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I've read every post of every thread in this tribe and there's one HUGE issue I've yet to see anyone sound off on... intention. What are the performers intentions, what are the promoters intentions, and what are the projected audiences intentions?
Let's start with the performers intentions. Is your motive to present your skills in a public setting to be compared and contrasted with other fire performers? Is your motive status or notoriety for the hard work you've put into your art form? Is your motive a potential cash reward for your caliber of performance? Or, is it a combination of any or all of these possibilities? I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
How about the promoters intentions? What I've gathered from Tedward's post is that this is a promoter that books large scale commercial events appealing to a vast mainstream audience. This promoter has booked fire performers at past events as a form of entertainment for these audiences. Recognizing the awe and relative novelty of the fire arts, one could assume that he foresees a potentially lucrative opportunity in (further) commercializing our art form. Not to mention the probability of corporate sponsors, which our participation would directly support. Again, I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
Now the audiences intentions. I think that's pretty simple really. They just want to see a good show like any audience does. We are however talking about a vast mainstream audience that's drawn by commercial means such as newspaper ads, radio ads, etc. Most likely not the underground or Burner type crowd that we would perform for at an event like Decompression, The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" in Oakland, or Burning Man's upcoming "Fire Festival" in San Francisco. Again, I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
For argument's sake, if we can at least hypothetically agree that the above intentions are reasonably accurate, than why stop (or start) here? What I mean is, if we're going to (further) commercialize our art form, why not take it all the way? If you're inclined to move beyond promoters in OUR community, such as Burning Man or The Crucible... than how about the X-Games or even the Olympics? I would guess that high-velocity fire balls orbiting the body at close proximity would merit the X-Games classification of "extreme sport". We're already talking about a competition with judging, so anyone who approves or disapproves of that format shouldn't have any more gripe with X-Games than they would with the Lobsterfest promoter.
Please don't assume that because I'm the first to bring up this possibility automatically means I condone it. Personally, I get the chills at a mere thought of our art form being commercialized beyond whatever level it has already reached. However, personal feelings aside, I do feel that *IF* our art form is going to be taken to the next level of public recognition and presented in a competitive format, it should be done with the absolute maximum amount of respect due. In other words, in a reputable, internationally recognized, world class competition. NOT just with some random promoter wanting to jump on the next "hot" thing.
Speaking of intentions... that pun WAS intended ;^) tee hee
Let's start with the performers intentions. Is your motive to present your skills in a public setting to be compared and contrasted with other fire performers? Is your motive status or notoriety for the hard work you've put into your art form? Is your motive a potential cash reward for your caliber of performance? Or, is it a combination of any or all of these possibilities? I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
How about the promoters intentions? What I've gathered from Tedward's post is that this is a promoter that books large scale commercial events appealing to a vast mainstream audience. This promoter has booked fire performers at past events as a form of entertainment for these audiences. Recognizing the awe and relative novelty of the fire arts, one could assume that he foresees a potentially lucrative opportunity in (further) commercializing our art form. Not to mention the probability of corporate sponsors, which our participation would directly support. Again, I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
Now the audiences intentions. I think that's pretty simple really. They just want to see a good show like any audience does. We are however talking about a vast mainstream audience that's drawn by commercial means such as newspaper ads, radio ads, etc. Most likely not the underground or Burner type crowd that we would perform for at an event like Decompression, The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" in Oakland, or Burning Man's upcoming "Fire Festival" in San Francisco. Again, I'm not trying to imply that any of this is negative, I'm merely attempting to isolate the intentions.
For argument's sake, if we can at least hypothetically agree that the above intentions are reasonably accurate, than why stop (or start) here? What I mean is, if we're going to (further) commercialize our art form, why not take it all the way? If you're inclined to move beyond promoters in OUR community, such as Burning Man or The Crucible... than how about the X-Games or even the Olympics? I would guess that high-velocity fire balls orbiting the body at close proximity would merit the X-Games classification of "extreme sport". We're already talking about a competition with judging, so anyone who approves or disapproves of that format shouldn't have any more gripe with X-Games than they would with the Lobsterfest promoter.
Please don't assume that because I'm the first to bring up this possibility automatically means I condone it. Personally, I get the chills at a mere thought of our art form being commercialized beyond whatever level it has already reached. However, personal feelings aside, I do feel that *IF* our art form is going to be taken to the next level of public recognition and presented in a competitive format, it should be done with the absolute maximum amount of respect due. In other words, in a reputable, internationally recognized, world class competition. NOT just with some random promoter wanting to jump on the next "hot" thing.
Speaking of intentions... that pun WAS intended ;^) tee hee
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Re: Intention!
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 5:41 PMIncidentally, if this thing does go down...
I'll be on the first flight down to Los Angeles to KICK all yall's ASSES!!!
HA! HA! HA! Me so fukn' funny!!!!! ;^) lol
Disclaimer: So as to be perfectly clear to those who don't know me...
This post is exclusively intended as comic relief!
Furthermore, all misspellings and bad grammar are intentional ;^) lol
burn bright,
love, laughter & light...
~Vatra~ -
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Re: Intention!
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 6:50 PM>>In other words, in a reputable, internationally recognized, world class competition.<<
Actually, most reputable competitions like the Olympics won't touch a new sport until it has it's own judging mechanisms. Heck, Tony Hawk is STILL negotiation with them.
Besides, the skillsets involved already WERE in the olympics. Around the turn of the last century, gymnastics included "indian club swinging" as a sub genre.
As to this promotor being small time, you may be right. He's an old hippie that wants to bring sub culture into the mainstream. And yes, most likely he'll want budweiser to sponsor this event too.
But if you think you can find a better setup for a competition, please let me know. I'll drop this idea and go on with something easier, like a regional burn. -
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Re: Intention!
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 8:48 PM>>Actually, most reputable competitions like the Olympics won't touch a new sport until it has it's own judging mechanisms.<<
I only briefly mentioned the Olympics and I'm somewhat aware of how difficult it is to introduce a "new" sport. That's why in my post, I concentrated more on the X-Games in the first place. Not to mention the element of fire would probably be better suited in an "extreme sport" competition.
>>Besides, the skill sets involved already WERE in the Olympics. Around the turn of the last century, gymnastics included "Indian club swinging" as a sub genre.<<
I'm also aware of this, although I never new about "Indian", I thought it was just called club swinging. That's where the move "waist wrap" came from. It should be noted that fire was not a part of club swinging, and also that clubs are limited to only a fraction of what's possible with Poi.
>>As to this promoter being small time, you may be right. He's an old hippie that wants to bring sub culture into the mainstream. And yes, most likely he'll want Budweiser to sponsor this event too.<<
There's nothing wrong with being small time. Besides, it actually sounds like he throws rather large scale events. I just felt obligated to voice my opinion, which is to think long and hard about the potential ramifications of turning over the presentation of our art form to someone outside of the fire community. Especially someone with monetary motives who isn't shy about commercializing and branding our art form with corporate sponsorships. It would be a pity if you worked long and hard organizing this competition only to be left with an obscenely bad taste in your mouth afterward due to the manor in which the competition was presented.
>>But if you think you can find a better setup for a competition, please let me know. I'll drop this idea and go on with something easier, like a regional burn.<<
Now your talking! Let's keep it in the family, huh?
Crimson Rose recently informed me that Burning Man is planning a large scale Fire Festival in San Francisco in March-ish of 2006. As you may have guessed, she also wants fire performance to be prominently featured. This may be the ultimate (and non-commercialized) setting for a Fire Arts Competition.
If the craving for moving fire dancing from performance art to competition must be appeased, then let it at least happen in our community. Who better than Burning Man? They're the promoters of the event where so many of us (including myself) were first exposed to and inspired by fire dancing in the first place.
There may be a day when the Fire Arts are sold-out and commercialized by the performance artists themselves. Let's NOT make that day today, and let's NOT be the ones to do it on any day in the future! -
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Re: Intention!
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 10:46 PMI somehow doubt that you will gt unanimous support in saying a BM event is non-commercial. The other difference between her event and this one is that she only intends to feature burners. I intend to gather the other 2/3rds of the fire spinning world. -
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Re: Intention!
Mon, October 24, 2005 - 11:30 PM>>I somehow doubt that you will get unanimous support in saying a BM event is non-commercial.<<
Some people confuse the growing size of BM with commercialism. Personally, I fail to see the relationship. Despite whatever opinions someone may have regarding BM events being commercial or not, what I've yet to see is corporate sponsorship or even vending and concessions for that matter. I'd bet all of my fire tools that you won't see any Budweiser banners at a BM event either!
