Advertisement
posted by:
|
SF Bay Area
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 3:35 PMThanks for posting that.
I don't know about everyone else, but I think that counting Frankenstein as a zombie is stretching it a bit. He's alive. Right? -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 6:47 AMI would say Frankenstein qualifies as alive. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 8:29 AMum....frankenstein was made from parts of the dead gathered from graves...
if you don't include Frankenstein then you can't include the Re-animator -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 8:57 AMI think I've got to agree with Sets. I can't think of a solid reason why Frankenstein should be seperated from being a zombie. The only difference I see is his level of consciousness. Hmmmmm....... -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 9:14 AMbut there are plenty of instances of zombies having somewhat raised levels of consciousness...
It takes effort to moan "brrrraaaaaiiiinnnsss" plus it shows they are after something specific and they know where to get it....
-
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 9:49 AMI see where you are coming from with the Re-Animator argument. But Frankenstein don't just have a slightly raised level of consciousness. He's very complex. He knows what has happened to him and retains parts of his former self (selves).
I know that one could argue the point either way and there are too many variables to have a "right" and a "wrong" answer.
So, using the argument that Frankenstein is a zombie because he is a reanimated corpse (parts of) would that make The Mummy a zombie too? -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 10:18 AMzombies are supposed to be the dead that come back to life (somewhat)
Frankentein's "monster" was a new life that had been created from the pieces of old. No consciousness, memories, etc. left from the previous brain, etc. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 10:54 AMNoun 1. zombie - a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force
living dead, zombi
I don't agree with this definition. Because as we all know there are many instances in the movies where a zombie outbreak is due to a natural force such as a meteor, virus, nukes, whatever. I'm starting to think that finding a suitable definition for zombies is just about as hard as defining art. Blah! Oh yeah, and I believe I remember a dicussion in this tribe about how mummies were sort of a sub-category of mummies. Do mummies dine on human flesh? -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 12:44 PMAnd the Zombies in Day of the dead/Land of the Dead retained complexity as well.....they could salute at an officer, "answer" a ringing phone, shoot a gun, use strategy to assault a complex, lead other zombies, understand who was killing them......
I always assumed zombies were the dead returning to life....which would describe Frankenstein, Re-animator, even Jesus...... -
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 1:01 PMI can see your logic there. However, that is a pretty wide definition for a zombie. It seems to defeat the whole genre if Jesus (or if you want to go there, half of the characters in Greek myth, not to mention Buffy the Vampire Slayer) can be considered a zombie.
I guess to me, it's also a matter of theme. Frankenstein is an antagonist, yes. But he's also the protagonist. Where as in "traditional" mythos, zombies are almost always the antagonist(s). In Frankenstein, we go through his emotions as he figures out what he is. In "traditional" zombie stories you see how people act/react to zombies. They are a tool to express human behavior in extreme conditions.
Sure, the whole zombie genre is huge and varied. People can and do interpret it differently. This is just my take on it.
But I still would only consider Frankenstein and the Re-Animator as *maybe* a side genre in the whole zombie universe. I guess I would prefer to consider Frankenstein as just a Monster as I would The Mummy. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 4:37 PM"you see how people act/react to zombies.They are a tool to express human behavior in extreme conditions. "
one response:
the villagers? -
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 5:57 PMWell if the story were told from the villagers' perspective I'd be more inclined to say that Frankenstein was a zombie. If all we saw was what the villagers saw-- the monster side of Frankenstein then it would make more sense that he was a zombie I suppose.
That's actually a cool idea for a story...hmmm -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 6:31 PMShamsa, I believe you have just came up with an excellent idea for a zombie novel. So, you go ahead and write for me, ok?! :) I'm definitely intrigued. -
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 7:29 AMActually I messed around with the idea last night. I'm thinking short story rather than a novel. We'll see. :0)
-
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 8:50 PMBut you DO see the reaction of the villagers and many people throughout the years since Shelley wrote it have been scared silly of the thought of Frankie, even though we all know he meant well......sorta like Lenny in 'Of Mice and Men'
Plus there are short stories I've read where the perspective was that of the zombie...from bite to sickness to eventual brain meltdown you see the transformation first person....based on what you suggest about who is narrating, then those stories told from the zombie point of view would mean they weren't zombie stories....
but you aren't going by the REAL definition of a zombie then are you? The real definition of a zombie and where its root comes from is a corpse brought back to life by a priest or shaman, in which the shaman acts as its master (sounds exactly like Frankenstein to me)
You are using zombie in the more recent sense...as in one that rises up and eats brains....but of course, that isn't the REAL definition, just the hollywood one.
