Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

topic posted Wed, July 29, 2009 - 8:25 PM by 
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Paul Stametz, the mushroom guru who's generally very supportive of medicinal uses of fungi, has a fairly negative article on kombucha. I tend to agree with most of his points here, as kombucha just doesn't make sense to me as a probiotic- and the several people who suffered lifetrhreatening effects (one died) from kombucha in Idaho a while back had extremely acidic blood after drinking only 4 oz for a few months.

anyway: www.fungi.com/info/articles/blob.html
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  • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

    Wed, July 29, 2009 - 9:43 PM
    I didn't know someone DIED from kombucha. wow.
    • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

      Thu, July 30, 2009 - 12:33 PM
      granted, that's ONE case, and the other two were in the same area and had all gotten the same culture from the same source. I don't think this is widespread at all.

      The interesting thing to me was:
      -the CDC (or whomeveri t was) was unable to find the causative contaminant after testing all the samples sent from that area- but I'm sure there are just germs they don't have good tests for
      -the blood of all three people was tested and turned out to be very acidic. they weren't drinking huge quantities, 4 oz every day was the dose in the fatal case.

      So much for the 'all good hippie things alkalize your body' school of thought...
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Thu, July 30, 2009 - 12:34 PM
        incidentally, I grew up drinking kombucha. We just didn't ferment it to quite that acidic of a flavor- it was used more like an iced tea that was sweet-and-sour, a very pleasant flavor. try that sometime if you're not avoiding sugar.
  • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

    Thu, September 3, 2009 - 8:31 PM
    A mycologist knows next to nothing about fermenting cultures of symbiotic organisms. Kombucha is the polar opposite of mushrooms.

    In short, he knows mushrooms. Kombucha is not a mushroom.
    • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

      Thu, September 3, 2009 - 9:50 PM
      gee. I remember the part about the contamination - mycologists learn a lot about sterile culture and contamination. Stamets has cultivated a lot of fungus. And there are lots of very poisonous molds & fungi, very natural, and very very toxic. I've always assumed that commercial producers are much more concerned about sterile technique than I was when I grew Kombucha, or my former housemates, etc.

      "High acidity of the broth aside, I have seen several of my vessels spontaneously contaminate with molds. Of most concern are the species of Aspergillus I have found floating around with Kombucha. I fear that amateurs could think that by merely pulling out the Aspergillus colonies with a fork, that the culture would be de-contaminated, a dangerous, even deadly presupposition.

      The water-soluble toxins of Aspergillus can be highly carcinogenic. Several species are known killers. Since the public can not be expected to distinguish a clean fermented culture from one which is not, I fear that the unreserved use of this tea will result, has resulted in illness, if not death. (See Newsweek, April 25th, 1995, pg. 6.)"
    • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

      Thu, September 10, 2009 - 6:14 AM
      Skooter, do you even understand the words coming out of your own mouth?

      Kombucha is a fungus culture. Any half-assed grad student knows all about culturing organisms. Mushrooms are the fruiting bodies of certain fungi. Mycologists are experts in fungus biology. And Paul Stametz has been working in the field for more decades than you have been alive.
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Thu, September 10, 2009 - 8:27 PM
        Mr. stametz is eminent in his field of mushroom studies as a scholar, innovator, and theorist. Big respects. Early on he worked quite alot with the psycho-tropic ones and so has an intimate relationship with them.
        Still in all one should remember that no one expert owns all of the knowledge on any subject. So let's be open-minded on this.

        Kambucha is not exactly a mushroom. Although it is partly yeasts ( which are sort of like funghi), those yeasts are but one component of a symbiotic culture that is also bacteria and some other stuff. Science and the jury is still out on what all is in this life form. Kamboucha does not follow all of the same rules as most myco-forms. Kambucha is an exception to alot of rules and sort of has rules of its own.