>>The other difference between her event and this one is that she only intends to feature burners. I intend to gather the other 2/3rds of the fire spinning world.<<
I've yet to see a BM event that's non-inclusive in any way. I find Burners and Burner parties to be the most open I've experienced.
My Fire Conclave troupe "Pyronauts" featured some first time Burners. Crimson was aware of this and she had no objections whatsoever. She was actually enthusiastic when I informed her that I intended on recruiting some new (highly skilled) blood for the Conclave.
I can't speak for Crimson... but again, I would be willing to bet my fire tools that she would not refuse someone a performance slot at BM's Fire Festival because they're not a Burner or haven't been to BM. Any takers on that bet? -
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:13 AMI'm not saying that the burner community is exclusive, just incestuous. And a little blinded by it's own glow. Most burner-spinners think that you must have gone to burningman to have learned fire arts. That simply isn't the case. And more than half the fire spinners I've run into haven't even heard of buringman. They sure as heck aren't on the mailing lists.
Try this, go to My space, get on one of their fire tribes. Then ask the 1000+ people in it how many have gone to BM. I did it last year and got less than 20 positive responces. But I also got a LOT of mail asking about it. -
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:48 AMThat's all well and fine, but if you acknowledge that BM events aren't exclusive, then what's the debate about anyway?
You were first to suggest a BM event in the first place and I agreed with you adding that a BM event would be a more positive, more relative, less commercial, and less exploitive setting for a Fire Arts Competition.
I doubt that the MySpace fire community or any other non-Burner fire community would object to a Fire Arts Competition taking place at a BM regional or BM Fire Festival. If anything, it would introduce the non-Burner fire community to our world of fire dancers bringing everyone together!
In addition, the competition would then most likely receive more acceptance from a broader range of performers, especially the ones (like myself) who cringe at the thought of our art form being commercialized and potentially exploited by promoters with questionable motives and corporate sponsors. -
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 1:05 AMNo, I said that if you had a better place for a fire arts competition, I'd re-direct my efforts at something else (which happened to be a regional).
And although a BM event might be less commmercial, I could also see it being more exploiting (for BRAF), no more relative, and not necessarily a more positive setting.
I see a fire arts festival that not only includes non-burner fire spinners, but reaches out to a non-burner crowd as more inclusive and more in line with the spirit of the regional network: to take a bit of burningman to the masses.
What you're casually calling commercialization, I'm saying is a vehicle for taking the spirit of BM to the general public. Burner events advertise only to burner commmunities, draw burner crowds, and have burner talent. this is one of the most frustrating things about the BM community for me.
Just after Memorial day, we begin an annual fiasco of thowing parties to fund our camps (because we don't have enough to fund it out of pocket, theoretically). Of course, every other burner is too. And the only place we advertise these events are in burner related machines (like the JRS). This is what I mean by incestuous.
This promoter would be willing to throw a regional-like event where we would be funding the theme camps who chose to participate, paying money to performers and taking the money from a non-burner community. In the process, we take a bit of BM to them, show them art that we've selfishly kept to ourselves and everyone benefits.
You say that corporate sponsors would be exploiting us, I say that we'd be exploitin them...
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 1:18 AM>If the craving for moving fire dancing from performance art to >competition must be appeased, then let it at least happen in our >community.
why limited it to there? I mean, haven't we seen each other enough? what about other people getting to see the awesome art we're doing?
put another way, if a balet company can do the nutcracker suite on stage, why can't we do it with flow toys?
>Who better than Burning Man?
if we're going commercial, i would say that BM is not the best choice -- let's be real here... they _already_ host the largest fire dancing gathering in the world: Burning Man. it is the largest so far. So we're just suggesting a different format to the same thing...? Hmmmm....
>There may be a day when the Fire Arts are sold-out and commercialized >by the performance artists themselves. Let's NOT make that day today, >and let's NOT be the ones to do it on any day in the future!
We've spoken on this. Why not make it today? I mean, why not make money doing something we love to do? and what is wrong with getting paid? and let's be real, I love burning man, but it is a commercial organization. Period. dot com not dot org. not a 501c3 like black rock arts foundation, but a corporation that is designed to -- yes -- MAKE MONEY!!!!
what is so wrong about wanting to make money? and at that doing something you love and do well? i can't think of a better way. of course, my opinion on this is probably already pretty obvious.
;) -
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 1:31 AM"Happiness is doing what you want to do, and getting someone else to pay you for it"
-Will Rogers. -
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Re: Intention!
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 5:34 AMI never said there's anything wrong with getting paid to perform, but we're not merely talking about a paid performance here. We're talking about a commercially marketed and corporately sponsored competition.
What percentage of the revenue from this proposed Fire Arts Competition is the promoter actually giving back to the performers anyway? More importantly, what cost does it impose on the art form itself? I'm not talking about monetary cost here, I'm talking about the impact that exploitation would have on our art form.
Yes, Burning Man is a for-profit LLC. However, they are an entity that for all intensive purposes, has spearheaded the proliferation of our art form. Furthermore, BM has done so in a non-commercial methodology without corporate sponsorship or even vending and concessions for that matter.
I feel that a promoter from outside the fire community organizing an event with corporate sponsorship is exploitation of our art form. This is because those that have the most to gain (the promoter and corporate sponsors) are completely outside of the fire community.
Both Tedward and Isa (Glitter Girl) are my friends, but our opinions are obviously polarized on this topic. My primary concern is that this potential course of action will impact the ENTIRE GLOBAL FIRE COMMUNITY, *not* just the individuals who take part in it!
Do you want to see fire dancers in a McDonald's commercial on MTV? Do you want to see Poi schools in strip-malls like Jazzersize? That's the path that this type of push will eventually open up.
I'm not saying that this kind of thing won't eventually happen anyway. However, I feel that the few people leading the push to the mainstream and taking part in the further commercialization and exploitation of our art form will initiate a snowball effect. This could adversely impact the art form as a whole and everyone in the global fire community along with it! -
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let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 6:50 AMHaving had the benefit of coming in to this discussion after it's already built up a good head of steam, I see a few primary questions here:
1. An event such as Tedward is proposing will commercialize firedancing. How commercialized are you willing to get?
2. Firedancing has somewhat limited exposure outside the burner community. How much do you want to reach out to the world at large?
3. There are a lot of firedancers outside the burner community (arguably, you could include me in this category). How much do you want to reach out to non-burner firedancers?
There are a few corollaries to to these points:
A. If more outreach is good and more commercialization is bad, how do you maximize one while minimizing the other?
B. Is a burner event the best medium for outreach with minimal commercialization, or do we need to step outside that framework?
C. Is a structured competition the best format for outreach, or would some kind of festival/performance be better?
Speaking only for myself, I am uncomfortable with commercialization, which can take many forms. The most obvious would be for event sponsors to be blanketing the venue--in the extreme case, for competitors to be required to wear uniforms with sponsor logos (you know, like NASCAR!). But even if the visible branding is less in-your-face, I and many others might be uncomfortable with the implicit endorsement of the advertisers' products.
Is it good to expose a wide audience to firedancing? IMO it's not bad, but I'm in this for fun--not for money/glory/competition. I do it for me.
Is it good to draw non-burner firedancers and burners together? Yes. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 11:40 AMGreat thread Vatra, now I'm gonna get flamed. :)
What's worng with commercialization? Lets not get too caught up in burningman or retoric about promoters taking over. Burningman is an event supported buy all corporations. Unless your growing all your food, making your own clothes from corn silk and walking to burningman, your supporting corporations. Let burningman be burningman, the fire arts can be what they want to be. Musicians get paid for their art, but perform for free at burningman for the sake of burningman, we should be able to do what we want outside of BRC.
Corporate sponsorship is the way to go if you want to make this event happen. And this event has it's place. You don't have to compete, but those who wish to compete should be able to. I personally am using this competition to reinspire myself. After 8 years of this I need a good kick in pants to hear the WOOSH again.
Greed is the only way sponsors will be making us do anything. We can choolse the level of sponsorship, not them. If you want to embrace the true burningman spirit, we need to give this art to the world, not just in the constraints of burningman. Let Crimson have her sand box, and we will all rejoyce and play under her rules, but the rest of the year, the sandbox is open.
I have gifted my performance at events for fun and performance sake, and people made lots of money off of me, but I let them. I could always say no, or I could say pay me what you pay the DJ or no fire.
I would be thrilled to have a fire event on ESPN sponsored by Mountain dew and playstation with at 10,000 purse for the winner. But I'd draw the line at WWW.GOLDENPALACE.com being marked on my chest. We have the choice. ;)
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 11:54 AMOkay, I'm sick and still a bit oogie, but I'll try to address this..