I still go with: (pieces of) corpses brought back to life= Zombie.......... -
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 8:22 AMAgain, Sets you bring up some good points. But why does it have to be so black and white?
You are right; you do see the villagers' reactions to poor Frankenstein. But the story isn't about Alex the pitchfork guy and his best friend Larry the torch guy. The focus of the story is not the human reaction when faced with a monster that embodies the worst of them. It contains parts of that, but when you look at the actual theme of the story it's different. I agree that this is a subtle difference, but it is a difference in theme and in my opinion that is a good way to identify a zombie story.
If you want to stick to the dictionary definition of a zombie or the Vodou definition of a zombie, then what's the difference between resurrection and raising the dead? There is a difference. Zombies are animated corpses correct? They walk, moan, bite and sometimes talk. But they continue to rot. They get all squishy and smelly. But someone who has been resurrected returns to life. They are not animated corpses. They are alive. Frankenstein was alive.
I have also read stories where the POV is from the zombie's perspective. But these are written under the assumption of an already established genre, like the book Wicked. We already know the world, the rules are set and the author takes that and uses it.
And why not consider what Hollywood and popular culture has created *real* zombies? Why isn’t something that the storytellers of our time have created as valid as a two line definition?
-
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 12:35 AMWE ARE MISSING A HUGE FUCKING POINT HERE PEOPLE...
okay new thread. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 1:27 AMDidn't mean to kill it... wow.
Anyhoo... this conversation was AWESOME. AWESOME... I cannot believe it went so far. Thanks for all the thoughts you frightfully fun fans!
-
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 9:33 AM"what's the difference between resurrection and raising the dead?"
nothing at all to me....
Do you consider "Fido" (from the movie of the same name) a zombie? it adheres to the traditional voodoo Zombie definition...
someone brings it back to life to serve them...
Also look at every zombie....they are not some mechanical thing that just moves forward and gnashes their teeth between moaning hoping to get some human flash caught in between their teeth.....they have motor function only limited to what their muscles (or lack thereof) will let them do.. The also recognize humans and can differentiate humans from other zombies, which shows the zombies have some sort of choice synapse firing, which shows that zombies return to life (of sorts)....
I mean in most zombie films/stories we hear the phrase "the dead are coming back to life.." on more than one occasion...as in "back to LIFE"...we designate them as Undead, because they AREN'T dead.....dead would mean no motor function, no choice, no recognition.....we do not see that in Zombies...
also as far as Franky is concerned, he was a definite influence on most modern zombie stories....since he came from the traditional definition of what a zombie is...just because modern writers/filmmakers want to change the definition, doesn't mean they do...they just expand on the definition to where it encompasses more....I mean Franky was the true definition for 100 years and then someone comes along and does a variation and we throw the traditional to the wayside because we like the new one better? Especially if he was a direct influence on the evolution of zombie fiction.
You can't tell me that Bub wasn't practically Franky in new form....a "mad" doctor takes a walking corpse and teaches it things...and is relatively peaceful until it perceives a theat and then goes nuts... -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:09 AMActually...
supernatural.
I would say a comet (non terrestrial) that brings the dead back to life.. or radiation.. or anything...
that would be supernatural by default because the dead are alive. I am thinking anything that brings the dead back could count as supernatural??
It definitely ain't natural. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:12 AMbut Comets are natural phenomenon....whereas man putting bodyparts together are not....
so the comet theory would be more natural
but you are right....they are all supernatural... -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 6:22 PMyeah. a comet is natural. So is toxic waste.
I think it becomes supernatural when you it WAKES UP THE DEAD!!!
I think...
Ohhhhh gawd.... RUN!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 1:06 PMOh I forgot something and then I'll shut up.
You mentioned: "And the Zombies in Day of the dead/Land of the Dead retained complexity as well..."
I think that Bub was inspired by Frankenstein for sure. And Land of the Dead was the next logical step for Romero if you ask me. His zombies had evolved to that point. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 11:41 AMTo set the definition of zombie to mere resurrection, then you include revenants, such as the Eric Draven character from the Crow. I would almost rather include Mummies as a subset of revenants than group them with zombies. -
-
Re: great zombies of sci fi
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 11:44 AMI forgot to mention that I also see a big difference in having a continued self awareness and cognitive thought, vs an evolution (sorry, perhaps not the best word) of cognition such as exhibited by Romeros zombies as of Day of the Dead and Land of the Dead.
and of course, the whole hunger for (living) human flesh.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