        Although some kambucha culturing conditions may allow for an invasion of mold ( a form of fungus itself), mold is by no means endemic to kambucha. Mold is rare on kamboucha and can be avoided. Brewers are counseled to discard any batch that gets mold contaminated.
  • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

    Tue, September 22, 2009 - 7:34 PM
    I am a kombucha lover and kept a brew going for many years. Somehow or other something must have gotten mucked up in there because I came down with a major case of hives. I can't FOR-SURE say it was my brew, but when I drank it again - the hives came back. I just threw that entire batch away and now rely on delicious (but annoyingly expensive) store-bought kombucha brands. This is one case where I personally think someone else makes something better and safer than I am capable of. Tant pis!
    • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

      Tue, September 22, 2009 - 9:18 PM
      K is a live culture, even after you swallow it --- maybe especially after it's inside. K culture interacts with other cultures, of which there are many, to which your body is host. K harmonizes better with a vegetarian diet,--- best with a vegan diet, If you are eating meat, and other animal products, then those things attract a whole other range of microbes and antibodies. K does not like some of those and so expells a bunch of toxic stuff against them.
      this throws the body into imbalance with the result being you get sick.
      So for a wholesome (holistic ?) approach, you need to upgrade your diet --- even pharmaceuticals could be the culprit causing imbalance.. When you find the right balance of diet then K becomes a great and healing and helpful symbiotic friend --- capable of detoxifying, cleansing, having an anti-biotic effect, and more. Those who've developed a personal relationship with this life form like and enjoy drinking it , --- even craving it .
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Tue, September 22, 2009 - 10:08 PM
        what in the world are you basing all of these assertions on?
        • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

          Wed, September 23, 2009 - 11:36 PM
          Data is available from open-source material as well as from private and confidential sources I have cultivated. I drew on all of these for information included in my statement.
          But especially from personally having experienced intimate contact with the culture itself.
          I have successfully maintained & utilized Kambucha cultures in Costa Rica, Thailand, Bulgaria, and other world locations in addition to keeping the culture in USA parameters. I have held workshops on the subject in all of the above places for years.

          I think proper appreciation for the culture may well depend upon your relationship with your very own biology.
          What is it about the definition of the term "probiotic" that you don't understand?!
          (hint: "probiotic" is more than a buzzword used by the healthfood industry in order to move product).
          --- it is for many of us, a way of life.


          If you know and love kambucha, my message will totaly resonate.
          If you are new to Kambucha, hopefully your experience will be positive; otherwise it may be hard or never before you ever get religion.
          • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

            Thu, September 24, 2009 - 4:00 PM
            sorry that's not an answer.
            'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof' and all that. If it's so open-source and available, please back up the claim with a link to the study you're talking about.
            • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

              Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:55 AM
              On the contrary, my dear.
              It's up to you to make proofs.
              You've accused and denounced a healthful beverage known and loved by millions world-round for its gorgeous taste and health giving benefits.
              Prove it's not!


              Studies? Empirical tests and analysis? Biometric research? >>>
              There are studies galore going back centuries by celebrated universities and institutes globally.... in USA, England, China, Russia, etc.,etc. Kambucha is not something concocted in a garage last month, but has a long illustrious history of beneficial human use going back thousands of years.

              Do your own homework!
              Try an internet search to begin with.
              Read past threads at the kambucha tribe.

              You want to take down Kambucha?
              Bring your hardhat and lunchbox.
              You've got your work cut out for you, girl.

              You're not a believer? Cool. Your loss.
              There's a limit to how much convincing, persuading, proving, I'm willing to do to bring you around.
              Let's just say it's not for you, and it's best you turn to something you find attractive.
              • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                Fri, September 25, 2009 - 9:11 AM
                honestly, my dear, I think you're an idiot.