Nascar corporate sponsorship was the only way to manage the extensive costs of buying and maintianing 2 vehicles to keep up with the cuircuit. Plus, they either need to replace or extensively repair one of them on a startlingly regular basis. I doubt anyone would need Budweiser to foot the bill for tools and fuel.
BM is just AN arts festival in the long run, not the only one. If it were the end-all of fire arts, Crimson wouldn't feel that a pre-summer fire festival would be needed.
Based on the things I've got back about trouble with the SF Fire Departments, I'd rather try to do something like this here, where we have a good working relationship with them, and clear, understandable rules.
I don't see corporate activity as particularly bad. If Budweiser were to try to tell us how to dress, or film us, or whatever, then I'd have a problem. But we do not even know if they're be welcome at the event. I just noted that Lobsterfest had a midway with beer and margerita sales provided by Bud. The promoter may just be accustomed to them and might want to bring them back. He might also yeild to pressure to have no corporate advertizing.
On the other hand, if you talk to any promoter, they'll tell you that it can be a long hard road to profitability. Without profits, prize money doesn't happen, and that seemed pretty important to some people in previous posts.
Finally, sometimes you just have to stick a flag in the ground and see who rallys. Not everyone will want to come to this event for a variety of reasons: 1) its a competiton...ewww, 2) it's not even corporate sponsored, so it can't be serious, 3) it's corprate sponsored, so it has no soul, 4) I'm involved, 5) etc
Yes, I'm aware of what this could mean to the global fire community. But let's face it, this is the national sport of Austrailia, fire is very commmon in Wales,northern UK, Japan, Tiawan, and it's about to break in Russia. This little event won't make national news (unless it blows up LA) the long-reaching effects may not be as bad as when Incendium broke up. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:10 PMOkay, a few minor corrections...
1) I've BEEN to Japan and Taiwan. Not all that much fire spinning there. And in the UK it's just a thing for the jugglers... so there's more non-fire spinning than there is fire. Except maybe November 5th, but I didn't see ANY fire spinning at the bonfire night event I went to last year.
2) Club manipulation is STILL in the Olympics, as part of Rhythmic Gymnastics.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:23 PMAlright... I'm a lot less anti-corporate than a lot of people (I have an mba and have worked for and am applying for work at major corporations). But I KNOW there will be people who will dislike the corporate aspects of the event. That's fine.
My concerns are not the corporate sponsorship per se... I'
m concerned about exploitation. There are many examples of arguments that have erupted after events -- where people feel exploited by promoters, sponsors, the media, etc. There are years-long battles for rights to this or that aspect of events. So why are we dealing with someone outside the community to promote this when so many people within the community are involved in putting on major events?
I'm also concerned about the atmosphere that a "competition" breeds... but I think that skateboarding and snowboarding have given us examples of collegial atmospheres around competition, where people are generally supportive of each other. Still, some of the X-games sports have really gotten messed up over the years, as competition rather than community have led to a lot of nastiness and immature behavior (of the anti-social sort).
I'm not against competition, but I think it needs to grow organically. I'm not sure that we want to make a big public splash and end up with... complications. It would be much better to grow it organically, and work within the community to begin with. Let's get some of the kinks out of the system before you start putting it on as a show. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:58 PMI agree with everything roger says.
But I also have my opinions on some things like: corporate sponsorship. I love taking money back from corporations. It's great. If they gave me money and all I had to do was something trivial like an interview or using some free <stuff> I'd be well happy. I would think most people would understand that the free <stuff> has nothing to do with my ability or performance. Much like people understand that good footballers are still good with a ancient brown leather football and a pair of trainers from a fleamarket. And if the free stuff was in no way connected to my art, like budweiser is, why would that idea ever come into their heads? Take money off corporations! They have enough of it, and they want to make themselves look nicer by giving it to me? Yes, I'll have that money thanks, and I'll go away and practise instead of getting a menial job and having no time to do what I enjoy.
Budweiser wouldn't be my first choice as they're drug dealers. But y'know.
That was a really enjoyable little rant. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 6:47 PM"Do you want to see fire dancers in a McDonald's commercial on MTV? Do you want to see Poi schools in strip-malls like Jazzersize?"
Yes.
Our underground sport/art/meditation/masturbation/ego-puffer/hobby is extremely visually attractive, edgy, slightly dangerous and therefore very cool.
When Madison ave get's wind of it, and they will, they will commodify and sell it to the masses. I remember walking into a mall and seeing expensive 8 color ads pushing the "Grunge for fall look". At 95 bucks.
We can either take a say in this, or we can let it happen to us. I love money. I love fire spinning. I love teaching fire spinning, so I can share the more conscious expanding aspects of it. Anybody need help connecting the dots?
Well, off to watch Malcolm in the middle. I wonder what tonights episode is about? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 6:59 PMSell out... :)
The problem I have with Madison avenue level of visibility is the copycat problem. I can see a bunch of people watching that McDs add and thinking that it would be cool to try. Last thing I want to do is another search for an Insurance company. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 7:47 PMYeah.... just remember rif that there are several ways to go about nurturing this thing to mainstream. It was put very very well by someone in one of the forums on this tribe (cant remember where now) in regard to how we make this thing happen. Everything(and i do mean everything) is prone to being much better developed if given a time for it to gradually get better through trial and error. I am not contesting corporate sponsorship or anything like that... that is inevitable. I am just making sure we get the picture that there is in fact a line between being a part of this art as it grows, and simply hanging on for the ride on the gravy train as it is exploited inappropriately.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 11:22 PM>"Do you want to see fire dancers in a McDonald's commercial on MTV? >Do you want to see Poi schools in strip-malls like Jazzersize?"
>
>Yes.
i was beginning to think i was the only one. :)
and, that said, while i run a poi school, i do not ever see _my_ school getting to the point of being a strip mall addition -- it just isn't the sort of experience i want to have in _my_ company.
AND... competition (on a commercial capitalistic level) is _great_. a place like that (in the strip mall) will further serve as an example of what i'm _not_ offering.
I do not see this as bad, and while I agree with Tedward there are safety concerns, I _really_ like the fact that Anah (Hoopalicious) was in a Coca-cola commercial. This _rocks_ to me.
we are artists! we are often brilliant at what we do. We have earned a place in the history books and these days, commercials are a part of the history books.
And, if Madonna is going to have poi spinners on her tour that, according to more than one of my students were not talented particularly, why on earth is that _better_ than us being at the lead of this experience?
Of course, that _doesn't_ mean this particular event is the way to go. I just think resisting corporations for the sake of non commercialization is short sighted at best. personally, i'd like to see flow arts on broadways stages, winning tony awards in the years to come.
that will be a beautiful show. The only way people will pay for it is if they know about it and commercials (and commercialization) -- like it or not -- create that possibility. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 1:21 AMWas Anah doing fire in that commercial?
How do you feel about Hannah and Kamala on MTV?
I still think it's one thing to get paid for doing your art, and another thing to letting a corporate entity determine how you perform your art.
- Friends don't let friends Cirque Du Soleil :)
okay, timme to sneeze myself to sleep... :( -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 3:19 AMAnah was not doing fire in that commercial. And?
Us successfully introducing people to the art form -- with fire and without -- is an opportunity no matter how you slice it. I feel like Hannah and Kamala being on MTV 1. is a decision between them and MTV and 2. will be hot and sexy cause they are hot and sexy and 3. a great marketing opportunity for them and for MTV. What are you asking?
>I still think it's one thing to get paid for doing your art, and another thing >to letting a corporate entity determine how you perform your art.
Yes, it probably is.
your point being what exactly? that you're going to sit there in judgment of someone else or perhaps they of you because of making a choice you don't agree with?
who are we -- any of us -- to tell any other what is and is not okay, proper, right and good unless, of course, they are taking away our ability to choose for ourselves?
Because a decision like this will set a precident in the future does not mean we should not choose and choose from our truth and from our heARTs. Each of us. As we feel it is appropriate. Even those who sit in silence and choose to do nothing because choosing to not choose is still choosing.
so in response to this:
>- Friends don't let friends Cirque Du Soleil :)
Friends -- true friends -- let friends be, act, say and do what they want, as they want, whenever they want as long as the friends are all free to do so.
You have no right to say what is right and what is wrong. No one here does. The day any of us thinks we have that right is the day we have truly sold out and lost the only thing we bring to our art: our freedom.
And I'm sure, even now, you're feeling better because you took the time to take care of your Self and the freedoms that you have...
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 9:55 AMwow, well said glitter girl!
