Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

topic posted Wed, August 19, 2009 - 2:33 PM by  Bess
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
My husband's in need of new breeches and possibly a doublet/jerkin for next season.

For his current breeches, I used and modified the pattern from McCall's which also has a doublet pattern, but I want to be more historically accurate this time around.

So, which pattern-smith is the best suited for a seamstress in need of clear instruction and ease of use?

I appreciate all input.
posted by:
Bess
Los Angeles
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

    Wed, August 19, 2009 - 4:16 PM
    Margo's patterns read more like the big pattern companies.

    I have tried Kass's patterns for other eras and liked them.
    • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

      Wed, August 19, 2009 - 4:20 PM
      I use Margo's patterns sometimes, but know that they generally run large. This is great if you are planning on doing a mock-up and several fittings, plus including boning and such. Also, I find the directions sufficient, but I've been working with someone with more limited stitching knowledge and she's been having trouble "filling in the blanks" or conceptualizing where the zoomed-in sketch fits into the project. I like Margo's historical notes and she also give options. I find Recontructing History's instructions difficult to follow (mostly formatting and not content, I think), but the patterns have worked fine for me.
  • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

    Wed, August 19, 2009 - 11:46 PM
    Just so you know up front... I am biased, since I work with Margo on the research for the upcoming Tudor pattern set. Stating that, let's see if I can tell you what I know about both companies from my experience with their patterns.

    Margo's set has a lot more instructions, step by step with lots of images. You will get a manual of instructions and suggestions, including sewing tips, info on trims, fabrics, and other pertinent info. That can be important to some people. Also, you get the whole garment in one package, which can include multiple styles, like a variety of sleeve types - all in one package. Margo discusses how to fit the pattern to the individual person, in step by step method. The patterns are printed onto tissue, so it is suggested you trace off the sizes you need to keep the pattern whole. Reason for this is because each package is complete. If she were to print onto printer paper, it would weigh a lot, and really up the price of shipping. She also ships multiple patterns for one price (as many as she can fit into the USPS Priority Mail box). I usually suggest Margo's for anyone from beginner to advanced, mainly for the help with fitting she provides.

    I've also used RH/Kass' patterns for other eras. Her sizes run to actual size, minimal to no ease added, so if you want wearing ease, you cut and fit to the size you want, not the size as given (one thing I wish I had known when I first made up her pattern). Her instructions are mostly text with a few drawings and is usually complete. I had one problem with missing info, but a quick email to Kass and she sent me the proper instructions for that part. She includes fabric suggestions, historical info on what the originals looked like (or whatever her sources), and hand sewing instructions, too. Her patterns are on printer paper which she prints from her own home on a high speed printer. This also means that you buy each garment piece you want, so if you want a doublet and a pair of breeches, you buy two separate patterns. I usually recommend RH for intermediate to advanced sewers, mainly because RH does not discuss how to make the pattern fit the individual person - so a seamstress must know how to modify the pattern to fit individual people.

    Both have historical info in their write up. I don't have Kass' pattern for anything Elizabethan, so I can't say what info one covers that the other does not. Both have mailing lists to help support their products. Both respond to emails for any problems that occur. Neither pattern set is perfect, and both seem to be willing to improve their products as best they can within their limits.
    • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

      Fri, August 21, 2009 - 7:56 AM
      HI Kimoko,

      I have had several experienced sewers tell me that Margo's pattern for men's paned breeches is difficult to work with...the most common complaint is that the various pattern pieces don't match up well with each other and some pieces need to be rescaled or recut. I know of one seamstress with over 20 years professional tailoring experience who tried to use Margo's pattern to make a pair of breeches for a client and after having to rip apart and remake the breeches 3 times and they still did not work, just gave up and found a different pattern.

      To my mind, this is a different thing than needing to adjust a pattern for an individual person's measurements. I have not made Margo's breeches myself, but it sounds like there may be a hiccup in the pattern.

      Vel
      • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

        Tue, August 25, 2009 - 3:28 PM
        I've not made her mens garments either, and the only problem area I had heard from before were on the men's doublets with the collar pieces (because in main they are period collars, not modern attached ones, and people had problems with that funky thing it does at the back of the neck, or wanted modern collars).

        My friend who had that problem with her doublet said her paned breeches for her husband went together very well, and he had a long torso and short legs for her to work with. If there is a problem with the breeches, I suggest letting Margo know about it. I would also wonder which edition those problems were from, first or the second edition? Do you know? Margo made corrections to the first ed for her second edition, which may have corrected the paned breeches issue - I don't know, so again, please let Margo know if possible. I know she is looking to improve her patterns.

        And btw, my name is spelled with two I and only one O at the end. Thanks.

