Lacing

topic posted Thu, September 24, 2009 - 11:55 PM by  Frecklehead
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I am making a lower class bodice, and need to know what to lace it with? Not grosgrain, I assume. Leather cord? Also, I used grommets (not the bright shiny ones, but still.....) should I cover them? It's not accurate is other ways (i.e. it has darts and bias tape) so should I even bother? I have the time and the ability. Thoughts?
posted by:
Frecklehead
Sacramento
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  • Re: Lacing

    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 7:04 AM
    It's always better to "couch" your grommets (cover them) ... what you lace with would depend on how much "support" you need - if the bodice is more decorative than supportive - then lighter (ribbons) could work. Personally, I've always had better luck with a thicker material (like modern shoestrings)
  • Re: Lacing

    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 8:18 AM
    Many if not all lacing cords in period were make from cords made on a lucet. These are round or squared braided cords, basically made up in cotton, silk or wool.

    You can find a machine make braid, usually in black but often in other colors, in fabric stores in their trim section or draperies that looks simliar to these, if you want to do that.

    Shoelaces do work as well. I have used leather cord too. I think Michaels has this in packages but it's been a while since I've looked for it.

    ~Val
    • Re: Lacing

      Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:30 PM
      Hey Val,

      I hate to say it, but I haven't been able to find any real evidence of lucets in regular use in this period. Trust me, I wanted to believe they were around but it seems that if they were, it was in small numbers. Fingerlooped or card woven cording - heavy emphasis on fingerlooped - appear to be the common methods of cord making in the 16th C.

      If you have evidence of lucets, let me in on it! hsifeng.livejournal.com/tag/lucet
      • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

        Fri, September 25, 2009 - 2:12 PM
        Krillgar:

        Your post brought back one of my favorite memories of traveling in Morocco which would be easy to translate to a living history situation (if anyone is still doing anything even remotely historical at faires these days--the astonishing lack of ruffs in the Casa and RPFS pictures I've been seeing doesn't give me much hope, in spite of teaching a class on the subject....grrrr...grrrrr). Okay, simmer down Noel.

        Anyhoo, when you're in Fez and Marrakesh (and pretty much anywhere they're making something), there are always a passle of boys (7-10 year olds) out in the streets finger looping with each other. We're talking 10' - 20' of thread. Often their product is passing through an open doorway or window to where you can see the tailor stitching the resulting braid onto a jellaba. It wasn't until I started researching luceting that I was even able to figure out what it was they were doing. They do produce braid mechanically, too, but FLB still seems to be quite popular (or was when I was there in the 90s).

        It would be the perfect activity for two or more folks at a faire, and could be quite theatrical (unlike luceting which is a bit fiddly and gets dull to watch pretty quickly). The Moroccan kids would carry on with one another and with the tailor, making for a nice, extended gig which has a open quality. Many of the other needle crafts are a bit static and lumpish.

        Just a thought, although I fear that authentic activities are pretty much frowned upon these days.....
        • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

          Fri, September 25, 2009 - 2:27 PM
          Diddle, I'm afraid sometimes one must just accept that times have changed and there is definitely no there there anymore. To have an entire court presentation with only a single ruff is a little odd, to say the least. But I shouldn't complain as I'm no longer in the game. But it's not as if anyone can claim ignorance anymore (as we could back in the day).
          • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

            Fri, September 25, 2009 - 2:36 PM
            Well, I'm gonna start crackin' down on my court just for you.

            These things work by peer pressure.
            • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

              Fri, September 25, 2009 - 2:44 PM
              <<These things work by peer pressure>>

              Believe me, I was was sorely tempted (for about 30 seconds) to show up at an event with a 9" ruff, in full sail, just to prove it could (and should) be done, but common sense prevailed. My other thought was to show up as an itinerant ruff peddler, bristling with poking sticks(definitely not accurate, but the visual would be fun), with a pole completely covered with ruffs and such but, again, I came to my senses rather quickly. So my ruff collection sits in our office at home by the television set, glowering at me.
              • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                Fri, September 25, 2009 - 3:13 PM
                I know that RPFS encourages ruffs, but I don't see a lot of the nobles making them. Part of that is because they're a fiddly, last touch sort of thing, and with the deadlines involved, they frequently fall by the wayside. Another part is the maintenance of the ruffs. After all, if something is WHITE and you want it to stay white at FAIRE, you're going to have to have multiples or wash them frequently. I know Lee was preparing a suite of ruffs for his Walsingham suit, but that's ancient history, now.
                • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                  Fri, September 25, 2009 - 3:58 PM
                  Send Lee my way if he'd like a copy of my "how to" which I handed out at my class.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 5:03 PM
                    I can testify that Noel's instructions are both complete and comprehensible, as well as readable and witty. :-D
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                    Sat, September 26, 2009 - 12:00 PM
                    Actually, Noel, you had posted pictures and directions online, and they were a tremendous help! The Walsingham suit has been sidelined, since 2 weeks before Faire opened year before last, we were told that Court wouldn't sign our reckoning cards, that year. This means that the wrist ruffs never even got a trial run, and the doublet has the skirting taken off, in the process of redoing it correctly. (He recreated Walsingham's portrait doublet to the best of his ability!) Not bad for one of his earliest sewing projects, I'd say. Maybe one day he'll get to wear it when we visit another Faire.
                • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                  Fri, September 25, 2009 - 7:47 PM
                  "if something is WHITE and you want it to stay white at FAIRE, you're going to have to have multiples or wash them frequently"