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 10:12 AMExtremely well said... thanks -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 1:53 PMMy point is that if Anah wasn't doing fire on a coke commecial, she wasn't introducing anything into the public awareness. Hooping has been in the mainstream before and just took a 30 year lull. Fire art hasn't been mainstream yet. That's the difference. H&K were actually doing fire for a mainstream production.
As for letting people do what they want, 1) can't a guy make a joke about Cirque anymore? 2) you declared in another thread that a dealbreaker for your participation was that I was running this alone. If I'm not harming anyone, who the heck cares? Aren't you sitting there in judgement of me, pre-judgement no less. You've been to what, one of my events, and not one that I was in charge of. You've never been to the promoter's events, yet you prejudge him too. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 2:10 PMI think what she's trying to do is make sure we are all clear on what we want. You mentioned earlier that we have no choice but to adhere to one person who has the final say so. Well, when you oversee a group of people, much less an irreverant group of people who are passionate about their art, you are gonna have to prepare to hear some shit.... ESPECIALLY if you step into the role of being even slightly in charge. Some things are simply meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
It's not about PREjudge.... its about PREcaution from what i can see. If you feel like you are being judged, you could always just delete her post...:P -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 2:50 PMWhile some have had their differences of opinion with Tedward, the fact remains that he is the only one actively putting results oriented energy towards this.
I too feel that one person should not hold all the cards, but I personally am grateful that he's attempting this. And unless somebody else steps up to his level of intention, he will be the spearhead.
How about if everybody who wants to see this happen lays down both sword and shield and we all work toegther for the common good?
And then once we get everything lined up, we can light up and see who's really walkin' the walk. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Wed, October 26, 2005 - 9:17 PMRyan, I'm gonna learn contact staff just so i can take you on with swords and staff... :)
Yeah, sorry, the last couple of days my head's been polluted with flu and NyQuil. I haven't been able to make coherant arguements or even read more than a cparagraph or two without skimming. I thought about slacking, but the momentum needs to keep up, or this simply will not happen. There's a lot of red tape involved with something like this (As our regional team might tell ya) and we might need a full 6 months to pull it off right. nove 1 is six months from June 1.
Suffice to say:
I'm in for safety.
I'd like big prizes (and a lot of them) but I donn't want to let a corporation dictate terms.
I like this promoter, and I think he'll dig what we have so far.
People need to grab others in the community, the more heavy hitters now, the fewer the cat fights later.
We need to cover everything as quick as possible, so if you have a toll or competition you'd like to see, start a thread.
I'm in all the way if I think people will want to do this, but I won't put up with too much direct abuse about it.
Sorry for imagining abuse that wasn't there.
Why not start with a statement of intent? rif and Glitter seem to be on the same page, Vatra, can you get together with glitter (and anyonne else geographcally convenient) and whip up a rough draft together? Post it here when you get something, please.
I need a nap. -
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this is gonna be long!
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 1:41 AMFirst let me say that this has been one of the most thought-provoking discussions I have encountered on tribe to date. Thank you Vatra, GlitterGirl, and Ted-War (and everyone else who chimed in) for your honest attempts to discuss the big issues behind a major development in this amazing art form.
I would love to hear about how everyone imagines what the fire community might look like in the future. Think about it! This is a very fundamental question that can help to shape the future that we are creating:
-Do we want to increase the popularity of the flow arts?
This seems like the most basic and the most critical question to discuss. As someone new to the flow arts, I have noticed lots of mixed reactions when I tell people that I have started spinning poi. The folks in the fire community have always been friendly to me, but often they also groan and moan about the growing popularity of fire dancing. I get the clear picture that many people would like the flow arts to stay well underground and completely non-commercialized. Other people I’ve met have the desire to practice this art form professionally, which requires a steady stream of people who want to pay to watch and/or practice the flow arts. Maybe it wouldn’t be so heinous to have Flow arts taught in mini-malls across the country! Martial arts studios flourish all over the place and I get the impression (having never actually been in one) that they can be a very positive outlet for people who wouldn’t otherwise be exposed to such a discipline. I know it’s done wonders for my hyperactive 11-year-old cousin! Don’t get me wrong; I’m not all for hyper-commercialization! I’m simply suggesting that we honestly explore what different futures might look like.
Do we want to develop a performing art structure that would allow performers to practice this professionally (a competition might fit into this category)?
If we agree that we want to develop a way for people who want to make this art their profession, then we need to think about what that means. Right now there are so many fire dancers who are more than happy to perform for free that many performers don’t get paid for their performance. Vatra said openly that he “would continue to do [poi] if I was never paid” yet I happen to know that he would like to spend more of his time being paid to do what he loves. How can we make this happen? What might this look like? Realistically, outside of Burning Man there is commerce everywhere. Where you draw the line of “selling out” is so personal! Are you ok with being paid to perform at a party that is sponsored by red bull? What about a corporate-sponsored event like Xingolati (which was sponsored by Carnival Cruise lines)? How about on MTV? A commercial circus? What sacrifices are you willing to make for your career? For the fire community? What if an organic herb company was doing the sponsorship instead of Budweiser?
This tribe may not be the forum for these big discussions, since it seems to be focused mainly on the specifics of one event (of which we know very little at this point). Since Ted-War hasn’t provided any approximate figures for budget or expected turnout, it’s hard to know whether this event would change the future of the fire arts community all over the world. It certainly could, or it could end up like FireDrums (no disrespect!) with a score and some prize money.
Thoughts?
>Vatra:
>For me, the line between professionalism and commercialization is taking >part in a public event that has corporate sponsorship, or receiving >compensation for a performance intended for commercial use (e.g. a >Mountain Dew commercial).
>GlitterGirl:
>to me, there is no line. That said, I would much rather have REI sponsor >this event than budwiser.
>Ted-War:
>Who's calling the shots. If Budweiser gets a say in ANYthing other than safe >placement of their vendors, then I have a problem. If they're just serving >the beer, I'm happy.
And finally, my disclaimers:
I tend to play devil’s advocate, so don’t take it personally!
I am new to this community and this art form, but quite experienced with non-profit structures and art communities. I think a lot about these issues in my field (opera and performance art), and I’m always really curious to hear other people’s opinions. I see the heart of this discussion centering not around this particular competition, but rather around varying visions of the future of the art form.
My bias is towards figuring out how to influence the mass culture to slowly incorporate more substantive and spiritual elements. I feel sad sometimes that so many amazing, charismatic people are so inspired by Burning Man and other radical subcultures that they don’t even expose people outside of their community to their work. I am inspired by people like Alex Gray, Bjork, David Best and hell, even the Dalai Lama who have taken their conscious art and brought it to people who would never otherwise know about it! I am wary, however, of the effect that commercialization has on art. It’s tricky but important balance to strike.
Whew! -
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Intention!
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 4:30 AMExcellent post Ashley. It's refreshing to have a new perspective in a thread that's been ping-ponged by the same few people.
I thought what really stood out was the last half of your last paragraph. Especially the closing, which mentions striking a balance.
Striking a balance has been my motive from the outset. Yes, push our Art Form forward. Yes, present it to a broader audience beyond the Burner and Fire Communities. Yes, get paid to do it whenever possible... as long as it's not at the expense of your personal beliefs (e.g., if you're a vegan raw foodist and you accept payment for a McDonald's commercial). I would consider that "selling-out", unless maybe all of the payment was donated to a reputable charity.
Anyway, that's starting to turn into a 4:00am Yerba Mate tangent. So I'll leave it with a response to this...
>>"I am inspired by people like Alex Gray, Bjork, David Best and hell, even the Dalai Lama who have taken their conscious art and brought it to people who would never otherwise know about it!"<<
So am I, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've yet to see any of these individuals sponsored by a corporation.
>>"I am wary, however, of the effect that commercialization has on art."<<
So am I. I've been touting this since my first post. I guess it all boils down to which camp you belong to... Bjork or Britney Spears!
(Britney did Pepsi commercials)
All I'm saying here is.....
It IS possible to push the Art Form forward to the masses, WHILE getting paid to do it, WITHOUT commercializing the Art Form in the process!
It's all about choosing your battles,
or choosing your gigs,
or choosing your sponsors,
or *not* choosing sponsors! -
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Re: Intention!
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 10:42 AMI completely agree, Vatra!
I think this attempt at balance and mindfulness is the key to successfully taking this art form to the next level. Reading back through the older posts on this tribe, I am struck by the original idea behind this event, which is NOT to start a huge new movement in the art form (i.e. competitive fire dancing/flow arts) but rather to make a big fun profitable event that would be marketed beyond the fire community and make the badass performers involved some money doing what they love. It really doesn’t sound like corporate sponsorship to me, but rather a commercial event with some vending.