        Kimiko
  • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

    Thu, August 20, 2009 - 10:19 AM
    I have used both patterns and have no particular ties or beef with either. For my husband's outfit (see people.tribe.net/dba5bbbf-...60b089c38) I used Margo's. I had to adjust the front line, front waist and the length for his belly - a natural peascod! But otherwise, it worked well, and I used a combination of Margo's and Janet Arnold for David's jerkin and paned trunkhose (in the same album - the green/rust ones).

    I have never had any pattern I could use without some adjustment for any of the garments I've made, so I always measure and adjust and make a muslin mockup, especially for bodices and doublets. The less experienced you are with a particular pattern, the more important that is. One thing Margo hasn't always included is arrows on the pattern pieces for grain. Her patterns are historically correct as far as I can see, as are RH.
    • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

      Thu, August 20, 2009 - 5:18 PM
      This just in: just used Margo's for a mock-up of a man's doublet...just to see how it would fit someone. He's a normal sized gent, that is, not too tall, but the doublet that fit him round the waist and chest was TWO INCHES too short on him. As Rebecca says - gotta make adjustments to just about everything.
      • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

        Fri, August 21, 2009 - 1:15 PM
        Everyone's waist is in a different place. Perhaps his is especially long? And of course, some men insist on wearing their period clothes the same way they wear their jeans, a little low slung (please don't let them!). There isn't any pattern that you can just cut out and make up and ta-da! It fits! It's always all about fitting and mock-up mock-up mock-up.

        I would suggest that if you have a serious issue with either lady's pattern (missing marks, odd directions, etc.) that you drop them a note. Also, they each have an email discussion list for users to trade notes and ask questions, and both of them monitor their own lists. It's a great way to get help when you need it! I believe the contact info is in the pattern package.

        The thing about patterns--and I started doing this when absolutely no one was publishing an Elizabethan or Tudor pattern--is that I want a pattern to make my life easier. And mostly, they don't. You have to make just as many adjustments as if you were starting from a drape--sometimes more. I like them mostly for providing a starting point, and giving you the shapes of the pattern pieces, but I'm learning not to expect much more.
  • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

    Mon, August 24, 2009 - 3:15 PM
    Hi Bess,

    If you'd like to get a more historically accurate pattern for breeches, why not use patterns from original pairs? This gives you a pattern which was drafted the correct way, and in the original period. Its no more difficult than a modern one, and perhaps even a bit easier.

    Janet Arnold's book Patterns of Fashion, The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women c. 1560-1620 gives several patterns for breeches of various types, along with doublets and jerkins. For the price of the book, you get tons of patterns.

    A pair of breeches appropriate to the late Elizabethan period, and from a man similar to modern sized men, are on pages 74-75. They are very simple and basically consist of three parts per leg. An even simpler 1618 version is on page 89, which can be adapted if desired.

    Gathered breeches like these were very common yet rarely seen in modern reconstructions. You might have a good time making them. They sure save a lot of effort over the paned versions.

    If you are looking for paned hose, there is another pattern on page 54. Its extremely simple and allows modification easily. One note - paned breeches are stylistically representing their slashed ancestors, so the panes must therefore be butted up together. In fact, the Italian example in Arnold has the panes gathered at the waist, and the Moroni Tailor portrait shows the same detail.

    Original tailors measured using strips of brown paper, and adjusted patterns - sometimes by eye - as they wished. You can do this at pleasure to suit your requirements in modifying a pattern. The originals were handsewn and all copies will require some degree of hand stitched details. However there are a number of places you can use a machine if you prefer.

    When you make up a garment this way, you learn from the original pattern, and figure out methodology naturally. I've never had any difficulty doing this.

    In regards to waist positions of doublets, it changes, sometimes by decade. However a general rule is that the late 16th c. waist is an inch below the ribcage. This is why its a good idea to use points attaching doublet to hose, creating in effect into a jumpsuit that stays together.

    Hope this helps,

    H





    • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

      Mon, August 24, 2009 - 3:30 PM
      I have that book and The Tudor Tailor, but I do not have the math skills to create a pattern out of what is provided.
      • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

        Mon, August 24, 2009 - 3:56 PM
        Bess, I have good news.

        No math skills are required, just trace the TT pattern onto graph paper, or draw inch marks on paper. Its that simple. Besides, the TT hose pattern is just a modified block that goes up 4 1/2 inches at the back, and swoops below. Seriously, its not rocket science.

        The TT paned hose pattern is for a man with a 34" waist. To enlarge, just add a few inches in the lining and maybe an extra pane, thats all.

        I just made up a pair of hose for another culture and period, using patterns of a surviving example I found on the web. I traced out its salient elements and cut away. A few hours of handsewing later, they fit and need only finishing details before they are done - its that simple.

        My 16th c hose are based on the Don Garzia pattern in Arnold, enlarged and modified for my size and the type of hose I wanted to reconstruct. There is a lot of freedom here, and so long as I keep the key elements, like the shape of the inner leg dip, etc., they are good to go.

        Bess, just have at it and have fun.