                Again- if you make quack-ish sounding health claims on the internet, it's up to you to prove what you've just said. Not say 'the evidence is out there. Before the internet you could get away with this sort of thing, at this point, almost everything is available through SOME kind of direct reference to a study, so do produce one.

                oh, by the way- I grew up with kombucha, I"m from one of the cultures where people drink it. It's not magical mystery stuff, only to Americans who only discovered it by way of overblown claims like you're making.
                • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                  Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:58 PM
                  What a tough customer you are!
                  I just w2onder if it is worth several hours of my time to search references that would satisfy you.
                  Now that you've advanced your thesis to the mud-slinging, name-calling stage, I think it probably would not result in any more acceptance.
                  Instead, I'm going to bail out of your arguement.
                  You just are not listening.
                  And not thinking about what little you've not tuned out.
                • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                  Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:13 AM
                  "Again- if you make quack-ish sounding health claims on the internet, it's up to you to prove what you've just said. Not say 'the evidence is out there."

                  I agree with this, but realize it'll never happen. The proliferation of pseudo-science on the internet (see: curezone website, etc) means that every whackjob out there can point to 100 other websites of dubious scientific value, and it just sort of goes around like a merry-go-round. Unfortunately, people treat stuff like this as a religion, and it's sort of pointless to argue with them or ask for actual Science.

                  It's sort of fascinating, actually.

                  Myself, I drink kombucha because it tastes good and it doesn't seem to have any negative health effects. I don't bother with the b.s. magickal mystery thinking that seems to surround it.
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Fri, September 25, 2009 - 12:38 PM
        Could you provide citations for these claims?

        K is a live culture, even after you swallow it --- maybe especially after it's inside
        - its clearly a live culture, is there evidence it survives the digestive acids?

        K harmonizes better with a vegetarian diet,--- best with a vegan diet

        K does not like some of those and so expells a bunch of toxic stuff against them.
        • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

          Fri, September 25, 2009 - 1:30 PM
          Alchemy:

          claim A >
          Kambucha is, and works as, a probiotic. By definition, what I said is what a probiotic does. The culture becomes a symbiote to intestinal flora, cleansing and strengthening them.

          claim B >
          Another item requiring fundamental understanding. ... depending upon your degree of acceptance and experience with veganism. The priciple is that all of the animal fats, and refined sugars, refined grains, and excessive industrial chemicals such as preservatives , taste enhancers, petrochemical-based pesticides and herbicides, all act together to keep your metabolism in a state of imbalance. This is where susceptibility to allergies comes in. The principle is that your body is so busy trying to absorb and deal with the huge overload of unhealthy stuff that the natural beneficial effects of introduced probiotics just doesn't have a chance to take place.
          In other words, the idea is that one's system is so filthy that the good stuff can't get past all of the dirt enough to do you any good.

          claim C >
          Kambucha is a jealous dominating life form. Kambucha does what it needs to to survive.
          The natural strategy of repulsion, that is secreting toxins in order to live long enough to proliferate, is well known and pretty much endemic to the plant and animal kingdoms, wether in the sea, on land, or in the air.
          As a probiotic, kambucha does That. that's what a probiotic does for you.
          Not much of a surprise, nor a stretch there.

          Suggestion >
          Alchemy, you seem to have a logical frame of mind and you seem to want to learn more. So I am going to suggest that you and anyone else who has any interest in The Truth About Kambucha, take this inquiry and this whole thread and bring it over to the Kambucha tribe here at Tribe.net.

          I'll bet there are those folks over at kambucha tribe who can help fill in the blanks, and might just have the scientific studies citations that you require, at the tip of their finger without having to spend lots of time looking them up again as I once did when I was first starting out,

          I think it could be a worthwhile excercise for you.... plus there are alot of nice looking ladies who are member to Kambucha tribe.
          Anyway, I'm done here.
          You decide.
          • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

            Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:07 AM
            >plus there are alot of nice looking ladies who are member to Kambucha tribe.

            What exactly does that have to do with anything? Creepy.
            • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

              Thu, October 1, 2009 - 11:31 AM
              I'm back.

              I'm talking nothing but science. Natural science. Even nicely broken down and sensible so a child could understand. Am I a schoolboy who needs to provide references? To prove what? Anyway your skepticism is matched only by your intransigeant cynicism.