Tedward:
"a LARGE fire arts event"
"Lots of people means a lot of money available for payouts. A lot of us could walk away with a month's rent or more on this deal. "
"There will probably be concessions, small rides and other carnival type stuff at the event. I think that's how he pays he bills."
"One of the ideas was a competition, which I told him (based on discussions here at the time) was iffy at best. He also though the idea of bringing in a lot of theme camps and just hiring our troupe to provide fire would be okay too. I decided to see if others woud be interested in sharing this guy's enthusiasm."
May I suggest that this event may not be the most appropriate venue for the world’s first live fire arts competition? Maybe it should just be a party with some great performers and a carnival/family-oriented atmosphere? That could even be a better way to introduce people to fire arts than a competition, since most of the people I know who go to competitions already know and like the sport/art/whatever!
I think the idea of a competition could be a great way to develop the art form and give the top performers some valuable credibility to people who don’t know the community and don’t know what a badass GlitterGirl is, for example. But as Roger said, “why are we dealing with someone outside the community to promote this when so many people within the community are involved in putting on major events? At first this competition is going to be rough around the edges and maybe not so fun for your average Joe. If we start this ourselves, the way we want it to be done, we can be assured of more control during the critical gestation period. I agree with Roger:
>”It would be much better to grow it organically, and work within the >community to begin with. Let's get some of the kinks out of the system >before you start putting it on as a show.”
Any volunteers? Vatra?
And finally,
>>"I am inspired by people like Alex Gray, Bjork, David Best and hell, even the Dalai Lama who have taken their conscious art and brought it to people who would never otherwise know about it!"<<
>So am I, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've yet to see any of these >individuals sponsored by a corporation.
True, none of them are directly sponsored by large corporations, but they do all appear at commercial events that contain corporate sponsorship or accept money from large corporations. (Of course the Dalai Lama doesn't keep any of the money he makes, being a Buddhist monk and all.)
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 5:05 AMTedward:
I have worked with you in the past. I will remind you of Fire conclave convergence villa for BM 2004. You lied to all of us prior to arriving on the playa and said you and your crew had completed two pieces of the shade structure which were not complete when we arrived. We then spent our time assembling the two completed pieces of the structure.
As a result of that experience when you couldn't even own up to the truth in the moment, I do not trust you to 1. Be your word and 2. Manage effectively. This is not pre-judgment. This is widsom. Once bitten, shame on you. Twice bitten, shame on me. I come from a personal responsibility model so I am taking responsibility for my experience.
as for a "joke" about cirque, i was unclear it was a joke. As for Anah, i view this whole thing differently. I believe fire is a vehicle to the art form but the art really lies beneath. Sure, fire performance is great. But the best fire artists _i've_ ever seen are actually "flow" artists, not just fire artists. They don't rely on the fire to create the show... rather, the fire enhances the beauty of the flow art. Anah is a flow artist IMO. She is an amazing flow artist. What i want to see is the promotion of flow arts to the world. if ever there were a religion i would follow, it woudl be Flow because for me, experiencing Flow is experiencing God. I see fire as a way to bring flow arts forward to the population.
Feel better. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 11:24 AMI for one, have been craving an event that drew the top talents and personalities for a long time. We share (at least for a while) a very unique hobby/artform/passion, and we 're all so far flung and scattered all over.
I didn't get to meet or see hardly any of you this burn. No Vatra at all, only saw Roger in a grocery store, Musashii came over just long enough to put one of my own swords to my throat, (next time I'm carrying my shield around you. ;) ) the Wildfire boyz blew my mind then had to leave without time to share skills. And let's not even go into how much my world now feels a little incomplete knowing the likes of Gigi, Glitter and Ashley exist without me getting to hang with them on a regular basis.
A gathering of some sort would stoke me greatly. If it takes a structure and prize money to create that, then that in itself would be enough for me to support a competition. Especially if everybody is more intent on connecting more than competing. And tha should be easy in the begining, when the money isn't ridiculous. I love competition, but only if it's the healthy kind.
Right now, my ego seems to be down to the point I really wouldn't care how i did or if I won anything. The hanging out sounds like enough for at least this moment.
Rif.
I -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 11:36 AMRif:
come to firedrumz next year!!! it was an amazing gathering of mostly west coast artists (of which i believe you are one) and it was about fun and fire (and not so much about drums this last time) and was a blast for at least me. Musashii, Vatra, Roger and I were all there; i can not speak for Ashley or Gigi as i am not certain one way or the other if they were.
I have felt the same desire you have for gathering the tribe together. BM is too crazy to effectively make it happen. Firedrums has been good the last two years. I anticipate it will be HUGE this year and thanks for Sky for pushing that forward. Not for profit community gathering that allows us to share with each other. though, by all reports i've heard, a bit intimidating for the "new kids on the block" which is unfortunate... and a part of life.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 1:49 PMFrom Roger's post:
"It would be much better to grow it organically, and work within the >community to begin with. Let's get some of the kinks out of the system >before you start putting it on as a show.”
From Rif's post:
"A gathering of some sort would stoke me greatly. If it takes a structure and prize money to create that, then that in itself would be enough for me to support a competition. Especially if everybody is more intent on connecting more than competing. <snip> The hanging out sounds like enough for at least this moment. "
This begs the question: is it the right time to stage such an event targeted to a "mainstream" audience? Why not just have it be a community thing that we do amongst ourselves? Jugglers and yo-yo enthusiasts have conventions (with competitions involved), so why can't we? If we want prize money there could be an entry fee or something that all gets pooled and divied up among the winners. If the mainstreaming of the art happens, let it happen on its own, does the community really need or want to make a conscious choice and concerted effort to make it happen?
I'm not advocating one way or the other. I'm interested as a flowster who is quite serious about developing my skills and pushing the envelope of what can be done with our tools -- in my case, poi. I enjoy performing but have no aspirations of being a professional. If anything, I seem to be drawn to the flow as meditation model; becoming a monk/master of poi rather than a rockstar. I know I'm not the only one, though I suspect there are few of us, relatively speaking. So for people who share my attitude/perspective, whether or not the competition thing happens, whether or not the art becomes "mainstream" (whatever the hell that means anyway) is kind of irrelevant. But for those out there who are more performers than 'zen-sters' it's highly relevant, as everyone knows.
So as someone who perhaps has less of a personal stake than many others posting, but is nevertheless deeply invested in the art itself, I'd urge patience & caution.
Just because an opportunity is presenting itself now doesn't mean it needs to be taken. Just because it's not taken now doesn't mean it can't be taken in the future.
I really look forward to meeting those of you I haven't yet met. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 3:46 PMI like this. A lot. Something for/by/of us. I'd be much more motivated to travel to an event where I can jam with some of you folks and get to know you than get up on a stage and compete against you (which I wouldn't do, because I'm not *that* good).
I have a friend here in Austin who has been threatening to put together a firedancer's campout for a long time. Clearly the idea has legs. This need not be an either/or with the Tedward's competition, but I sure as hell know which I'd choose. -
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fire dancing campout
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 4:11 PM>I have a friend here in Austin who has been threatening to put together >a firedancer's campout for a long time
I think the thing Chad was helping pull together in the Northeast was a good start in addition to the firedrums gatherings of the last two years. a mid country regional one would be nice as well.
I wanted to go to the one in the northeast but didn't have the resources to do it at the time (can't just shut the school down that close to burning man!)...
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 4:42 PMWell put Khan!
Khan wrote:
>>"...I'd urge patience & caution. Just because an opportunity is presenting itself now doesn't mean it needs to be taken. Just because it's not taken now doesn't mean it can't be taken in the future."<<
Ashley wrote:
>>"May I suggest that this event may not be the most appropriate venue for the World's first live fire arts competition? Maybe it should just be a party with some great performers and a carnival/family-oriented atmosphere? That could even be a better way to introduce people to fire arts than a competition, since most of the people I know who go to competitions already know and like the sport/art/whatever!"<<
Roger wrote:
>>"...I'm concerned about exploitation. There are many examples of arguments that have erupted after events -- where people feel exploited by promoters, sponsors, the media, etc. There are years-long battles for rights to this or that aspect of events. So why are we dealing with someone outside the community to promote this when so many people within the community are involved in putting on major events?"<<
These 3 quotes exemplify many of the thoughts expressed in my early posts in this thread. Is a mainstream promoter from outside the fire community the best choice for the World's first Fire Arts Competition? Especially when there are promoters within the community capable of bringing this to potentially just as big of an audience.
