Suppose a person takes classes from a teacher, (this being their very first teacher ever), and from that teacher they learn a choreography specifically designed for performance... The teacher regularly performs this choreography with her student troupe in reasonably large venues, etc.
Now, this person decides to leave (perhaps not on the best of terms) and take classes from another teacher. This has been over six months ago, at least a year.
Is it ethical for said person to perform the teacher's choreography without the teacher's permission? (I'm feeling really, really hostile about this, but I need some opinions before I fly off the handle)
Now, this person decides to leave (perhaps not on the best of terms) and take classes from another teacher. This has been over six months ago, at least a year.
Is it ethical for said person to perform the teacher's choreography without the teacher's permission? (I'm feeling really, really hostile about this, but I need some opinions before I fly off the handle)
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:57 AMTo put it simply, no, I don't think it's ethical, especially if the teacher didn't specify that the choreography was free for the students to use whenever they felt like it. Not AS unethical as if this person were claiming the choreography as his/her own, and I'd give the person a few bonus points if they credited the teacher for the choreography, but still, performing a dance that is not a free dance for anyone to use without asking the teacher/creator's permission is bad ju-ju.
Sounds like someone out there needs to learn a little bit about the common courtesies of bellydance!
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:57 AMWhen I teach a choreography as part of a class, I teach it with the expectation that someone will perform it (assuming it's any good!). The people who take the class have paid for class and the knowledge within it, so if they take enough classes to learn the choreography, I consider it paid for by the student. I have also created choreographies as part of private lessons, and the price paid includes the dance taught.
If I teach troupe choreographies, I ask that they remain with the troupe (for troupe performances only) until they are retired or unless a troupe member asks to use it as a solo. In this instance, I'm just protecting the troupe from back-to-back performances of the same number.
My own solos are just that, my own, until I transmogrify them into troupe or class numbers. Usually that happens when I'm ready for a new solo!
Lots of words to mean, if you paid for class and were taught the choreography, imho you get to dance it! Properly attributed of course, since when you do your own, you will want all the compliments. -
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Sticky question
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:24 AMHmmm, a sticky question...
I think it is less a question of ethics, as it is of bad taste.
If someone comes to me to learn dance and I teach them a choreography over a few weeks, and they're paying for said class, they have paid to learn that choreography. Once it is in their head, it is theirs do with as they wish. As long as they credit me for the original work (so that it doesn't look like this brilliant choreo came from them) they are free to dance it if they like.
However...
What I would choreograph for myself would not be what I would choreograph for my students. Because they are students, I would choreograph to their knowledge and level. If they are so good that they are at MY level, they should be doing their own choreographing for class.
However, if someone it doing your stuff and they are no longer associated with you, it is kinda in bad taste. And really... how are people artists if they aren't creating their own works? -
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Re: Sticky question
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:59 AM1) They paid to learn the choreography so take it home and do with it what you will.
2) If I was the instructor... I would not care if you used my student choreographies and I would probably ask that drop outs never recommend me or advertise that they are doing my choreographies.
That's just me. I just expect student level dancers to require training wheels and not be walking advertisements for my classes. However if somebody ripped off one of my personal choreographies that I dance...
"Wow... how did all that bird shit get on your car?"
*Bird Seed~Bird Seed*
~*VibratingSpoon*~
(Job Thoughts for Slade.) -
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Re: Sticky question
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 1:36 PMAs far as I know, the choreography was taught by the teacher exclusively to students who wanted to perform as part of the student troupe. I do not believe (and I may be mistaken in this statement) that the choreography was ever taught in any kind of open-enrollment class.
The teacher dances with the members of the student troupe when it is performed, and it was originally choreographed as a duet with the teacher and another dancer.
On another note, it was not performed at a traditional belly dance venue, or in any event that was part of the belly dance community. It was performed on stage at a club as a part of a completely unrelated group's event.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:12 AMIf it was meant for performance but only under certain terms, those terms should be given from the get-go and made quite clear before teaching it.
I, personally, would not feel comfortable performing a choreography regularly done by another group...period. However, if it was not made clear under what conditions the choreo was to be performed and only that it was meant to be performed, then their primary obligation to the teacher is to give credit for it.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:12 AMI don't think it's ethical, and it may even be illegal from a copyright standpoint.
Copyright covers the "expression of an idea," which includes choreography.
It would be easy for the instructor to copyright her choreography and when she teaches it to state that it may not be used outside of her class performances. -
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:15 AMwww.copyright.gov/fls/fl119.html
"Choreography and pantomimes are also copyrightable dramatic works. Choreography is the composition and arrangement of dance movements and patterns usually intended to be accompanied by music."
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:26 AMpeople's evidence #1-A:
a video of the 2000 film "Bring It On"
hahaha case closed hahaha -
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 12:53 PMIt has come to pass that I teach choreos
the students demand them
its my work
but Im putting it together for them to perform
frankly thats the point of teaching a choreo
so that it is performed
credit would be nice
but....
I would just make sure it was the teacher choreo to begin with
I cant say howmany times Ive seen a teacher learn a dance from a video and then go teach it
give credit where credit is due
and if its a local group and a local performance the performer will just look like they are ripping the other dacer (instructor) off
and fromt that point right there I'd say dont do it, cause it will look like your bad
you'd be better off perfomring a piece from a video -
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 1:37 PMIt is definitely the teacher's original choreography.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 1:04 PMDancing someone's signature choreo is in poor taste.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 4:10 PMI think that if the teacher taught it to her student troupe for the specific use as part of their performances, no one should be performing it who is not in that student troupe. However, if the student learned it as part of a choreo class or other more open class, they paid to learn it and they can use it as they wish. Like Valizan said, credit is nice...but in my mind, any teacher who teaches a combo or choreo in a non-troupe class needs to understand that it will probably be used elsewhere without them, and that either they should learn to live with that or not teach choreo.
So...it depends on the situation. But from how you describe it, it sounds pretty shady on the student's part.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:22 AMI would say No to using the former teacher's choreography without permission. If it was a workshop teacher, it would be a different answer. They teach a choreography knowing it's you're going to use it (give credit where credit is due though).
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 4:25 AMIt depends on whether or not the teacher established proprietary rights by stating (preferably numerous times) that the choreography is for use by her students only and they are not permitted to perform said choreography without her express written permission. It may be a smart thing for all teachers to have that clause on the registration forms - so you have signed proof.
If not, then the student paid to learn the dance and while it may be in an ethical gray area, she did purchase the information and has the right to use it. This is implied for choreographies we learn from videos and workshops.
What you CAN do, is demand credit for your intellectual property. So if she performs your work, she must somehow let the audience know 'Choreographed by:' so go to all of her public performances and when she fails to give you credit, document and then take legal action (or at least have a lawyer send a saber rattling letter about it)
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 9:18 AMI was thinking about this the other day, seeing as how I recently left my dance school.
For me, I decided that performing my former teacher's choreographies would be in bad taste - even the ones that weren't bad in the first place :P It's not mine, so I wouldn't perform her stuff in public without her permission.
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Re: Is it theft? (Opinions on ethics needed)
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 6:54 PMMy Ex-teacher, yes ex-teacher, has never taught me a choreography of her own. I do well not to perform any of the choreography she has taught me simply because I don't even know who it belongs to! Now can you see why I say "Ex-teacher". And to think, this was all I had to learn from for the first 2 years.
I think that if a teacher does not want his/her students to perform the choreography learned in class: 1) only teach a choreography that you don't mind being taken out of class, or 2) State very clearly prior to teaching the choreography that it is not to be take out of class.