, however, the further you move away from mainstream Western tastes.
But there are a lot of very bored Western ears out there who are sick of hearing the same kind of musics all the time.
Otherwise, why the huge rise in math rock amongst Indie rock bands?>
the same reason "indie" (both those self-consciously so and those who are by virtue of being weirdos) bands/performers/producers get into "different" stuff from time to time--even mainstream music needs to move forward.
i believe mainstream music is the perfect example of "the phoenix myth": it goes along until it finally can no longer work as it is, crashes and burns and then resurfaces as something new (until it becomes passé and goes thru the cycle again.) -
-
Re: bumpin' the atonal...
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 11:27 PMI agree completely.
And it's certainly time to bust out some new shit.
I was looking back at pop music in my own lifetime (from generally the late fifties until now)
and I realized that when hip hop producers first started using samplers without a classic education and started using samples as noise events instead of harmonically related
events that the palette of the typical mainstream listener greatly increased.
I remember the first time I heard analogue synth bleeps that were used as
'ambience' in a track.................completely out of the key signature of the song
how weird it first sounded, then how cool it sounded.
The use of noise and low bit resolution samples; the use of really bad drum machine sounds; sounds that were so overcompressed that they distorted.............all of these were
radical when first used and now are competely accepted.
Now odd time signatures are entering mainstream Western music in unprecedented numbers.
Maybe it is time to start expanding the harmonic vocabulary of the populance.
Let's hear it for intentional dissonance.
Rick (off to process some of the fireworks explosions I recorded on my $25 Aiptek toy video cam tonight in the chaos that is Santa Cruz's beaches) -
-
Re: bumpin' the atonal...
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 11:06 AM<Now odd time signatures are entering mainstream Western music in unprecedented numbers. >
i'm very happy to hear that. now if we could get those mainstreamers to DANCE to music in "weird" meters. it's funny, i think about that "confusing" part of rick james' "superfreak" (i.e., the end of the turnaround before the hook comes back in) and how people still try to dance to it instead of just stopping...
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-