I'm *not* suggesting to abort a fire *event* with this promoter.
I'm *not* suggesting to abort a Fire Arts Competition altogether.
I do however feel that the opportunity presented by Lobster Man is *not* the best option for the World's first Fire Arts Competition. Especially considering the projected audience's level of understanding and appreciation (or lack there of) of the finer technical merits which would be judged in a competition. I think this would be a far better venue for fire performances.
One benefit to this direction is... Performance rather than Competition would provide more variety and entertainment value for the projected audience. Imagine group choreography, multi-tool partner routines, etc., etc. With performance, there would not be the limitations of competition categories or judging parameters which would restrict the presentation options that a contest would.
Another benefit is... Everyone would get paid, not just the winners, and everyone would still get to show off their best stuff in front of a huge crowd!
Yet another benefit... Avoiding the potential negative attributes that a competition atmosphere often brings. Not to mention the possible criticism everyone involved may possibly receive from those in the global fire community who are opposed to competition or who are speculative as to the validity of this competition.
Does anyone else want to chime in on other benefits to steering this particular Lobster Man event into a Fire Performance Exhibition rather than a Competition??? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 5:02 PM
Kinda like a coming out party?
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 5:10 PMhey guys. well i'm the one who's been wanting to do the campout here in tx. i have dreams of pulling in the people from the worlwide community who i feel have important things to teach and doing a festival oriented toward workshops and performances, sort of like the European Jugging Convention format, which is the best event i've been to personally.
a few years ago someone tried to organize a fire olympics and they actually shelved it due to overwhelming negative response to the competitive aspect. i personally am not afraid of competition, but i think that a STRONG intention of sportsmanship must be present for obvious reasons.
i feel that what is needed more than competition is a worlshops and performance oriented festival. but i certainly don't mind laying the smack down and taking home a trophy ;)
i hate to say it due to possible hurt ego responses but i simply don't feel that the spinner community as a whole is advanced enough to make interesting marketable competition feasible.
even most of the the so called "masters" are still in the early phases of presentation refinement and tech incorporation. there's still a way to go before the competitors are ready, IMHO.
i feel that wht would happen is people would add up points and go for a routine that will win them the competition, rather than present their art in an unadulterated form, which is how people would shine the most i feel, and further the art for everyone. i know i can do ALL those so called "hard" moves but my best moments are the ones in which i'm belly dancing, etc. while doing _fairly_ tech stuff. staying away from emphasising the technical is a positive step i think.
figure skating in the olympics is judged on points, but the competitions with open formats are where the true art is happening.
i simply can't post this w/o saying that Ashley should attend as i plan on sweeping her off of her cute little feet ;) -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 8:03 PMI wouldn't miss it, Arashi!
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this event may not be the right situation for a competition.
The way I see it:
-The idea of making this art form competitive is a pretty new one and will need some time to really work in a way that we can be satisfied with.
-While those kinks are being worked out, it would be better to not be dealing with making a large profit (or with a promoter from outside the community).
-The logical next step is to have more commercial (but hopefully not evil)events that PAY performers (like Lobsterman's event), and more gatherings/workshops where fire performers can come together and have these discussions. And light shit on fire, of course.
- Out of these community-based events, we could allow a competition to grow out of the public eye until it was mind-blowing enough to make it THE most epic experience ever. Or something.
If anyone is having trouble making the destinction between evil corporations and not so evil ones, may I politely suggest renting the film "Pootietang" for an in depth discussion of the issue of selling out. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 8:56 PMYeah, I think throwing the World's first Fire Arts Competition under these circumstances kinda sounds like one of those overly, beyond technical "ugly" Poi moves.
Or, in Mike Icon's words... "just because you can, doesn't mean you should!" -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 9:12 PMwell, i'm not sure i agree. what came up with the whole fire-lympics thing was that there does need to be a forum created, but that there should be a spirit of camaraderie at the forefront. why throw this idea away, when ted is willing to make it happen, and is open to collaboration? ted, i will do anything i can to help. which admittedly won't be significant esp. because i plan on competing before all the newbies get better than me in a year ;)
do you know any fire dancers with enough $$ to pull this off? there aren't any, or it'd be done already. bring on the (decent) corporations!! i love paychecks, and there is no doubt that my intentions are spiritual and aesthetic. but the co. will want a cut unless you go non profit with it and make sponsorship tax deductible.
"these circumstances?" could you clarify? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 9:28 PMThanks arashi, but i think I see the way the group mind it turning.
I originally built this tribe to test the waters for a competition. Clearly, almost everyone wants one, just not offered on a silver platter, not by me, not done now. This tribe has created more strife than it's worth to me to keep going, even if there were many more people, like you, willing to make it happen. I thought there might be a way to make 70-80% of the community OK with some plan or another and present that plan to a promoter who has a legal venue, the time and the inclination to help us. Neither seems possible right now.
We'll end up going with his original plan, I think, and take a piece of burningman to the public.
For the record, I too now believe that this community to too young for an event of this nature and that the alliances built by parties such as "global warming", "fire drums", and Crimson's new fire festival will continue to advance the art. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 9:47 PMthat's too bad dude. i just want to say that you shouldn't let this one interaction kill your drive. i know that out of anyone actually getting shit done for the community your name is up there. i think you should keep it going and don't worry about the fear of competition out there. besides anyone who thinks that the fire community is above such things is delusional, it's a bunch of performers!! i say that as an outsider to "the scene" who is also repsected in many ways, but stays outside because of the competition. competition is there, but the intention of the event doesn't have to be focused on that. you could even through the spirit of the "competition" bring the whole art form ABOVE the competition that is already here.
but i do agree... this fire thing is still young and any wushu artist could light their stick/chain whip/ sword etc. on fire and take the money home w/o breaking a sweat. much less if jill parker shows up with a fire staff and just dances with it in her hands ;)
on the other hand, i do feel that a festival with workshops is the ultimate way to go. check out EJC!!! -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 9:53 PM>>"these circumstances?" could you clarify?<<
Certainly, just scroll up 8 posts higher in this thread and read (or re-read) the post that I submitted earlier today @ 4:42 PM.
It quotes Khan, Ashley & Roger who all seem to support what I'm suggesting in that post, and also the post you're inquiring about. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 10:02 PMahh. i see. IOW you feel that the other things that are being put together fill this need in the fire arts world? cuz i'm feelin a need!
those are all fabulous reasons and i agree wholeheartedly with them but i don't think any of them negate the positive aspects of ted holding this event, which haven't really been brought up. just think how much more people would practice if there were 15 grand sitting at the end of a rainbow? esp. if actually dancing were part of the judging criteria? there are posoitive sides to this, such as forcing people to see the postitive sides of not just shuffling about with terrible poise while doing tricks, and offering opportunities to spinners who aren't interested in having a career in performing.
i'm sure there are more, but i think the "devil's advocate" attitude can be taken too far, and so i'm D. A. ing your D. A.
can you fill us non west coasters in on what other options there are, with crimson's thing etc.? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 11:03 PMWhoa, Arsashi... you know I luv you, and you're my boy (you being a fellow Pyronaut and all), but your abbreviations are *way* beyond my scope of imagination ;^)
>>"IOW" and "D. A. ing your D. A."<< Ummm..... huh???????
By the way, for those of you who don't know... Arashi has been spinning Poi for over 11 years now! So, when he refers to "newbies", he's basically talking about almost everyone who isn't him ;^) -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 11:17 PMIOW In other words, and d.a. devil's advocate
i think it's more like 10 btw
(by the way)
started off doin other fire stuff, that's where your 11# is from
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 2:18 PM> this fire thing is still young and any wushu artist could light their stick/>chain whip/ sword etc. on fire and take the money home w/o breaking >a sweat. much less if jill parker shows up with a fire staff and just >dances with it in her hand
by _your_ standards. I'm not sure everyone here would agree... that is, some people do not value dance the way you or i might and are far more interested in other things i'm not clear on. I had a conversation with Vatra the other day where he indicated that of a certain set of performances we both witnessed, what would be his clear winner and IMO, they weren't dancing at all really and other people who were were far more interesting to me.
so it all depends on how you look at it, what your filters are for the moment and what you value in the experience. which is why there would need to be clear criteria to make this fair. IMO.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 2:13 PMTed-War,
I'm not even sure you're reading these posts anymore, but I don't want you to leave this situation feeling bad about the way this tribe has gone.