              You sound like out for blood. Wanting to get in on the feeding frenzy? Why don't you and your purple hair mount your broom and fly on back to the haunted mansion?
              • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                Thu, October 1, 2009 - 6:47 PM
                Personally, I grew and drank Kombucha for about a year in the late 90s. I didn't notice any effects positive or negative from using it, and I stopped when I learned about the risk of contamination since I wasn't getting any benefit and wasn't willing to invest in reducing the risk of contamination.

                I know a little bit about contamination. I've cultivated mushrooms, used a glove box and made sterile media. I've also done a lot of casual investigation of wild fungus.

                Fungus is not intrinsically good. I have a housemate who almost died from a fungal infection and here in the bay area one or two people die every year from eating poisonous fungus. I have no reason to believe Kombucha is toxic, but I want to point out the obvious fact that not all fungi are non-toxic. And yes, I know, Kombucha its not just a fungus. But like many things in nature, I think it should be viewed with a certain amount of skepticism.

                And yes, people have been using Kombucha for a long time. And traditional chinese medicine has used cinnabar as a medicinal for over a thousand years. Cinnabar is mercury ore, and we know that cinnabar and mercury are both very toxic.

                As far as I can tell, Kombucha seems to be benign, but I've personally seen very little *real* research on it - I've seen tons of anecdotes and tons of folklore. From my point of view, when somebody like Paul Stametz who is like "the evangelist of fungus" sounds a note of caution, I listen. Not that he is automatically right, but I think his point of view deserves consideration.

                Since I don't use the stuff anymore, I'm not going to invest the time to search for citations, I was hoping that some of you who are more well versed in the world of Kombucha would have links bookmarked. I would be surprised that it would live in the human gut, that *every one* of the organisms in the symbiote survive the hostile environment in the digestive tract, but that doesn't mean it can't be so. Any data?
              • Wikipedia on Kombucha

                Thu, October 1, 2009 - 6:57 PM
                If you are interested, I'd suggest a visit to Wikipedia. They are not that enthusiastic about Kombucha, and if they are wrong, here is a chance for you to help everyone by providing links and documentation.

                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kombucha

                Kombucha is a fermented tea that is imbibed for medicinal purposes, although there is currently no specific scientific information supporting any purported benefits.[1].

                <snip>
                Health Claims

                Kombucha proponents[10] claim many advantages such as increased energy, sharper eyesight, better skin condition, and better experience with foods that 'stick' going down such as rice or pasta.

                A review of the published literature on the safety of kombucha suggests no specific oral toxicity in rats,[11] although it has also been shown to increase the size of both the liver and spleen in mice.[12] While no randomized case-controlled studies have been published in humans, several case reports have suspected liver damage, metabolic acidosis, cutaneous anthrax infections and life-threatening toxicity.[13][14] Other reports suggest that care should be taken when taking medical drugs or hormone replacement therapy while regularly drinking kombucha.[15] It may also cause allergic reactions. [16]

                Other health claims may be due to the simple acidity of the drink, possibly influencing the production of stomach acids or modifying the communities of microorganisms in the GI tract.[citation needed]

                <snip>


                Reports of adverse reactions may be related to unsanitary fermentation conditions, leaching of compounds from the fermentation vessels,[20] or "sickly" kombucha cultures that cannot acidify the brew. Cleanliness is important during preparation, and in most cases, the acidity of the fermented drink prevents growth of unwanted contaminants. If a culture becomes contaminated, it will most likely be seen as common mold, green or brown in color.
                • Re: Wikipedia on Kombucha

                  Fri, October 2, 2009 - 9:23 PM
                  OK, Alchemy, you wanted a citation Alchemy; I'll give you one. Look at the Paul Stammets article link at the top of this page. Stammets states that Kambucha is an anti-biotic. Stammets states that Kambucha has a high PH so serves as an anti-amoebic, not unlike apple cider vinegar in it's ability to keep down stomach parasites. Stammets states that a greater than 10% sugar concentration, as well as the (small) alchohol content serve to keep down invasive molds. Stammets cites some lab studies.
                  You've got to love a guy like Paul Stammets. He started out as a 'delic 'shroom hound and has since morphed into a high-demand celebrity on the lecture circuit. You've got to love a guy who has come up with a startling new revelation --- namely that life on Earth probably was kick started by fungal spores floating in from outer space.

