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So, who here has actually seen "whale bone" boning and would know it if you saw it?
Also when did we stop using animal bits for stays, either by scarcity or law or whate'er?
Reason being, I'm working with an outfit for a play that is very old and of unknown provenance, which is in the style of the first bustle period in the late 19th, and I'm trying to guess just how old this dress is.
Hints: the lining is super thin, had turned the color of a brown paper bag, it dry and flaky in places, shiny in places, and goes crunch when I sew it. The original consruction is entirely handsewn with later alterations and repairs by machine. The outer fabric is a lightweight gabardine which feels slighty scratchy and has selvadges that look like wool (I haven't a scrap to burn). The stays in the front (one poked out) are a dark flaky animal material that to me looks like horn, and is definitely not plastic. They are the width and twice the thickness of modern cable ties. The original thread is a bit darker brown than paper bag and a bit powdery with age, even though the gown is green.
Anybody got any knowledge that would help me date this dress? Like history of stay materials? It's not quite E-bethan, but here's where all the clothes experts are, ao I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.
Cheers!
Also when did we stop using animal bits for stays, either by scarcity or law or whate'er?
Reason being, I'm working with an outfit for a play that is very old and of unknown provenance, which is in the style of the first bustle period in the late 19th, and I'm trying to guess just how old this dress is.
Hints: the lining is super thin, had turned the color of a brown paper bag, it dry and flaky in places, shiny in places, and goes crunch when I sew it. The original consruction is entirely handsewn with later alterations and repairs by machine. The outer fabric is a lightweight gabardine which feels slighty scratchy and has selvadges that look like wool (I haven't a scrap to burn). The stays in the front (one poked out) are a dark flaky animal material that to me looks like horn, and is definitely not plastic. They are the width and twice the thickness of modern cable ties. The original thread is a bit darker brown than paper bag and a bit powdery with age, even though the gown is green.
Anybody got any knowledge that would help me date this dress? Like history of stay materials? It's not quite E-bethan, but here's where all the clothes experts are, ao I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.
Cheers!
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 11:43 AMThe American whaling industry was active throughout the 19th century, and its very possible your garment has whalebone. Its not bone actually, but baleen, a series of comb-like structures used by baleen whales for filtering small particles of food, such as krill.
The topic is complicated but here is a simple introduction, with a photo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen
The decline of the whaling industry in the late 19th century was caused by several factors, such as overhunting, the development of petroleum based oils for lighting, and the refinement of low cost steel using the Bessemer process, which led to a general steel revolution that contributed to the use of spring steel for corsets and similar uses by the 1890s.
If you have photographs of the garment it can be dated fairly readily. Please tell me its not intended to be worn for a play, or intended to be taken apart for patterns. There are several patterns available for this period and modern fabrics will hold up much better for such uses.
H -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 12:52 PMThere was a HUGE conversation on the subject of whalebone/baleen on this Tribe (sorry, Howard, again we were geeking out) or perhaps Snobs. Scott Perkins came up with some amazing source material. In fact baleen was a major industry during the Elizabethan era (late). I'll see if I can find the thread. It was really, really good.
My guess, from your description, would be a "yes" to baleen. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 1:08 PMOkay, I officially HATE the search functionality of Tribes. However, I will not be daunted.
Michele (and Howard), here's the "Techniques" thread which covered the Elizabethan baleen question. From 2008. You'll both get a kick out of it.. Scott Perkins is amazing.
tribes.tribe.net/elizabeth...aae1af886e -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 1:11 PMI'm not sure why Tribes wouldn't cough up this thread when I searched on "baleen" "whalebone" "Perkins" etc., but I just gave up and used Google and got the thread back. As you can see, it goes on and on and on and on...... -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 3:40 PMas we do... -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 4:17 PMWell, me more than most anyone else (I'm ashamed to admit). But at least I'm among friends....? -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 7:32 AMGeeks of a feather, my dear Noel.
I, too, tried the tribe search to no avail. I knew we had discussed the issue before, but couldn't remember or find where.
Unfortunately (Howard) yes, this dress is going to be use in a play. It has probably been used for many perfomances before now, since it's in the unmanaged collection of a local small opera company (along with a great many other old and probably extant garments).
As a costumer for one show at a theater that is borrowing clothes from the opera, I have no authority to demand that any of their collection be retired or conserved. Fortunately the dress is in excellent condition overall. While retacking self fabric bias trim onto the skirt, I notice almost no fading of the fabric's color. The outer fabric drapes beautifully, and recovered well from the crease that was left from a deep hem tuck gods only know how old.
Some extra bits have been added to the bodice front probably in the 1970's or '80's juding from the calico pattern and the zig-zag stitch, as well as the apparent age of the plastic buttons and the velcro.
Looking again at the curve of the back, the top could fit more into the '90's bustle shape, it's not hanging right on the low-profile bustle pad I put with it. Oddly the skirt is a bit shorter in the back than the front, I can only guess some sort of trained petticoat is meant to go with.
Would it be ok if I post a couple of pictures? -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 7:44 AMI would be interested in seeing images of the item in question. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 8:15 AMYes yes, indeed! Not my era, but I'd love to see what you've got! -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 8:35 AMMichele, I did ferret out and post the link we both remember. I think that might help. And I, too, would love to see a picture. Geek On! -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 11:13 AMThanks, Noel, for finding that Link. Kris said my name had been invoked in a Tribe discussion on whalebone and I couldn't find it myself. (Oh the strange looks I get from research librarians who are new to my driving desire to collate and collect esoterica. So fun putting all that together, though.)