Please don't be discouraged by the discussions that have been taking place! I think EVERYONE has been clear that they would be thrilled to have a big fire event take place that would allow high-level performers to come together (and be paid) while also introducing people new to the art form to the amazing world of fire dancing! If, as you said earlier, this event will be targeted towards people outside of the fire community, then let's make it an introduction not to be forgotton!
I really hope that expressing my reservations about turning this specific event into the first fire arts competition hasn't taked all of the wind out of your sails. You seemed so excited about creating something beyond Burning Man, so why just "end up going with his original plan, I think, and take a piece of burningman to the public"? Are there no options besides creating a mini-Burning Man or a full on fire arts competition? Why not produce the event you are dreaming of, without the competition aspect and then see how it goes?
This community may well be "to too young for an event of this nature" (I know I am!) but that doesn't mean you can be a positive force in guiding the growth of the art form and creating positive opportunities for performers to come together and get paid!
Ashley (aka Pollyanna)
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Thu, October 27, 2005 - 11:50 PM>Does anyone else want to chime in on other benefits to steering this >particular Lobster Man event into a Fire Performance Exhibition rather >than a Competition???
How about this one: it would be more fun!!! that in combination with being more community building sounds great.
And, tedward was pretty clear he would only open it up to his local folks so, i am not imagining this is the direction _this_ event will go in. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 1:39 AM>>"i think it's more like 10 btw... started off doin other fire stuff, that's where your 11# is from"<<
Oh yeah, that's right. I also had 11 in my head because that's how long your troupe-mate Sage has been spinning Poi. She told me she'd been spinning for about a year when we each went to our first Burning Man way back in 1995.
>>"can you fill us non west coasters in on what other options there are, with crimson's thing etc.?"<<
The 5 big Fire Arts events I see on the horizon in the coming year are Burning Man's "Fire Festival" (SF, march-ish), FireDrums (Santa Cruz, April-ish), Burning Flipside (Austin, Memorial Day weekend), The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" (July-ish), Burning Man (BRC, week up to Labor Day).
There's also the other Burning Man Regional events and BM Decompressions all over the World throughout the year.
Does anyone else know of any upcoming Fire Arts events??? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 4:29 AMbut none of those events offer anything to the entertainers unless they are buddied up and get grants!
esp BM... don't get me wrong i love BM, but it is not at all about paying fire dancers! in fact it costs me a great deal of money to go perform and "spread the art"
ted's trying to actually pay them! and well! esp if say the top 15 were rewarded... i bet that's really about as many as would be paid anyways.
and what's more, actually paying the performers will bring out the best in their performance cause they won't be in a drug filled haze from the previous evening's debauchery. or is it just me? ;)
seriously. i am actually getting disturbed that this great opportunity for people is getting shot down because of your(our) love for BM. i could argue that music festival dancers, circus performers, and tribal dancers have done far more for fire dancing than BM has, so why should BM get all the fun? (and money?)
i could even argue that BM is a major reason that fire has become LESS sacred and MORE commercialised. i could argue the point that NOT paying the performers keeps the really good ones from doing their thing as much. i could argue all these things, to try and be the D.A. [ ;) ]
but in the end i feel like another chance to make this thing happen will be shot down because of the preconceptions put before it by people. if we are such a spiritual bunch, then won't THAT shine through? i fear that really the truth would come out- that "spiritually" we are just a cross section of society like any other. so hang it all and let's make it actually sustain somebody besides people who get grants for being hardcore burners!
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 6:03 AMFuck all this chat: Just come to Play 2006 if ya want to meet up and play!
www.playfestival.co.uk/modules/page/ -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 9:19 AMTed, I personally hope you don't give up on this. And i know you know this, but no matter what you create, somebody ain't gonna like it.
If you build it, they will spin.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 2:36 PMin response to:
>>"none of those events offer anything to the entertainers unless they are buddied up and get grants!"
"let's make it actually sustain somebody besides people who get grants for being hardcore burners!"
"if say the top 15 were rewarded... i bet that's really about as many as would be paid anyways."<<
I never said anything about BM needing to be involved. I just thought that it would be preferable for the World's first Fire Arts Competition to be produced by a promoter from within our community, and to not just jump on the first outside opportunity merely because it's there.
IMO, if you're going to be the first to present a relatively underground Art Form in a controversial (to some) competition format to the public, then forethought, patience, and caution should be exuded as to avoid potential exploitation.
Here's a positive example. The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" in Oakland, CA is an amazing event that's been running for 5 straight years now. Approximately 10,000 people were in attendance throughout the event. To my knowledge, ALL of the performers (and there was a shit load of them) were PAID! They also had loads of large scale light & fire art installations, ALL of which were paid to be there as well.
I heard they spent over $40,000 on entertainment alone, but best of all IMO, is that The Crucible is a non-profit organization that just happens to be in our community. It's primarily a school for industrial arts, and also for flow/fire and other arts. They built their Fire Arts Festival from the ground up from within the community which eventually transcended into pulling in attendants from outside the community.
No "shortcuts" or "sell-outs" took place here!
Exactly like Rogers suggestion:
>>"It would be much better to grow it organically, and work within the community to begin with. Let's get some of the kinks out of the system before you start putting it on as a show.”<<
more info @ thecrucible.org -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Fri, October 28, 2005 - 4:43 PMOops, I posted my response back a ways by accident.
Scroll up if you're curious..... -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 2:19 AM<<Here's a positive example. The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" in Oakland, CA is an amazing event that's been running for 5 straight years now. Approximately 10,000 people were in attendance throughout the event. To my knowledge, ALL of the performers (and there was a shit load of them) were PAID! They also had loads of large scale light & fire art installations, ALL of which were paid to be there as well.>>
Um....juuust for the record, when we played Fire Arts, we did huge fire bars, 4 propane mortars, drove up from Los Angeles with a 24ft stakebed truck for the stages we donated, spent over 2 grand, and at the end of the night were paid something like $200. So yes, we were paid, but I don't think anyone got much money.
Personally, I prefer the old skool fire-play gatherings rather than a paid competition, mainly because most of the kickass performers I know have much the same mindset as a mellow longboarder vs a xtreme-games shortboarder. Neither is better or worse, just different mindset and style.
As far as commercialism goes, well, Rif's right Ted...you'll never please everyone, and I know of many in our community that would totally get into something like this.
When I saw the Yahoo commercial with the girl fire breather I did cring a bit....mainly because I feared some kid trying to learn how to firebreath through an internet search while yodeling ya-hoooooooooo.
Keep healthy everyone!
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 4:49 AM>Here's a positive example. The Crucible's "Fire Arts Festival" in Oakland, >CA is an amazing event that's been running for 5 straight years now. >Approximately 10,000 people were in attendance throughout the event. >To my knowledge, ALL of the performers (and there was a shit load of >them) were PAID! They also had loads of large scale light & fire art >installations, ALL of which were paid to be there as well.
Vatra: didn't clearchannel sponsor the event?
isn't that commercialization? are you okay with that? -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 11:36 AMCLEAR CHANNEL!?!?!?!
dude i'm sorry but that is like THE WORST CORPORATION EVER and every argument you have put forth is holding no water!!! i respect you though, so i'm still listening.
aside from the fear of ego maniacs and competition, which we have projected onto an event which doesn't exist, and which already exist in our culture and could be influenced to the contrary, i'm still waiting to hear a good retort.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 12:30 PM>i'm still waiting to hear a good retort.
I believe competition is a natural byproduct of the sport aspect of Poi. sure it is a meditation... and an art form... and a primal experience... and... a whole bunch of other things ... including a sport.
That said, if we are going to honor the artists and athletes within each of us, it is imperative that we create a system within which judging criteria and sportsmanship are clearly understood, as unbias as our bias selves can create, with an eye for balance on all the elements that make this experience what it is.
As you said earlier, I'm not sure the community is mature enough for that.
Even if we _could_ come to consensus [which i find challenging to believe to begin with] and we had a judging system say, like ice skating, how many judges really exist capable of watching a performance and effectively distinguishing the moves/combos/tricks at as fast and accurate a rate as the performer is moving through them? Simply put: if you can't track what's going on -- i.e., lack of eye for it, lack of knowledge of enough moves, lack of comprehension of the differentiation between moves -- how can you judge it?
this is my concern. As someone who teaches poi full time -- that means that my job fundamentally focuses on recognizing the structure of a move/combo/trick, understanding how to break it down and then explain it to lots of people who learn in lots of different ways... which means i am really looking hard and recognizing a _lot_ of stuff -- I am absolutely certain there are moves i don't know that some of you do that i might be unable to distinguish. I'm not going to say i know more than everyone else or anything like that...
