(This will be crossposted)

:(

I had an incident in one of my classes last week, and I've been stewing about it (because that is what I do. I don't let it go, I turn it inward and stew and it either comes out like vomit at the wrong time or it sits there like a big wad of swallowed bubble gum.)

I was teaching one of my classes which, natch, is all women. At the end of the class, I asked people to put their loaned tassle belts back into the bag I carry them in. One student took hers off, and as she was putting the belt in the bag said to me "You have a good night now, hear?" as she slapped my butt. And her hand was there just a bit too long for my comfort.

I was kinda shocked. The other students present registered some shock as well.

My reaction was to turn and say politely but loudly "if I were a male student with a female teacher, THAT kind of behaviour would NOT be tolerated. Please don't violate my personal space again!"

She flushed red with embarrassment and I immediately felt really bad. All of a sudden I thought I had maybe made a bigger issue out of nothing. It wasn't like she jumped me and ripped all my clothes off. But at the same time, she made me uncomfortable.

So...

This week I taught again. She was in class and smiling. We do a warm-up at the beginning of class where we lift our chest. I was counting it when I looked in the mirror and this same woman was grabbing her boobs and lifting them with her hands (as opposed to using her muscles to lift them).

My mouth fell open and I gasped loudly, but before I could say anything one of the other students called her on it.

"WHAT are you doing? You don't use your hands to lift them, you are supposed to be using your back muscles. THAT just looks rude!!"

Girlfriend flushed red again. "I just wanted to see if they would go any higher, because he can lift his chest really high. I didn't think anyone could see me."

Other student: "We're in a studio surrounded by mirrors and you're in front... we can ALL see you!"

This time Girlfriend apologized for disrupting the class and promised not to do so again. At the end of class, she came up to me and I sort of cringed because I was now afraid of what she was going to say.

"I just wanted to say, I really enjoy this class. It makes me feel great and I love this style."

All I did was smile, but I am worried that I should apologize for humiliating her in class. Am I wrong here?
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Valizan
online Valizan
Toronto
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  • Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 12:13 PM
    No way. Do not apologize. What she did was wrong and uncalled for, and would get her into trouble in any other professional setting, so why give her liberties in the dance class? Had anyone (male or female) done that to me, I would be tempted to tell them they are no longer welcome in my class, but I REALLY dislike being touched so I tend to get oversensitive about those kinds of things.

    Yeah, and just randomly coming up and hugging me is likely to get a glare, even from friends! But friends KNOW that about me, so when I offer a hug, they KNOW it is a big deal. Slapping my bum would get a scream. You were way calmer than I ever could have been.




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  • Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 12:16 PM
    Pffft - No - You are not wrong here. I think you acted in a very classy way. This woman has some obvious issues with common social decency. Maybe she just never learned, maybe she just likes the way you look, maybe she's just not good with men, maybe she's a big time exhibitionisth who doesn't understand boundaries, who knows, the bottom line is that she's been inappropriate a couple of times. Im sorry - but grabbing your boobs in class - even a class full of women and taught by a male dancer is just rude and unecessary, no matter how new you are. Im sorry that this happened to you, you should not be made to feel uncomfortable in your own class. You handled it with class.
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    • slade
      slade
      online 41

      Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

      Thu, June 5, 2008 - 12:18 PM
      Don't apologize. I think your response was completely appropriate. She does sound like someone who will act out repeatedly, though, maybe from ignorance, maybe from needing attention. I'm glad the other students called her on the boob grabbing.
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  • Katrina
    Katrina
    online 24

    Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 12:56 PM
    I would not, under any circumstances, apologize. If anything, she should apologize to you. That sort of behavior, from a male student to a female teacher, could likely lead to an assault charge (technically battery since physical contact was made), and it should be no different just because the gender roles were switched. I dare say if you slapped one of your female students on the butt, you'd face a potential law suit at best, criminal charges at worst. Never be sorry for defending your self. It seems to me that you are not the only one offended by her behavior if the other students are calling her on it, but if she continues to be disruptive, you may have to ask her to leave, since there are other students present who have also paid for the class, not her slap and tickle show. But if you apologize to her for defending yourself, asking her to leave later for her general bad behavior becomes sort of sticky.