                  True, but it's pretty likely that if you've got the whole court traipsing around on progress, maybe not able to bring all of their personal servants, and certainly not able to send anything out to their favorite laundress in London, that even the highest-ranking clothing is going to be in highly varied states of grubby.

                  Honestly, it makes perfect acting sense for nobles wearing dirty ruffs to be bitching up a storm about how all this dirt out in Deptford/Willington/Sheepcrust-on-Tyne makes it impossible to keep anything decent looking, and after paying so much for it, and how it's all very well for the common folk to trust their homespun to the local washerwomen but one had rather wear a handful of good English earth on one's ruffs than consign them to the local broth of dungwater and foreign fleas etc. We can all pretend we have multiples at home but had to wear whatever we could pack for progress, woe is us until we can return home to the care of a proper starchwoman. And the pain of trying to manage laundry while traveling is an issue that any modern customer can relate to, one-on-one.

                  Not try to make trouble, just thinking out loud.
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                    Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 7:55 PM
                    E, that is soooo spot on! I do remember when I was ruff challenged (you've seen the pictures) passing the whole thing off as a type of "bad ruff day." Deflected from the fact that I couldn't get the g-d thing to behave. And letting customers help you "fix" problematic clothing is an excellent gig. "Here, hold this" while I futz with ruff-from-hell. And solicit said customer's opinion as to who they use, and you can see why they're ruff-less. What an excellent idea to not wear a ruff as they're too damned much trouble. Again, personalize the experience. You're all visitors to Bumfrazzle-on-Weld afterall. Compare notes with your fellow tourists.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                    Sat, September 26, 2009 - 12:02 PM
                    Elspeth, that makes a great deal of sense. We generally try to wear colors that don't show the dirt so badly, and wear a fresh shirt each day. But everything certainly does get dusty, anyway!
                    • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                      Sat, September 26, 2009 - 12:54 PM
                      Deena, when you're ready, let me send you the new-and-improveds. I think you'll like these even better. Unless, of course, what you have is vintage this June.
                      • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                        Sat, September 26, 2009 - 6:25 PM
                        Noel, I'd be delighted to see the new and improved version. Unfortunately, since we aren't part of the nobles anymore, Lee doesn't get to play Walsingham. I'm still stuck in a surcoat, but it's not nearly as pretty, anymore. 8-( I liked my pretty gowns.
                • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                  Mon, September 28, 2009 - 12:14 PM
                  Not to step on Noel's authenticity gland, but most folks I know who are wearing ruffs at RPFS buy them from Tammie at the Renaissance Tailor. They are not as delicate as Noel's ruffs but they are sturdy, washable, and look good. There's no excuse not to wear one of the low/no maintenance ones!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                    Mon, September 28, 2009 - 12:19 PM
                    Alas - I must sheepishly admit that the ruffs I currently wear are from Tammie. They're affordable and practical, if not strictly ideal.

                    I've fallen out of wearing them of late, but am determined to resume.

                    But when you can get one for like, forty bucks, there's no excuse.
                    • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                      Mon, September 28, 2009 - 12:31 PM
                      <<Authenticity gland>> ALYXX, I LOVE IT!!!!!

                      Someone on FB used the expression "I don't give a hot rat's rectum" about something or other. Combined, I submit:

                      "I don't give a hot rat's rectum about what you say, it steps on my authenticity gland!"

                      Seriously, I love the Renaissance Tailor (she's incredibly talented) and her ruffs seem to be the perfect mid-point between plain horrids and my overly anal retentive (rat rectum) confections which, I'm sure, would truly look like doo-doo by the end of long, hot day.

                      From looking at them they seem a trifle "thick" (and you seem to confirm this), but you don't get anything for nothing and you need some inner construction to get wash and wearability.
                      • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                        Mon, September 28, 2009 - 12:34 PM
                        Delicate they are not - they'll take a tumble through the white cycle with my nasty, filthy faire shirt and come out looking fantastic. Some work with an iron and I'm all set.
                        • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                          Mon, September 28, 2009 - 3:40 PM
                          Totally agree! They take a licking and keep on ticking, and without my own staff to keep my ruffs poked & perfect, I'm afraid I'll never be able to muster the commitment needed to wear a correct one in the faire environment.

                          Yes, they are thick (my apologies to your hot rat's rectum and your authenticity gland), but they do look adequate and top of an outfit nicely. Also, not a bad price at all for what you get.