Someone really should gather together a list of all these discussions so we can find them again. (he said in desperate hope that no one will volunteer him for the task) -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 11:39 AMResearch librarians live for quests into esoterica, especially at University libraries. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:17 PMAhhhh, your ears were burning!!!
I think the whalebone/baleen thread was my first full-on blast of Squittiosity at its grandest and it left a profound impression. Like a hay rack. You do it so well, and so politely!
And how nice of you to volunteer (in your copious spare time) to undertake the cataloging task.......
Seriously, I agree with you. We've produced some really interesting research here as a collective, and I find it very frustrating that Tribes can't even support its own internal search function. I always have to default to a sort of associative hand jive on Google.
I'd volunteer E-Beetle, but the next sound you'd hear would be my head rolling on the floor and she loped it off with a pole ax. If you could make out the thud above her demented cackling! If she doesn't finish her doctorate soon, none of us will be safe from teh radioactive glow which will radiate from the East and she nukes Pittsburgh and the environs, Shermanesque in her splendora. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 10:14 PMThank you. It was a lot of fun. I really should just write it up and put it on my website or something.
(Glances around carefully to see if Elspeth is near.)
Or we could just wait for Elspeth. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 6:51 AM(Flys in through the window on a large, hand-tied, period-appropriate broom made of hazel twigs.)
Sorry I couldn't bring the poleaxe, it wouldn't fit on the broom. Wow, this place sure needs sweeping.
The search functionality in Tribe leaves everything to be desired. There are many different ways the information we've collectively cobbled together here could be stored, but the hardest information design trick is to preserve the conversation for those interested in how understanding was arrived at collectively. Social networking are great for communication; blogging sites are great for individual self-publishing; neither is right for this.
If we want to make a shared repository of knowledge online, the best way to go these days is a wiki. Wikipedia is the king example of a wiki, but not all are so complex. Do I have time to research the free/paid options, or do the initial info design of a proper wiki this weekend? Alas, no. But this is my recommendation. I'm willing to contribute time and effort if enough people are interested in participating. -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 9:04 AMIncoming! E-Beetle on a besom. Sans poleax, but still very, very dangerous. We might be able to lure her down out of the corner where she's buzzing, furiously, with a lime-juice based cocktail. Or perhaps not.
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 9:41 AM! Cackling Out Loud
Seriously, if we had a searchable forum/website/wiki whate'er, that would be amazing.
I've brought the 19thc dress home to photo and futz with, pics will be posted to my profile to avoid cluttering up EC with VC.
mmm, lime juice cocktail. the mint plant on the porch has just enough leaves to make use of... mojitos and photos, whee!
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 9:46 AMCOL (cackling out loud). I am soooo stealing that. And coining MUMB (muttering under my breath).
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:16 AMHi Michele,
Its amazing these things are still kicking around old opera houses. I'm glad its in your hands, even for a moment. It will probably receive better care than its gotten in a long time. Good luck with your show and I hope all goes well.
H
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 1:33 PMMaybe the opera company would let some costume history folks examine their collection, with an idea to making patterns and taking pictures before the genuinely old items go into the trash. Where are they located? Maybe there is a college nearby with students who could do this as part of a project? -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 7:02 PMIt's in Lancaster, PA, and there are plenty of colleges around. The collection is unmanaged, meaning there is no person to coordinate or oversee such a project.
Furthermore, 19thc garments are apparently a dime a dozen around here. I've found an 1860's dress and an 1880 corset laying around in a cardboard box at the theater I was working with because somebody donated them thinking they might be useful for costumes.
I put pics of them on my FB, link a few posts up.
A few of the men's garments we used were also vintage, including a tux jacket that the lining was shredded enough that I could see the interlining layers of barely-ginned cotton batting and horsehair weft into cotton warp fabric. Plenty of antiques are available for anybody to rent from the university costume shop we got most of the stuff from for our show. They have a vast warehouse full of the stuff and don't bother to conserve or study it any more than necessary to rent out.
I know a lot more about 19thc clothes than I did before the show just from examining these few garments. I'd like to post more detail pics, but I don't have a good camera to work with. I'll be uploading a few pics of the production to my FB to show what the garments look like on people.
If only there were 16thc garments just randomly hanging around like this, that would be awesome.
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 7:52 PMphotos posted here:
www.facebook.com/album.php
There were so many it was unwieldy to put them here, so I stuck them on the dread FB.
More to come when I get the dress rehearsal pics that show the dress on the actress with a bustle pad. The gold cord laced across the bodice is because she's not as small as it is, and is a decorative treatment I saw in a fashion book published in 1882. (not just a ren-faire affectation)
Said dress burst open at the skirt hooks during the show the other night, since I didn't corset the woman myself, and the other actress didn't lace her as tightly. Turns out she was 2" bigger in the waist than the skirt that night, I had to sew the hooks and an eye back on the skirt while she was wearing it in between scenes. I'm lacing her up myself with a measuring tape handy next time.
Thanks for letting me get a bit OT folks! -
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Re: teensy bit OT Question about whale parts and extant garments
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 12:29 PMIt's a pity some of them are so out of focus. Adding the calico front was a great idea.
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