    You handled it better than I would have since I have been known to punch people reflexively for touching me when I wasn't expecting it. Far classier than I would have, at any rate ;)
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  • Gibs...
    GibsonPearl
    offline 216

    Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 2:18 PM
    Absolutely NO apology necessary on your part...on hers, YES.

    Honestly, it sounds like this woman is a little...off. Grabbing your tits in class? Slapping the teacher on the ass? No. If any student did that to me, they'd be out--gone--no longer welcome. And it sounds like she's making other uncomfortable too, so you may need to take action at some point for the sake of the other students.

    I'm sorry that this happened to you, Valizan...I hope you can find a good resolution.
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    • Valizan
      Valizan
      online 403

      Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

      Thu, June 5, 2008 - 2:24 PM
      Hold on a sec, let me clarify something: She grabbed her OWN tits, not mine. The only time she touched me was when she slapped my rump (and that was the slowest slap ever!)

      I was doing a stretch to strengthen back muscles that involves pulling your shoulder blades down and back. It makes the chest left. We do it to right, to centre then to left.

      I don't know why she was doing it, but she grabbed her own boobs and was lifting them up to the right, to the centre and to the left. I was just shocked that she did it in a class full of people! I've only ever seen porn stars grab their boobs in a similar manner.
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      • Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

        Thu, June 5, 2008 - 2:58 PM
        Mister Valizan

        If she invaded your personal space, made you feel uncomfortable, then you have no need to apologise.

        If she carries on then I would take her aside and either say she isnt welcome or put her on a 3 strikes and your out.

        Just coz you are a guy who teaches doesnt make you an object for touching

        :)
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  • Allison
    Allison
    online 32

    Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 4:36 PM
    Hm. I lift my boobs in class...more like, I lift my chest to smooth out the fat roll so I can see the muscle happening there. Then again, I'm a wonderfully wonky bunch of silly girls in class and we have fun with...well, boobs.

    "Here comes Kaleena," Awkward moment of thinking of what to say on the spot, "...in her new red bra!" Cue disco lights.
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    • Mellie
      Mellie
      offline 89

      Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

      Thu, June 5, 2008 - 4:40 PM
      Yeah, self-groping happens a lot in our troupe. But we're a bunch of immodest jokesters.
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      • Bonn...
        Bonnie Margay
        offline 496

        Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

        Thu, June 5, 2008 - 5:00 PM
        I have a lot of fun flirting in class.

        But when some people get gross, then it's just, well... gross!
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        • ~Sasha~
          ~Sasha~
          online 220

          Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

          Thu, June 5, 2008 - 5:59 PM
          Well, let's put an opposite spin on this.

          Let's say Sir Valizan was the student and a female was teaching.
          Let's say that the teacher was teaching a pelvic tuck... you know... a sharp, quick contraction of the lowest part of the ab muscle.
          NOW....
          Let's say Valizan grabbed his... errrr... "equipment".... and bounced it up and down.... just so he "could see if I was doing the move right."

          This sort of behavior, grabbing of what is considered one's private parts/erogenous zones, whatever, in *mixed company* isn't cool. It's one thing for a bunch of giggly girls to do something like he described, but it's ***NOT*** OK to do that in mixed company. It's rude to HIM. It's an overtly sexual action that has no place in a dance class of any sort. Well.... maybe one sort.... but not belly dance.

          Valizan, Sir, if she was in any way humiliated, she did it to herself. From the sound of this, you handled yourself with dignity and have no reason to be sorry or second guess your judgement. Applause to you!

