Sourdough

topic posted Mon, December 1, 2008 - 10:55 AM by  offlineAstrid
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I am facilitating the creation of a sourdough starter per Sandor's recipe. Any words of wisdom to share???
Astrid
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Astrid
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  • Re: Sourdough

    Mon, December 1, 2008 - 11:27 AM
    I like to add yeasty fruit to the mix. Usually grapes when they are in season. One of my students used persimmons. Not sure where you are and what is in season, but this seems to create a super stable cutlure.
    Blessings
    Linda
    • Re: Sourdough

      Wed, December 3, 2008 - 12:06 PM
      Yes, Sandor recommends that as well, and I added freshly harvested huckleberries which were perfect.
      :-)
      I am on an island in the Puget Sound.
      • Re: Sourdough

        Tue, December 9, 2008 - 3:57 PM
        Well, I let my "sponge" sit for like 36 hours which I think may have been too long cuz the dough was soooo sticky and I had to add lots of flour which made it a huge blob of dough...so 3 loaves of delicious bread later...i am happy.
        :-)
        • Re: Sourdough

          Mon, December 22, 2008 - 4:09 PM
          I am having some trouble with my sourdough bread.
          I followed a recipe in "Nourishing Traditions" where you mix two quarts of sourdough starter, flour, water (I used raw cow milk) and salt (2 1/2 tablespoons. I kneaded it and shaped into loaves and they are hard and haven't risen. I am not sure what the issue is as my sourdough starter was very bouyant and full of life.
          Is there anything I can do now to save these loaves, they have been sitting near my stove for about 16 hours with hardly any change.
          Peace, Julie
          • Re: Sourdough

            Mon, December 22, 2008 - 5:34 PM
            you can use them as a paper weight. i recommend not using milk. first off milk is hecka gross, and second real sourdough is made with water.
            • Re: Sourdough

              Mon, December 22, 2008 - 5:59 PM
              Chppper,
              You are offering advice that is really not useful and full of judgement. I feel saddened by your response. milk has nothing to do with the problem here...and sourdough can be made with any liquid. As a matter of fact raw milk will only add more benefical bacteria, thus potentially causing the bread to rise even more fully.

              I personally suspect that this is a temperature issue. The bacteria are just not getting warm enough to do their thing. Here is my response which is also posted in the Herbal Wisdom Tribe:

              Julie,
              How long have they been there? What is the temperature? I often, particularly in the winter put my bread in the oven (we have a pilot light, but with electric the light can be turned on). Temperature is often the issue, if your sourdough is active and lively. Have you used your starter in the past and did it work?
              And so true fermentation is a process for sure.
              Blessings
              Linda
              • Re: Sourdough

                Mon, December 22, 2008 - 6:00 PM
                Ps I meant to say bacteria and yeast, because of course we are working with yeast!
                Blessings
                Linda
                • Re: Sourdough

                  Mon, December 22, 2008 - 6:22 PM
                  Thanks.....I also responded in the Herbal Wisdom Tribe.
                  I have consumed raw milk now daily for over 5 years.
                  My health is vibrant because of it. I think you may be right about the temperature.
                  I am going to experiment. I think I will begin to bake them at very low temperature.
                  If this doesn't work, well, it is okay because I have learned that to be involved in life one must
                  make alot of mistake.....Thanks and peace, Julie
          • Re: Sourdough

            Mon, December 22, 2008 - 6:22 PM
            Well, if the loaves are hard then there isn't enough liquid present to allow the yeasts to thrive.

            Also, too much fat and bacteria can significantly inhibit yeast growth. But mostly likely it's just temperature and amount of liquid.
            • Re: Sourdough

              Mon, December 22, 2008 - 9:01 PM
              Thanks.....there wasn't alot of liquid....I followed the recipe given and it didn't suggest using a lot of liquid.
              I am going for a different recipe next time.......thanks skooter....peace, Julie
              • Re: Sourdough

                Mon, December 22, 2008 - 9:48 PM
                NP, YW.

                Unless you're doing a heavy rye or pumpernickel type bread, generally a bread dough should be fairly loose and, depending on the recipe and desired texture, just barely on the dry enough side so it doesn't stick to everything, A good gauge is if you're kneading it and it becomes smooth and very elastic, it's wet enough. If it is tight, has a mottled or cellulite like texture during kneading, it's too dry.

