Blue Doublets? (X-Post from Ren Faire History Snobs)

topic posted Mon, September 21, 2009 - 4:08 PM by  Dan
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Does anyone have any sources for blue doublets being worn by the lower and middle classes? A lighter shade of blue that could easily be obtained with woad and/or indigo to be specific.

I'm considering making a blue doublet, but having seen very few sources, I'll probably go a different direction.

Thus far, I've only found a small figure in one of John White's watercolors of Frobisher's journeys in the New World ( tinyurl.com/djp22g )
-The image is very small, I'd be eternally grateful if anyone has a larger copy- and some coats worn by peasants in Pieter Brughel the Elder's paintings.

Thank you!!!

-Dan
posted by:
Dan
offline Dan
Chicago
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  • Looking at the Augsburger Monatsbilder ( a series of seasonal murals from 1520's Augsburg)
    I'm seeing blue outer upper garments on a nicely dressed mounted gentleman, a couple of street merchants, a servant and a swineherd, just in the November/December section so far.
    There's two peasant guys in a group of dancing folks who are wearing faded blue or bluish-grey (looks like old jeans, but the whole painting is a bit faded too) in February...

    In Fete at Bermondsey or Marriage Feast at Bermondsey (Joris Hoefnagel) blue doublets are shown in the lower left on a dog walker, a coat holder and a groom (one might guess these are servants), as well as a mounted man, a man chatting up a nursing woman, and a dude either dancing with or chatting up some lower-class women (these may or may not be servants, but not rich men).

    An unknown man by Jan Gossaert (c.1525-30)has blue sleeves and collar showing from under his coat...
    Raleigh's young son has on a blue doublet, breeches and hose in a pic of him with dad.

    This would be enough reason for me to doublet a working class or serving man in blue.
    I've also heard of some monarch or other when preparing to engage in diplomacy with another head of state mention, "We shall attire ourselves in blue so as to appear humble." but that's hearsay, and may be Eleanor of Aquitaine (I think?) which is a bit earlier.

    It's a start. Anybody else?
    • Dan
      Dan
      offline 2
      Thanks for your reply!

      I'll have to look into that Augsburger Monatsbilder, I'm not familiar with it.

      I'm very familiar with the Fete at Bermondsey though. I've heard speculation that the men in blue coats are either servants or soldiers... either might be inferred from it. Blue coats show up many times in inventories/muster lists, etc. for the Trained Bands all over England, and in documents talking about servants as well.

      The plan would be a sky-blue wool, lined in coarse unbleached linen with stuffed self fabric buttons. The buttonholes would be done in white linen thread for contrast. Sleeves fully attached, probably no shoulder treatment, and very plain skirting. All handsewn.

      As you said, it would be for a servant or working class impression. The problem is that, based on the artwork available to us, blue doublets seem very rare, and I don't think they show up very often (if at all) in any other primary sources. I'm very...picky about this sort of thing.
      • Dan
        Dan
        offline 2
        I'd like to think its plausible that blue doublets were worn, but I don't want to make the mistake of producing a garment based on whim and speculation rather than fact.

        The reason I'm so intent on producing a blue doublet is because I was intrigued by some of the stuff I'd read on servant's livery, Brughel's peasants, and I just plain like the color blue.
        • Dan: Not sure if you have a copy of The Tudor Tailor at hand, but just a quick glance through brought up the blue doublets mentioned (in the Fete -- the guy with the buckler on this back and the dancer, on pg. 11) as well as The Embarcation at Dover (pg. 18). On page 39, "The main colours were black, white, blue, and red, and these were usually confined to specific garments." The most telling info is on page 40: "Blue is mentioned predominantly in Elizabethan men's wills, mainly for coats (32% of 157 items) and stockings, although 20% of breeches (25 items) are blue too. Wool dyed with woad was cheap to produce and became associated with servants' livery, which may explain the preponderance of blue coats in the accounts of the period, although it was never fashionable." I'm not sure about a light blue as that's going to show dirt quite easily, but I would think you'd definitely be in your ballpark with a blue doublet.
  • Servants livery is often in blue. Here are a couple of period quotes I've got.