And, i feel fairly comfortable saying that I can recognize more moves/patterns/combos/tricks than a _significant_ number of people in the poi community. If i do not feel qualified, and I believe i have an understanding of what qualified means in this context, I truly wonder how many people are out there who are actually qualified to do the judging.
I guess what i'm saying is we'd have to train judges before they'd even be ready to do this competition service.
this is the aspect of maturation i think we're lacking in the community. We haven't fully established structures (ha -- barely at that) within the art form that we agree upon. I mean, 10 people will define a move 10 different ways. How are we then expected to effectively rate things fairly when we don't have a mutually understood system we agree upon?
What we're talking about here is a fundamental challenge. so even if everything else really did line up right, who is going to judge?
and By what standard and to whom?
this is fundamental to the experience. If we all have different expectations and understandings of things, we are speaking different languages with no translater and that is a recipe for disaster IMO. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 1:13 PMVatra, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Clear Channel donates ad space to the crucible for a tax deduction. That's a little different than sponsorsip!
Because of this arangement, the crucible gets *fantastic* visibility, which helps to make their events as successful as they are.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 1:29 PMActually, that's the definition of sponsorship.
>>sponsor (n.)
1651, from L.L. sponsor "sponsor in baptism," in L. "a surety, guarantee," from sponsus, pp. of spondere "give assurance, promise solemnly" (see spondee). Sense of "person who pays for a radio (or, after 1947, TV) program" is first recorded 1931. The verb is attested from 1884, "to favor or support;" commercial broadcasting sense is from 1931.<<
- Source www.etymonline.com
Clearchannel is paying for [Radio/TV/billboards] but instead of promoting themselves, they promote the Crucible (a non-profit entity) and take the write off. Typically this means that they can charge themselves premium rates for ad space that isn't currently in use and everybody wins (except the IRS) -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 2:31 PMYup yup, that's the way it works. But my understanding of sponsorship is a little more specific:
(From Wikipedia)
To sponsor something is to support an event, activity, person or organization by providing money or other resources in exchange for something, *usually advertising or publicity, and always access to an audience.* (emphasis added)
Sponsorship may be an arrangement to exchange advertising for the responsibility of funding a popular event or entity. For example, a corporate entity may provide equipment for a famous athlete or sports team in exchange for brand recognition. The sponsor earns popularity this way while the sponsored can save a lot of money. This type of sponsorship is prominent in sports and television. Many companies want their logo on sponsored equipment in return. Formula One teams, for example, have heavily relied on the income from tobacco advertising.
People may sponsor an individual or group of people to undertake a fundraising task, usually for a charity or other cause requiring funding.
I understand that sponsorship is an arrangement where the donor (clearchannel) gets visibility and good pr in exchange for goods/services/money. Was clearchannel visible at the Fire Arts Festival or on the Crucible's materials? That would make the difference. (And I don't know, I was out of the country.) Because the crucible is a non-profit, they try to get everything possible donated. I believe this qualifies as just a tax-deductible donation.
Am I splitting hairs? Or does this make sense? I can't tell, I'm feeling sicky sick. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 5:43 PMI think it would be the donation, but in the strictest sense, donations of goods or services is alo a form of sponsorship. Such silent sponsorships ususally request annotation like the 2004 sponsors got on the Crucible's page. Budweiser and Phillip morris may be better positioned in Nascar, but they pay dearly for those banners too.
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 1:50 PMyes, it is a large task, but don't you think that defining those things and coming up with a way to judge them can have many benefits, not the least of which is to set forth a standard of language for the worldwide community?
as far as moves go, i think that obstacle could be overcome with each competitor coming up with a "set list" as they do in gymnastics competition. that would take out the guesswork on what the move is and at that point you can just watch for cleanliness and execution style. IOW yes the judges would need to be trained but i think that we could train some poi judges in a week. i can do just about every tech move with poi imaginable, and all they'd need would be a visual of the move, and an understanding of what makes it different from anything else, and from there it really is all in the execution and how aesthetically it is placed in the routine. there is no doubt that this is a large task, but the benefits for the community are vast! not the least of which is training the competitors to understand more advanced comcepts liek these. you could even split up the judging, like a spinner for tech, a dancer like jill parker for choreography, and a gymnast or a baton twirler for overall execution, a juggler for geekiness, etc. ;)
i'd even go so far as to say that the few folks that are qualified to judge could be paid to NOT compete and be the judges, and even perform at some point. really there's maybe 5 poi people out there that i know that i feel are qualified to work on it. i'm sure there's more. but in the end it may be worth it to pay the "best" to be the judges and let them direct the course for the rest. with an eye on the prize, though, the hard part could be finding people who'd judge instead of going for it! -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 3:57 PM>yes, it is a large task, but don't you think that defining those things and >coming up with a way to judge them can have many benefits, not the >least of which is to set forth a standard of language for the worldwide >community?
LOL. yes, i do. I have been working on this for years, actually. the challenge is that everyone wants to use their model (or lack of model) as the structure to base it on and, maturation wise, we haven't learned (yet) how to agree on a common structure. of course, a poi summit would make this a lot more possible rather than on line.
>as far as moves go, i think that obstacle could be overcome with each >competitor coming up with a "set list" as they do in gymnastics >competition.
Then you're requiring choreography in advance if the set list is in order... that seems somewhat limiting to those who don't do choreography. And, yes, there are ways around it... training being step one.
>IOW yes the judges would need to be trained but i think that we could >train some poi judges in a week.
I'll defer to your widsom on this. I woud like to think your accurate. I know i have had the challenge of people who are new to polyrhythmics having the ability to name the patterns (or even the location of the poly in terms of the move). That said, maybe they were not at a high enough level of skill. A week is a long time though and the more advanced people can be trained, i'm sure.
>but the benefits for the community are vast! not the least of which is >training the competitors to understand more advanced comcepts liek >these.
i am not saying we can't or shouldn't do it. And, if it is to be done, we have to figure out how we're going to make it possible. I really don't think we can hash this whole thing out on a computer screen without some voices and physical proximity. it is too big an issue -- too much scope.
>the hard part could be finding people who'd judge instead of going for it!
Hmm... i'm not so sure. I'd be willing to judge in individuals (after proper training) if i could compete in group choreography. I'm guessing that can go both ways.
re the people you think can do it, are they into it?
and then, of course, back to the reality of:
by what standard and to whom do we create the judging criteria?
I think a master list of moves with point values and a set that is required to include X points to score an 8 of 10, x+something for a 9 of 10 and so on.
the master list... omg. . . that's a lot of man hours of work to generate.
It would be soooooo awesome to have. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 7:51 PMWOW... I sign off tribe for 24 hours and I'm already behind on a major response. Sorry I'm late, but I didn't want to appear as if I ducked this accusation...
>>"CLEAR CHANNEL!?!?!?!"
"dude i'm sorry but that is like THE WORST CORPORATION EVER and every argument you have put forth is holding no water!!!"<<
I agree that Clear Channel is probably the worst corporation ever! Thanks to deregulation, they've been able to buy so many radio stations across the US, that they're actually able to threaten freedom of speech (e.g., Howard Stern) which IMO, is absolutely inexcusable!
However, that does *not* negate "every argument [I] have put forth". For one thing, many of my arguments were agreed with by many others in this thread... e.g., Roger, Ashley, Khan, Isa, and even you! Furthermore, I did *not* detail The Crucible's Fire Arts Festival in response to a sponsorship argument. I detailed it as an example of a quality event produced by those from within our community that reached beyond our community.
In addition to radio stations, Clear Channel owns most of the bill-boards. Am I happy that The Crucible (being a non-profit looking for donations) accepted free advertising on Clear Channel's bill-boards? IMO as an idealist... NO, it doesn't sit right with me.
However, I am likely to grant them a bit more slack because they are a non-profit, and I certainly don't think it's as bad as branding the venue with corporate banners at the event itself, which The Crucible did *NOT* do! -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sat, October 29, 2005 - 8:01 PMYeah...Clear Channel is pretty rough.... they actually managed to get my favorite group of musicians banned from oak mountain ampitheatre in Birmingham, Alabama once they bought out the venue. That was their best show every single year. Not even the already huge fanbase could pressure the corporate controlled venue into changing the policy. -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sun, October 30, 2005 - 11:21 AMnot an accusation hunny bunny! just an offhand comment :) -
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Re: let's get down to brass tacks
Sun, October 30, 2005 - 1:13 PMClear Channel is a nasty coorporation, but this is a slimy world. If you were going to chose sponsorship and weed out the lowlifes, you'd have a pretty short list. Clear Channel has the power to make alot of shit happen, that's why they are what they are. What can ya do?
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