          ~S~
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  • Lee
    Lee
    offline 381

    Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 8:07 PM
    Yep, Girlfriend sounds like an attention-grabber with inappropriate boundaries and undeveloped social skills.

    Poor thing. I'm sorry for her. Sounds like she's got a lot of hard knocks ahead. If you apologize to her then you're condoning her behavior and reinforcing the idea that grabbing other people's butts and your own breasts in class is acceptable behavior.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm no prude:-) I've been know to grab both a butt and a breast in my time, but never out of context (winks).
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  • Cuin...
    Cuindless
    offline 26

    Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

    Thu, June 5, 2008 - 8:36 PM
    I think you were completely in the right, Valizan. In today's society, gender issues get brushed off as a "female thing", and men are too often told to just "suck it up". You didn't make an issue of nothing, you made an issue of something important. She violated your personal space and took liberties with your body that you did not give her express permission to do. I'm not saying that you should press charges for sexual assault, but I am saying that you absolutely did the right thing. For a long time in the US there was a mentality that men could not be raped by women because men naturally want sex or think that it's okay to be forceful. That mentality has lead a number of men to never come forward for fear that they would be ridiculed by society.

    You stood your ground, and she apologized. Not only that, she expressed joy in your classes. You reestablished a boundary, and that is perfectly acceptable. She's afraid that you're going to kick her out of class for her behavior. That's why she made an effort to tell you how much she's enjoying the class and the style of dance. I think the warning had the right effect, and I would have done the same thing in your position.
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    • Valizan
      Valizan
      online 403

      Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

      Thu, June 5, 2008 - 8:54 PM
      Cuindless, you hit a nail right on the head. As a guy, I thought I should just suck it up and let go of it because I'm a guy and that's what we do.

      Except that two weeks, and a breasting, later it still bothered me. I really didn't want to snap and tell her it was wrong right then and there. But in my mind, one over-the-top rude act deserved another. The best I could mention was what I said. And I wasn't sure if saying something in private would have done any good. She doesn't behave like a skank otherwise.

      The funny thing is, like some of you here, I'm not a touchy-feely person. My friends know not to get too tactile with me unless necessary and if I hug, it is a big thing.

      It didn't occur to me that she thought I might kick her out for her behaviour, so that's why she apologized. But that's okay. She's going to have to do more than rub rump and squeeze tata to get out of my class. :)
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      • Mellie
        Mellie
        offline 89

        Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

        Thu, June 5, 2008 - 9:50 PM
        Just curious, because I wonder how it fits into the equation: was she a large-breasted girl?
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        • Mellie
          Mellie
          offline 89

          Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

          Thu, June 5, 2008 - 10:03 PM
          HA! Realized this seems kind of random.
          Am asking this in reference to the boob-grabbing.

          I think we all agree that slapping someone on the ass who is not A. a lifelong friend or B. paying you to do so, is inappropriate.

          What I'm getting at is, sometimes boob-related things are considered to be more/less vulgar as a result of the size of the boobs involved. Would the same boob-grabbing act have been considered as vulgar or inappropriate if she were a small-breasted girl?

          Not invalidating anyone's experiences, but, I mean, there's grabbing your boobs because- hey, they're annoying bags of flesh you've had most of your life and they're in the way of you seeing your abs, and then there's grabbing your boobs and doing something truly and intentionally vulgar with them.
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          • ~Sasha~
            ~Sasha~
            online 220

            Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

            Thu, June 5, 2008 - 10:39 PM
            I personally don't think the size of the boobs really matters. What matters is that this woman grabbed hers (be they mosquito bites or cantaloupes) and bounced them up and down... in front of a male instructor. There is just something about that activity done in front of a man that really rubs me the wrong way (no pun intended). That is something a stripper would do and has no place in a belly dance class.