                  Man too is a symbiotic being. Humankind is host to numerous microorganisma... most of which are benevolent. Most of our individual "bugs" and "cooties" help us interact with other lifeforms. Each persons team of microorganisms form a protective shield, as part of our immune system, against other groups and other combinations of microorganisms that woulde invade. this is biology and probiotic and the sacred hoop of life. -- all things connected. Sterility and conducting clinicaly sterile tests is not the point. When you first get a baby kambucha you need to handle it to let it get acquainted with your particular set of microorganisms. And it will adapt to you and produce a special cocktail of substances for you.
                  In the case of Paul Stammets, who handles many different fungus cultures as a livelihood, he is host to probably quite a few cultures not carried by the normal person. It is no wonder that (according to the article) his attempts to raise kambucha were soon invaded by diverse molds from his household.

                  Look, I'm not claiming that Kambucha can cure life threatening diseases.I will however, reassert my own personal claim that Kambucha has kept me from getting the runs in central america while all around me were shitting their brains out. I will claim that Kambucha is anti-biotic and cleans one's insides from throat to kidney to digestives. I will claim that kambucha is a powerful anti-oxidant --- it does have all of the qualifications. And I will claim that Kambucha tastes mighty fine, something even better than champagne, when I brew it right. And I will claim that Kambucha works for me and I like it alot. I hope it works for others as well.

                  I agree with you that many scientific lab tests are flawed.
                  Take the example of huge multi-national agroBiz chemical outfits, who have positive lab studies that total prove that genetic1ally modified irradiated food products grown in petrochemical herbicides and pesticides are good for you and good for the planet. WTF?_ Go figure!
                  I think the only real test is not what some authority says, but if it works for you and you have a good positive experience with it then who can dispute that?
  • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

    Fri, October 2, 2009 - 6:59 AM
    Well he does correctly bring the overly enthusiastic "new agers" into question.
    People who fit that stereotype tend to go off half cocked and are willing to believe (and repeat) even the most wild claims about things from people who are entirely unable to support their assertions.

    I have had one too many unproductive dialogs with people whose understanding of - say for example - the mechanics of cell biology and cancer is limited to a handful of words they sprinkle through out their conversation and it ends there. Yet these people will insist that things like Laetrile will "cure" cancer. To hear them speak, one might think that cancer is some foreign microbe whose demise could be brought about by the application of the right compound.
    And nothing, no science, no cell biology, no logic path, nothing can stir them from their idiotic perch on the pinnacle of ignorance.

    I have the same problems with lay folk who think they understand law. They get themselves to some position where they have got convinced that they are able to apprehend the thing and nothing can disturb their firm grip on ignorance.


    The barest hint of patchouli or sandalwood is enough to cause me to disassociate myself with a person.
    But then I loathe scents, perfumes, and the endless panoply of stinky shit people think they have to smother their bodies. cars, homes, and lives with. Stinky shit stinks.
    • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

      Fri, October 2, 2009 - 8:44 PM
      Hi Cliff
      I am surprised to meet you here at fermentation tribe. I've taken you as a meat & potatoes man like my father , rest his soul. My father also had no use for stinken hippies, although I've been accused of being one. I know you as the respected chief of
      DIY tribe. You are like a father to us over at DIY.
      One thing you said Cliff is for true --- that shit stinks. I don't care if you are the queen of England or the Dali Lama or the girl next door. If you eat food you shit. And shit stinks. Although the stench is diminished in the case of vegans & vegetarians. For example animals such as horses and cows pass manure that smells downright sweet in comparison to predators such as bears. Their droppings have a profound stench --- maybe by design to get lesser beings to back out of their territory.
      Is that bear the same one that appeared in the bear episode of Sopranos? You'll remember Tony went after it with an AK. Seems as if proliferating suburbs in Jersey are encroaching wildlife habitat. Why can't we all get along?