    "Livery of a shade lighter than the midnight-sky-blue, but near the sky-blue of a clear October day, was the mark of servitude in the sixteenth century."

    " 'Seruingman wears broadcloth . . . and for his colours, they are according to the season; in the summer he is apparelled like the heauens in blew, in the winter, like the earth in freese', i.e. in russet. ".

    Info on blue from Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and His Contemporaries, by M.C. Linthicum. Pg 27, and note #3 on same page.

    Nobles, when they wear blue (not often), tended to wear dark blue, at least in the few images I've found for nobles. I don't know specifics on which livery clothing items were done in blue.

    As to specific images, here are a couple I've collected, Simon Bening for both:
    www.kimiko1.com/research-1...vember.html (see the guy cranking the crossbow)
    www.kimiko1.com/research-1...Bening.html

    I've yet to wander through Brueghel but check wikimedia commons for really good large images of many of his paintings.
    • I posted this last night, but Tribes decided to eat it.

      www.artistsharbour.com/blog/w...ing.jpg

      That's the Embarkation from Dover, and I counted 4 blue-clad figures.

      As you know, blue is a difficult color to reproduce accurately (I come from a horticulture perspective, and blue flowers are almost impossible to capture without a lot of utzing).

      I also can't resist my usual nasty comments about Breugel. We covered this a while ago, when Tribes was a bit more vital. Although most of his painting was in the 60s, he chose to make his subjects "quaint" (trying to cash in on the market for Bosch). So although his colors are good, his clothing details are self-consciously backward looking (with a few contemporary folks thrown in--they tend to stick out like sore thumbs). I call him the Thomas Kinkaid of his era. Too twee for me by half. But I'm biased!
      • Noel, I adore you....*grin*
        • <<Shucks, Krillgar!>>

          The Bruegel/Kinkade thing is just a theory of mine, based more on gut than scholarship, but Bruegel has worked my nerves since I realized that he was painting in the 1560s as I had always placed him (based on the dress of his subjects) about 40-60 years earlier. I wish I find the thread where we discussed this, but it seems to have gone missing.
        • I do know that at RPF, the court livery and the queen's household livery are both in blue. (Court livery is for the Derby household, and they wear blue and gray. Her majesty's household primarily serve the Yeomen of the Guard, and their livery is blue with buff and red accents.)
          • If you mean the Northern California Renaissance Pleasure Faire in Casa de Fruta, livery for Royal House of the Tudor Rose (Derby household) is dove grey with black guards. Also at Casa, Her Majesty's livery ("Yeobabes") wears navy (don't recall the guard color).

            The livery of St. George, another nobles guild, is dove grey with burgundy guards...
            • I should note from a historical POV - the Tudor livery was green & white and the "Queens Household" didn't exist in that manner. Households were attached to specific properties (Whitehall, etc.). The people who actually attended on the Queen were her nobles, specifically her ladies and not liveried servants. At Casa the Queen does not have the yeobabes as her household - she has her Maids of Honor and lady attendants. Just wanted to clear that up for theatrical clarity.
              • The Yeobabes don't actually serve the Queen at RPF, either. But that is the explanation that they give of themselves.

                And it's true that most of the people actually waiting upon Elizabeth I were her nobles. There would have been liveried messengers, chambermaids, cooks, grooms, and so on. But it's theatrically difficult to portray all of that. And the well-dressed court ladies are so much prettier than household liveries, anyway.
  • Dan,

    Interesting question.

    Overall, the vast majority of contemporary sources do not support blue doublets. Breeches, coats, jerkins, outerwear, yes, but not doublets. This is significant, it shows the basic trends of the time.

    The Fete and Embarkation paintings show a few examples of blue outerwear - not doublets - and the blue clad men at Fete painting are indeed very likely servants in specific livery.

    There are some tinted engravings showing blue doublets among urban atrocities in the 1580s, but tinted engravings are very suspect and should not be considered reliable sources. The tinting is often done later, sometimes by 19th and 20th century art dealers.

    The Raleigh and Son painting is a smart catch. But notice - its a suit of apparel, not a separate blue doublet, and worn by a ten year old boy as well, which may have significance, and the silver gilt trim readily precludes any notion of poverty or indenture. Another blue suit of apparel, trimmed in white, was worn by a musician on the ship Primrose in the 1560s, a ceremonial job requiring some degree of finery.