                          I am determined to make a Noel-approved ruff soon, but I doubt I'll ever wear it out in the dirt.
              • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

                Fri, September 25, 2009 - 4:36 PM
                Lemme know if you ever want to play, I could be your cross ol' Hausfrau - wanting to know when you are going to make some money and flinging starch as necessary... *grin*
        • Re: Lacing - Slight OT

          Mon, September 28, 2009 - 4:35 PM
          I'll be at NCRF this weekend and will probably spend a good chunk of the day on Sunday in the German encampment. If anyone wants to learn some basic fingerloop technique, stop on by with at least two colors of yarn or embroider floss (about 6 yards of each color) and we will get you going!
      • Re: Lacing

        Tue, September 29, 2009 - 10:58 AM
        Cher,

        Re lucet use: It's been a long time since I researched this so I could be fuzzy but from what I remember it is documented that they have found lucets in viking graves/sites and also there are footnotes in the Lucet book from Lacis that I can't recall the names of right now. I am at work. I will try to remember to find and grab that lacis book at home to see what those sources were.

        I will update :)

        Thanks
        Val
        • Re: Lacing

          Tue, September 29, 2009 - 11:44 AM
          Thanks Val!

          The footnotes in the Lacis book were sort of vague if I recall - in fact I believe that was what sent me off on the hunt in the first place. There are lucets in Viking finds, and lucets in 18th C finds but I can't find evidence of any in 16th C finds. Given the number from earlier and later centuries (when we have evidence of their use) the apparent absence of any in our own chosen period gives me pause. The book references I find seem to mostly imply that lucets *must* have been around – but I feel like it is a bit of a slippery slope to make any assumptions. If there were some extant lucets, inventories showing them being passed down, examples of pattern from period Passementerie books, etc. I would be more comfortable…
  • Re: Lacing

    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 8:37 AM
    Not leather cord. It stretches and holds moisture, and without constant care will soon rot and break.
    I use narrow satin ribbon in my bodies because it slides smoothly through the lacing holes. Your grommets would likely tear that to shreds, though. I'd say use bootlaces. They're long, sturdy, and cheap, so you can replace them when your grommets snag the laces and make them ratty. Couch the grommets if you want the whole thing to look a bit less glaringly modern, but remember that couching will reduce the size of your holes a bit, and friction from the lacing may wear through the threads over time.

    Another option would be to place a guard over each side of the placket. Lay a strip of contrasting fabric as trim covering the holes, but just stitch down on the side of the holes away from the edge. Then you could still lace through the holes but they'd be hidden from view. If you can lace the whole thing closed, the lacing would disappear under the guards too.

    P.S. If you're already wondering whether it's worth the effort to bother sprucing up a bodice that isn't going to be accurate anyway, you're mentally halfway to making a more historical garment next time to save effort and feel more enthused about your project. I'm telli'n ya, when you look up from a bunch of just-cut linen pieces and say, "Man, I'm gonna be so impressed with my smock! I can't wait to show it off to everybody!" , then you've been bitten by the historical clothing bug and may never ask, "Should I even bother?" again. It's a cool feeling.
    Just sayin'
    • Re: Lacing

      Fri, September 25, 2009 - 9:22 AM
      My leather cord must be treated somehow. I've had them for years and never have they cracked or broke!
      • Re: Lacing

        Fri, September 25, 2009 - 10:21 AM
        I'm with you, Val. I had a leather shoe lace that I used on every single bodice I've worn since 1984, and it just broke this year - 2009. 25 years.

        I have switched to a black braided cotton bootlace. I can only wish that it will last as long as that leather thong.
        • Re: Lacing

          Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:24 PM
          Leather thongs do work, as long as you don't mind the stretching. I use leather thongs in my daughters' bodices because I don't WANT them to have much cleavage. Bootlaces work better if you don't want your laces loosening as the day goes along.
    • Re: Lacing

      Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:29 PM
      Michelle, I am more than halfway there lol. I hope to make a more accurate gown next year, maybe a noble, and have loads of advice and tips, thanks to you lords and ladies. I know SO much more than I did a couple years ago about historical garments. You DO feel more enthused when you know it's period corrrect etc, I know! It's awesome. :D This bodice was a last minute thing, I didn't want to spend a lot of time on it, as I am busy making something for another event.

      Thanks for all the idea, folks!
  • Re: Lacing

    Mon, September 28, 2009 - 12:18 PM
    If you're close to making a new one, I wouldn't worry too much about going the extra mile, but you should couch/floss your grommets so they don't show.

    For lacing, don't drive yourself crazy! Get a cotton bootlace and wax the bejeezus out of it so it won't break. You might want to cover the plastic ends with a simple metal point, or just make sure your ends are tucked in so they don't show.

    When you make your next one, I recommend a fingerloop braid, but wax those fibers as you're weaving it, as well. The wax really makes it stronger & more durable.

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