            IMHO, she was either (a) feeling herself up because it feels good or (b) she was trying to ellicit a response from Valizan. Attention seeker? I would guess YES. Has blurred boundary lines? Yup.
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            • Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

              Fri, June 6, 2008 - 2:22 AM
              Yeah, Sasha nailed it. If it was a guy, we'd all agree that it was a violation, and have no questions about whether it was intentional or excusable. One of the first lessons we ALL learn as children is "don't touch yourself like that in public." She's not 5 years old, and she shouldn't have to be told not to grope or grab herself in front of other people. I'm sorry, but you don't just do that without thinking in a crowded room unless you grew up in a cave. In most cases, if this were a guy, he'd have been asked not to come back the first time. In some cases, the second would be a reason to press harassment charges. She touched you without your permission, which is assault and battery, if I remember the 'mug throwing' thread. Based on that, I'd assume she was 'offering' the boobs, not just lifting them. We'll assume she doesn't know your preferences, but either way, it's borderline at best.

              And that it bothers you - "You know, when a dog bites us, most of us don’t look at the dog to see how badly we’ve been hurt – we look at the bite. And yet, when most of us begin to suspect we’re being drained by a vampire, the first thing we’re apt to do is try and take a closer look at what the vampire is doing." practicalslayer.blogspot.com/search
              It doesn't matter whether anyone else would be bothered. You don't have to justify being bothered by something. It bothered you, and still does. If it did and especially if it still does, your ignoring a message - listen to your instincts.
              And ya know, in both instances you said she flushed, but in neither one did you tell us she actually apologized for being crude - just for disrupting class. As if she's done nothing more serious than, say, talking too loudly; but notice that she flushed the moment she was called on it. She knew it was wrong before she did it, and just didn't expect to get busted. People like that count on the intended victim being too uncomfortable to deal with the problem directly, allowing them to beg off specific instances, but continuing the overall abuse.
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              • Velv...
                Velvet Fifi
                offline 74

                Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

                Fri, June 6, 2008 - 7:24 AM
                <but notice that she flushed the moment she was called on it. She knew it was wrong before she did it, and just didn't expect to get busted. People like that count on the intended victim being too uncomfortable to deal with the problem directly, allowing them to beg off specific instances, but continuing the overall abuse.>

                I posted on Shira's earlier, but this is something that was rolling around in my little noggin later on. You are absolutely correct, AngelDM. I don't think what I suggested would change much, however, since it still deals with busting someone and giving them your expectations of behavior, and a "do it one more time and you're out" warning. I don't usually wait around for a three strikes in situations like this. Otherwise it is still disruptive, and you are teaching her inadvertently that you have no teeth and there are no consequences to poor social behavior. It's like consistantly screaming a dog to "come". "you're" still screaming and the dog still does what it wants. The correct thing to do is to issue the command one time only, and if they didn't listen, immediately go get the dog and then repremand it, gently but firmly. Who knew teaching students with inappropriate behavior was like training a dog....
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                • Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

                  Fri, June 6, 2008 - 7:48 AM
                  Yup. She got away with it without consequense once, and then she repeated it. And now she thinks all is well because she flattered him and his class. Expect a repeat.
                  There was a play Mike told me about - "How to Train your Dog" in which a mother gives her bride to be daughter a book by that title, and says 'everywhere it says 'dog' replace it with 'husband' and you'll have a happy marriage." It follows with anyone, really.
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          • Gibs...
            GibsonPearl
            offline 216

            Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

            Fri, June 6, 2008 - 10:21 AM
            I don't know about that...I'm a busty gal and would even THINK of grabbing my own breasts and lifting them up and around so I could "see what I was doing"--and if I did it certainly wouldn't be in a class!