    So all these sources, and others as well, show that blue was used for outerwear and at times, suits of apparel, but not for doublets made up and worn independently. We find such doublets in white, tawny, black, etc., but not blue.

    But you are persistent and found the John White image, which is very good work on your part. Here you have an image right from your time period, on a working class man, and from an artist whose depictions - of Englishmen at least - can be considered very reliable.

    There is a chance that the man depicted is wearing a blue cassock, which would conform with the information above. But looking at it, it does appear to be a doublet. Artistic license should be considered, as White may have felt it was helpful for the artistic composition. But he may also have considered it accurate for the men he was depicting.

    Using a single source for a reconstruction is problematic, but the White drawing does have respectable provenance, which does make it worth considering.

    But if you do choose to use it, consider duplicating the entire set of clothes he's wearing, so you can represent an actual, late 16th century image of a working class man - the tawny venetians, blue hose, and red knitted cap, and one in the New World, to boot. But wait - I think you are already on it . .

    Jim






    • Jim/Howard:

      What a very elegantly done post! You gently steered everyone back to the original question and pointed out, absolutely correctly, that we're all talking about blue things which are other than a doublet! Rare, rare, rare for someone to take the time to do what you did and do it so gently. Much appreciated! This sort of thing is what I used to love about Tribes. You've rekindled my interest. Thank you!
      • Thanks Noel,

        The John White drawing is interesting from a number of perspectives, not only as possible evidence of the elusive blue doublet. As depictions of Englishmen in America before Jamestown, reconstructing the clothes would be very interesting and have historiographic significance.

        Sorry about the name transposition, I was writing several different people at once and had the names Dave, Jim and Jon in my head.

        H
    • About the John White image,

      Whoah, that dude's tiny! Is there a larger image of that somewhere? And what if the blue is his coat, and not a doublet, since there's ice in the water and the natives are in parkas...?

      About the Augsburger Montasbilder, those guys may have been in coats or not, but as Germans, they weren't exactly in doublets either way. That's some sort of under or over rock, and only shows that blue was readily available in upper garment fabrics...hmm the thought plickens.

      About the Fete, is there some record of a household or company's livery that those blue doublets could match up with, so we would have a better idea that it is livery and not just some guys wearing blue? I still think they look like doublets shapewise rather than coats, but if they're definitely uniforms then it would make more sense to say that blue doublets aren't ok outside of that employer's service...
      Like if there was a picture of a bunch of Wal-mart employees helping people in their blue tabards, it wouldn't mean that a blue tabard is an appropriate thing to just wear around town at the 20thc. faire...


      It's like the tootsie pop, I like it. The world may never know for sure, and you can't quite prove a negative, but it sure is fun to discuss!
      • "I still think they look like doublets shapewise rather than coats, but if they're definitely uniforms then it would make more sense to say that blue doublets aren't ok outside of that employer's service..."

        I'm not sure that they had the same concept of a 8-5 working day that we have, and they certainly had less clothing. My understanding is that livery was considered a bit of a mark-of-rank in the serving classes (you had to earn the right to wear it, and then have it gifted to you), so I am not sure that the Walmart comparison (which I love, by the way, and plan to use when illustrating other points about garb as needed - thank you!) works in this case.
        • Good point. In extension of that idea then, it wouldn't mean that just anybody would be wearing a blue tabard around town, it was only employees of Wal-mart. Similarly one wouldn't see orange aprons on anybody who wasn't in the sevice of the Home Despot, so it was worn during the 20thc., but not as a fashionable garment for just anybody. Dig?
          I can definitely see how fellows with only one doublet would wear it even during their brief "breaks" from work, even though it was essentially a uniform (even an earned uni, like a realtor's jacket) whereas the modern servant prefers to wear the livery only while on duty.

          But are those blue upper garments on those dudes at the Fete livery for sure? They do look awfully similar in color (painter's license or fact?) and cut (uniform or trend or only one tailor in the village?). Or did they have the same garment because the stuff was on sale at the fuller?
          'cuz the Amish dress almost alike, but it's not exactly a uniform, it's just the way they make clothes and the fabrics and colors they like.
          ok, drifting way OT now.