      Love & Peace
      briggi!

      .
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Mon, October 5, 2009 - 5:42 PM
        please don't think briggi speaks for all vegans. kombucha is fun cuz it tastes good, and makes me pee a lot. imo new age should be ingested as often as meat. fcuking never because it's full of shit. now can we talk about how to make ferments taste good, and stop crapping on one another?
      • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

        Tue, October 6, 2009 - 4:22 PM
        Meat and potatoes.
        Well when I was about 19 I went lacto ovo veggie.
        Then about 15 years later all the evil gods in the universe ganged up and dammed me to New Jersey and and the good gods made it up to me by making me single so I was dating: a lot. I had a problem. It didn't work to be in a restaurant and whining about the menu so I let Fish and Fowl into my diet.
        • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

          Tue, October 6, 2009 - 4:46 PM
          sorry about the choppiness of my post briggi. i've got a wicked bad cold, so am having a hard time expressing myself. what i meant to say was that people shouldn't think all vegans share your attachment to hocus-pocus new age mumbo jumbo. i'm not trying to attack you, but your posts are a bit embarrassing at times.
          • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

            Tue, October 6, 2009 - 7:18 PM
            Some Philistines don't know the difference between shaman-talk, on the one hand, and shameless charlatanism, on the other.

            Embarassment, craftily deployed, can be a useful tool in the war of winning over hearts & minds.
            • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

              Wed, October 7, 2009 - 9:41 AM
              "Some Philistines don't know the difference between shaman-talk, on the one hand, and shameless charlatanism, on the other. "

              And pretty much every New Age whackjob thinks that he's the one that sounds logical and makes sense, unlike all those other guys.
              • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                Wed, October 7, 2009 - 10:01 AM
                LOL (Brody!)

                anyways
                shaman-talk = shameless charlatanism

                (and I bet you could find that everything and anything has supposedly killed at least one person)

                I like kombucha because it re-hydrates me like nothing else after a hard day's work.
                I can get over the fact that it sometimes smells like I just rinsed out the trash bin....
                • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                  Wed, October 7, 2009 - 5:41 PM
                  I personally am not a fan of kombucha. I have made it and intutively it did not resonate with me. A few years after I stopped drinking it (and mind you I am a fermenation nut, I ferment everything except for this), I read Paul Stametz's article and since I do respect his opinion and it matched my experience to some degree I started referring people to his article as a resource, so they could make their own decision. I also emailed Sandor Katz about this and wondered what his thoughts were, he said that it has always been counter intuitive to him to use white sugar and black tea as a base to promote health. So I am not asking anyone to agree or disagree, but I do believe it is important for us to have all the information in order to make a sound decision about whether we want to ingest something or not. I personally choose not to ingest Kombucha. I am not convinced it is the panacea that people claim, and I have enough hestitation that I suspect it may even contribute to health problems. This is my journey and how I came to my decision. If you have come to a different place that is fine.
                  Blessings
                  Linda
                • Re: Paul Stametz on kombucha- negative

                  Sun, October 11, 2009 - 10:19 PM
                  If your brew comes out smelling like battery acid, and tastes like it too, then you would likely get ill from taking it. --- daily! Look at what happened to that woman in Iowa back in 1994.
                  But it doesn't have to be that way.

                  In Paul Stametz' article above, he admits a lack of interest in and understanding of the kambucha culture. Just like making wine or beer, it takes care and interest and attention to create a good brew. It is no surprise, considering his admitted neglect, disinterest and inattention, that his experience with Kambucha was not good.
                  Still he has cited positive evidence as to its merits.

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