        Rydell, thats totally right. Cut them correctly, use the right materials and type of linings, and fasten them the way people did back then.

        H
        • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

          Mon, August 24, 2009 - 9:40 PM
          Howard, that's all very well if you can draw. I can't, and so need an actual-sized pattern to start from.
          • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

            Tue, August 25, 2009 - 8:05 AM
            I'm the same way, Deena. The stereotypical "peasant" shift out of rectangles I can do "free-hand", but I need a pattern for pretty much everything else, and have adventures in pattern-drafting that would boggle the mathematically and artistically minded.
            • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

              Tue, August 25, 2009 - 9:19 AM
              I'm the same way, but I bit the bullet and got down on the floor with the book and a ruler, and made those damned Venetians. The book says they're for a man with a 54" waist, but that's a typo for "45" because I made them up exactly as-is for my then boyfriend, and they fit him perfectly. Really, it's mostly straight lines. I can't draw to save my life, but that pattern wasn't impossible. Now, the pluderhosen I have given a miss.

              For slops, I bought a men's commercial pattern that included a pair of shorts, and applied a little logic. The shorts are the inner lining. Make the same thing up again but bigger (longer and wider) to be the "filler"--the part that shows between the panes. Stitch it to the smaller pair and stuff. Now you have a pair of shorts within a pair of shorts. Then trace the pattern off one more time (just longer, this time) and cut into strips. Imagine my shock when it worked exactly as I thought it should!

              Not a period technique, no, but remember, I'm not really a costumer :-D) Personally, I find the basic squares and triangles shift terrifying.
              • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

                Tue, August 25, 2009 - 10:19 AM
                Deena,

                Patterns are helpful for just your concern, and by all means, keep them if they help.

                Bess,

                Practically all shirts and shifts were freehand, so yours are done accurately. A recent study of surviving medieval garments that concluded among other things that medieval people measured differently than we do - they measured using fingers, or by eye and so on. Their perception of symmetry is totally different than ours. This means that sleeves, etc. could be, and often are, "off" to some degree.

                Researchers in 16th c clothing have found much the same thing - surviving clothes show errors in cutting or assembling, stitches, and the piecing of materials. There are even signs of where apprentices made mistakes in pinking or slashing patterns on fabrics. The researchers remark that since most surviving 16th c clothing is high end, the degree of error likely increased with lower end clothing, and that its accurate for reconstructions to incorporate this.

                I'm happy to say that my stuff is very, um, accurate in this regard . . .

                Pattern drafting was undergoing a sort of revolution in the 16th century and the first geometric systems were coming into place. You also have the first pattern books, from accomplished tailors to guide the process. So the use of patterns is clearly part of this. But the pattern books were only miniature outlines that had to be redrawn full size by the tailor, who used his own discretion as that of the client.

                Downscale tailors who did not have access to say, Alcega, simply reproduced the methods they were originally taught and went by hand and eye alone. They were influenced by what they saw of new styles but retained traditional methods. This suited their clients, who wanted practical hose for farm or shop, not the ball scrapers fashionable Londoners were wearing.

                Maggie,

                Glad to hear your experience with the venetians was a good one, and congratulations! Yes, they really are just a few lines and a curve here or there. I bet the hose looked great.

                Your experience in using your eye on the second pair of shorts conversion is exactly right, as the eye -sometimes with a little experience - is often enough to determine what to do next. Your shock is well earned and a great thing.

                Pluderhosen are very different, and the type of thing best learned in apprenticeship rather than "gulp and cut."

                Have fun,
                H
                • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

                  Tue, August 25, 2009 - 10:54 AM
                  For a quick & dirty scale up method, scan the pattern from the book to an image file of any kind, then either print onto a transparency or use a digital projector. Project the image on the wall onto taped up paper, and pull it back as far as it needs to be to approximate your measurements. Then you need to make your mock-up and adjust for the body you're fitting.

                  It saves a lot of time when you're in a hurry and don't want to draft it out precisely the first go-around.
        • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

          Tue, August 25, 2009 - 12:21 PM
          The TT patterns can be purchased from their website....even with shipping the price is pretty comparable to Margo, though you don't get as many pieces as you do in a Margo pattern or the excellent instructions.

          www.tudortailor.com/patternshop.htm

          I purchased the Fitted Coat pattern as I did not have the time available to draft up a pattern. I had to alter a bit for my size, but the results came out spectacular. I would however only recommend these patterns for intermediate sewers, as the instructions are on the lean side & even at my skill level it took me a bit to figure some assemblly things out.

          Becky/Beatrix
          • Re: Reconstructing History, or Margo Anderson...

            Wed, August 26, 2009 - 10:06 AM
            And too, the more pieces there are in a pattern, the more challenging the adaptation becomes. I just thank goodness that our chosen period is actually fairly simple compared to later ages. The pattern pieces tend to be simple and relatively few, all things considered.

Recent topics in "Elizabethan Clothing"