          Where's the complete and metculously cross-referenced reference book of who wore what livery when, and in which hue(s) when we need it?
          • Just have to say I'm loving, loving, loving the tone of this discussion. Educated, educational, and entertaining!! Go figure. Polite folks discussing something rationally, building a theory, checking and rechecking their own assumptions, challenging one another (and themselves) (again, politely), generally upping everyone's game. I'm sorry to get all Polly Annaish, but given the general tenor of discourse at large today this is curiously refreshing. No shouting. No handguns. No snarking. Am I dreaming? And I'm learning something. Swoon. Sorry, I just had to say it.
            • In Dudley's account books, it's got a list of people who received cloth for livery in a specific color (in this case, "frost apon greene") for "coats" and "hose". Looks like they had to make the garments themselves (or have them made).
              • Diddle brings up a good point: account books. I'm always a little dubious of non-portrait depictions, as artistic license (and the fact that the brush was loaded with blue paint) can cause a green doublet to suddenly become a blue doublet.

                Dan, have you tried hitting up the Tudor Tailor gals? They are inventory freaks, and there's not much incentive to call something which is blue anything other than blue. They have a Yahoo group, and your question is exactly what I see posted there quite frequently. And they answer queries and will give sources.

                You also might want to try Jenny Tiramani (who does/did work for the Globe). I find her very charming and friendly. We geek out at each other about ruffs. I found her contributions to "The Chamber of Demonstrations" (Jacobean indoor theater) amazing. I learned more from that DVD than from a number of books, particularly with regard to stage make up (such as pearling your face). Great stuff!
              • I haven't studied livery, but I would also think that a household's livery would be more than just a color. Others here have mentioned that blue was a common livery color so I would think that if I were going to choose blue for my household it would also invlove cut and specific guards or trim to distiguish my household from Lord Joe Blow's blue servants down the street.
                • It was interesting to read how Henry VIII's liveried servants had a new set made every year, with each year having something different done. Not that I got much specifics in the reading, but enough of a change that in one case a man couldn't wait to find out what the new style was, so had his made up according to the current fashion.
          • "Where's the complete and metculously cross-referenced reference book of who wore what livery when, and in which hue(s) when we need it?"

            I don't have a copy, but I believe that the new Tudor Tailor book (“The King’s Servants”) attempts this for at least one year of reign of Henry VIII. Not that this helps in all cases, but at least it’s a jumping board for suggested research organization into this field.

            www.tudortailor.com/bookshoptks.htm
            • There are a number in individual reference to livery but none collected together that I know of.

              In the case of a painting like Fete, it may not be necessary. There are several elements which give the story.

              Firstly, none of the obvious gentlemen are wearing blue coats, nor are they wearing skirted garments which could be considered jerkins, coats or fitted cassocks. Instead they wear capes, gowns and such. The skirted coats are worn by servants, musicians and perhaps middle or lower class men.

              Of the men wearing blue coats, several are young and bareheaded, and two appear to be working in the service of their masters - one attending to dogs on a leash, another carrying cloaks.

              A third, carrying his master's shield and arms, looks to a woman with infant, perhaps his wife and child. A similarly fitted servant appears in the 1572 London portrait of Civates Orbis Terrarum, standing behind his master, clad in an over gown, who is entertaining two ladies.

              Civates was issued without tinting, so tinted examples - including one on the web showing the two men dressed in identical colors - should be taken carefully, for the tinting is suspect.

              Blue coats appear on two people who do not seem to be servants. They appear to be middle class. The dancing man is clearly wearing a coat, but uncouth enough to let his doublet lie unbuttoned in public. No gentlemen there, nor servant either, acting like that.

              A second is riding in with his wife on the same horse - well off enough to be a horseman, but not enough to buy his wife her own horse like the elegant, fashionably dressed couple riding ahead of them.

              A third blue coated man is walking alongside, carrying a kind of bag on a stick; perhaps he is in the employ of the man on horseback, for he also carries a sword.

              Although not germane to the thread, Fete is no doubt a fascinating painting.

              H




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