            Besides, another point is that it's not a "breast" move, it's actually an upper-back/chest/obliques move. The tits just go along for the ride.
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          • Valizan
            Valizan
            online 403

            Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

            Fri, June 6, 2008 - 11:31 AM
            Mellie, I wouldn't consider her breasts overly large. When she grabbed them she cupped each one in each hand and had some room to spare.
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            • Laura
              Laura
              offline 313

              Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

              Fri, June 6, 2008 - 11:45 AM
              This whole discussion makes me wonder. What happened to respect? It's different when you're with your group of friends, messing around, and you NORMALLY behave that way with each other. If you all have determined your level of personal space, who's comfortable with what, you know that intimacy thing that people develop with time in friendships with each other.

              But when you are in class, there's a level of respect that needs to be - well - respected! Fun and games are one thing but disrupting the class and intruding on the ability of students learning and teachers teachers is unacceptable.

              This is part of the discussion about professionalism that I think needs to be addressed. How we present ourselves reflects on how we get treated by others. Valizan - good for you for demanding ethical boundaries.

              I guess before I go off, I should just start another thread.
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              • Valizan
                Valizan
                online 403

                Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

                Fri, June 6, 2008 - 8:38 PM
                1. Yep... that would be about the size of her Um... boobies.

                2. Laura brings up an interesting point that I might re-answer in the other thread which I haven't read yet. I try to keep my classes pretty loose and easy so people don't feel like there is a dictator teaching them. (I *AM* a dictator, but they don't need to know that...;-))))

                I figure we are all grown-ups so when someone in class makes an off-colour joke, I laugh. Sometimes I even respond. But I am ridiculously acutely aware that I have a class of women, some of whom feel vulnerable or have issues with self esteem, so I am VERY careful in how I phrase things. I try to keep my discussions to the purpose at hand: Dance and doing what I done tole you to do (that's the dictator part! ;-)))

                When issues cross over, i stick to being honest and leave my predilection to be FDH for my friends, or for you lovely lot. :)

                One lady in a different class at one point said "I can't do this move because I'm a biggah girl."

                And I felt the rapport in the class was strong enough that I could say in front of them "Size has NOTHING to do with your ability to do this move. I have friends who are dancers who are WAY larger than you, who move like butter in a hot frying pan... MELLLltttttSSSSssizzle! And their attitude just ooozes of sexy."

                "But I'm too big to sizzle."

                "Honey, sexy is NOT a size. People don't have sex with a size! Get that idea out of your head."

                So now I'm wondering if the problem lady in the other class took my loose and easy attitude in class as permission to get all digit-al on me.

                I don't consider myself to be one of those people who give off a "come touch me, feel me" vibe. (Sheridan or Skallagrim... You two know me well... I don't give off that vibe do I?)

                I'd really hate to have to make my class cold and clinical. No fun for me, and not for them either. :( I'm really not that good at self-editing. But I guess as a guy I'm going to have to make an even harder attempt. :-/
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                • ~Sasha~
                  ~Sasha~
                  online 220

                  Re: Lady... Keep Your Effin hands to yourself ...

                  Fri, June 6, 2008 - 9:30 PM
                  Valizan,

                  You sound like a BLAST to be in a class with! I've taken enough classes with Jim Boz (yes, another.... *gasp*... male teacher!) and we're all goofy, giddy, giggly and just plain old silly in class, but he works our collective butts off. There is a line that I won't cross (for those who know me, YES, Virginia, there IS a line I won't cross!). Be it with Jim, or you, or any other instructor regardless of gender.

                  I think it would be sad if you felt that you had to censor yourself or change the existing "vibe" of your class because of one individual. IMHO, she needs to be spoken to privately. No other students within earshot (although being within eyesight of someone you trust might not be a bad idea). If I were you, I'd tell her that you would prefer that if she chooses to continue taking classes with you, that she abstain from some of the "touchy" behavior she's exhibited recently (be it touchy to you or to herself). Cite the example of if she was teaching the class and you exhibited similar behavior, how would she feel? Hopefully, she'll get the message.

                  Let me know if you ever decide to come to Phoenix for workshops!

                  ~S~
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                    Sakari