                And it's easy to correct too. Just roll the dough out and cut it into small cubes and put it in a bowl with warm water--you have to guess at it but you can always add more flour if it's too wet. Let it sit for 30 minutes to soak some up, then turn it out onto a board and knead it or run it through the mixer on low with a bread hook. Keep trying until you get the texture you want. Just remember you have limited food for the yeast so you'll tire it out if you mess too much. Better luck!
                • Re: Sourdough

                  Wed, December 24, 2008 - 9:29 AM
                  i'll help in my own way linda, so stick up up yer
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Sourdough

                    Wed, December 24, 2008 - 10:50 AM
                    Sorry if you were offended, certainly not my intention.
                    Blessings
                    Linda
                    • Re: Sourdough

                      Sat, December 27, 2008 - 6:55 PM
                      I have had 2 successful sourdough bakings. The bread is very dense. I am using spelt flour and following Sandor Katz's instructions in his book Wild Fermentation. I am away from home for 2 weeks and put my blessed starter in the fridge...I hope she makes it.

                      Has anyone had the experience with your starter that she will be all bubbly and happy and alive and then for days she is "dead" like and then she comes back to life? This makes me so nervous.
                      • Re: Sourdough

                        Sun, December 28, 2008 - 12:48 PM
                        spelt has a lot less gluten than wheat, so tends to be more dense. i wish i knew how to make it more fluffy.
  • Re: Sourdough

    Fri, January 16, 2009 - 9:26 AM
    Yeast is a funny entity. Not all are alike.
    That's the most important thing to know when trying to cultivate them.
    Some are goof for brewing alcohols and others are good for breads and there is one variety that makes sourdough

    To get a yeast that creates sourdough bread you need to culture it in the central West Coast.
    The yeasts that produce that flavor don't live elsewhere. You can buy the yeast from a company that is already there. Then maintain your own culture, but unless it originates in that geographic local all you'll have is a nasty fermentation.
    • Re: Sourdough

      Sat, January 17, 2009 - 1:40 PM
      You are partially correct. Not all yeasts (in this case, wild yeast) are alike and you should know about the kinds you might be cultivating. Also that the wild yeast from the central west coast is prized for the flavor and texture it imparts to bread. Usually referred to as San Francisco sourdough the yeasts are either or both of Candida milleri or Saccharomyces exiguus along with the bacteria Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis types 1 and 2. Actually there are symbiotic groups of yeast and bacteria, together referred to as wild yeast, in nearly every part of the world. Some are remarkable enough for names, Tasmanian Devil, Red Sea, Yukon Gold. Others are less memorable, but each has a flavor unique to the geographical location it comes from.

      While perhaps a bit tactless, chopper is correct. You shouldn't add milk to the starter. Use it in the bread recipe, absolutely, but not in the starter. Once your starter is established, you should only feed it with flour and water. Some people insist on adding fruit and milk or yogurt to help establish the starter, but the yeasts and bacteria aren't necessarily compatible. Sometimes people get lucky, but the wrong kind of bacteria will conflict with the yeast.

      The bacteria break down starches into sugars, which the yeast feed on. The yeast produces byproducts that the bacteria feed on and the bacteria produce chemicals that inhibit the growth of fungus (natures own preservatives). It's these chemicals that give sourdough its flavor and texture. These symbiotic relationships have evolved over millions of years. Better to let them pick their own playmates instead of trying to force them to work with strangers.

      If your starter is bubbling happily away but the bread isn't rising enough, temperature is the probable culprit. Wild yeasts have personalities. It can be fussy, temperamental and sometimes uncooperative. Easiest solution (you're probably not going to like) is add baker's yeast into the bread mix along with the sourdough. The wild yeast will impart flavor and texture. The baker's yeast just makes bubbles. Baker's yeast was developed so that bread could be produced on assembly line. It has no companion bacteria. It has a mild,(some (like me) would say bland) flavor, but what it does, it does well and consistently.

      I'm not an expert, but I've picked up a few things over the years. I've just recently gotten back into baking sourdough. The starter I had in the refrigerator was unrecoverable. I had managed to revive it before even when it had been inactive for almost a year. But I had ignored it for longer this time and nothing I could do would bring it back to life. I started a new batch and have been very pleases with the results (and have put on a couple pounds in the process).

      Baking sourdough bread has at least one thing in common with playing chess. It takes about an hour to learn and a lifetime to master.

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