Just got back from Flipside, and while we didn't have any incidents, some of the people who volunteered for spotter duty were an unknown quantity to me. This got me thinking about holding drills for spotters to simulate various problems, and I wanted to get a discussion going about that:
1. What scenarios would you drill on? For example "wick goes flying into audience," "chains get knotted around poi spinner's wrists," etc.
2. What would be the best practice for each scenario?
Anything else?
1. What scenarios would you drill on? For example "wick goes flying into audience," "chains get knotted around poi spinner's wrists," etc.
2. What would be the best practice for each scenario?
Anything else?
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Austin
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Re: Spotter training
Tue, May 29, 2007 - 4:24 PMAt LAFC, we have a three stage process:
1) Big ol'e wick, standing with towel - gets 'em used to dealing with big fire, extinguishing without setting the towel on the ground, and dealing with a little unpredictability (it's on a chain).
2) On body fire - get 'em used to spotter-performer communication and have them extinguish wicks on special arm and leg assemblies
3) Chasing a body - the person in the rig runs away from the spotter - pretty much handles all the likely scenarios.
Extinguisher training is separate. -
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Re: Spotter training
Wed, May 30, 2007 - 9:38 PMI run newbie spoters through a few things .. 1st is how to use an Extinguisher (basic) 2nd is the ole fuel dump fire. 3rd is chasing the flying wick.. Like ted touched on with the big ol wick
best to train them while thngs are on fire..that way they dont panic when they are needed..
Sorry for missing you at flipside.. Thank you for helping Miles even know he let warlok mack the torchs that were meant for you..
I dont think at event like flipside or any event based in radical self relaince that the conclave leader should have to even wory about spotters,, peopl should know to bring their own..
to be honest I would rather count on another dancer watching me than a spotter I didnt know ..
Last year i messed with one of your spotters while we were all dancing after the effy fell.
she didnt know i had on nomex pants and shoes I wraped the whip around me and set myself on fire from the ankles to my waist.. sadly she stood there and looked at me in total shock I told her "'hey the water tube in your hands please shoot me with it and put me out "
she still just looked at me.. if I really had been in danger I would have been F^&*kd..
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Re: Spotter training
Thu, May 31, 2007 - 6:08 AM"Sorry for missing you at flipside."
Me too. I wrote a message on your behalf in the temple for the temple burn.
"peopl should know to bring their own"
Well, having a spotter at all violates radical self-reliance, if you want to get picky.
Not everyone who shows up at Flipside comes with a good spotter. I want everyone to be able to come to the fire circle and just jam. I had spinners I know sign up for 2-hour spotter shifts. We had two busy nights at the fire circle, with performers lined up 3 deep to go on (waiting both because of the number of available spotters and available space). If we had to coordinate spotter hand-offs, it would have gotten complicated.
The night of the effigy burn is another story--there are so many fire folk lit up at once that I'd pretty much take anyone who was willing to be a spotter. Which explains how you wound up with a deer-in-headlights spotter last year. It's exactly this scenario I want to avoid, and why I got to thinking about spotter training in the first place. -
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Re: Spotter training
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 8:24 AMMy deepest and most humble apologies becuase i got so caught up and lost in time that i forgot about the 2 hours that I voluteered for. I have not valid excuse and even though I was lostin time, it was no call for missing it. And I regret not being there to safety for so many others that are in the community.
Warlock
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Re: Spotter training
Thu, May 31, 2007 - 2:35 PMdemonstrating what a fuel dump fire looks like is also probably a good idea. I've seen people run from paint cans as though they expected them to explode. I also have seen someone turn over a (not empty) fuel can to try to put it out. Showing people how to smother fires by letting them do it in a controlled circumstance is a good idea.
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Re: Spotter training
Thu, May 31, 2007 - 1:03 AMI suppose that I should add the passive training that they get at our spin jam:
Every act gets a spotter
First spotter stands between flame and fuel (we have nowhere to protect our fuel [yet])
All fuel sets sealed before spinning
Spinout away from foot traffic
Single word communication ("Leg", "Hair", etc)
Spotters need a towel, fuel area needs an extinguisher
no smoking near fuel
blah blah blah it's all here:
www.lafc.org/burnclub/rules.html -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 6:35 AMPretty great, Tedward!
We use our performers as spotters between spins. "Spot after you spin" has been working well for us from the standpoint that the spotters thus know EXACTLY what to look for when somebody's getting into trouble.
One of our spinners had a close pass near his head that caught his hair on fire (short hair less than an inch long). His spotter jumped up, said "head", and put it out with a wet towel so fast that the spinner didn't even get burned. The spotter was also a performer, and knew when the closest passes would occur, and was READY.
I personally can't give enough credit to the spotter. He was PAYING ATTENTION to the spin and the towel was wet and ready also.
If you're spinning, make sure you know how to spot, too!
^Rhino! -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 11:47 AMWe like to train all our spinners to be spotters or safeties first. I start off with a general lesson in fire and fuel types. We do some transfer work and have them light themselves on fire. Most people have a huge irrational fear of fire, by starting with the fire lesson first the safety lesson to follow has better context. They then put out varrious props then put out people and at the end we challenge them with the "panicking asshole fire spinner" You gotta hunt them down dodge their props and put them out. This method really works, we have some Mad Ninja skilled spotters in out gorup. It's almost like they are psychic. :)
We used to do the fire safety training at burningman. The debate of "Bring your own trained spotters" vs "get your buddy in the circle as a spotter for a good view" has resulted in no more training but when we did train the buddy spotters we'd have em put out props and performers, threw some lit staves at them and called it good. :) -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 12:45 PMYeah, I still get the buddy/gf/bff/spouse thing in my spotter corps for burn night. We had a big problem with it until I started making the last 4 practices mandatory for spotters. Then the buddy quotient dropped significantly. A year after that, I went to rotating squads (A spins, B dips, C spots, then as A goes out, they pick up towels and replace C while B spins and C dips) and we eliminated it entirely. But now that Crimson has put in the 5:1 mandate, I feel like I should have a full-time safety team, at least for choreography, so it's starting up again. But mandatory attendance for the lit rehearsals and mandatory training keeps that down to a minimum.
As for ninja skillz, we got this one guy who built a duvy whip. It started as a rattail, and has continued to advance. He can take people out, at range, without entering their light circle. It's pretty sweet, and a little scary... -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 1:01 PMI'm the only full-time safety guy for our troupe, and it requires me to be REALLY switched on at times, when we've got multiple spinners out in the performance area and we've got a spinner in every corner. Everybody needs to be alert and ready, especially when multiple-person tricks are being done. I talk 'em up, tell 'em to "stay frosty (alert as hell)" and then sit back to make sure nobody bothers the spotters. THEIR attention should be on the performers at ALL TIMES. If they start to slack a little, they're replaced with another spotter. It's not a negative thing, it's relief for them. That way, we keep EVERYBODY fresh and paying attention. -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 2:02 PM4of our ninja spotters are black rock rangers. That training makes them the best possible spotters when trained with fire too. :)
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 2:22 AMWe do the same thing as Cody's group, except for the last part: Since all our spinners go through a lot of fire training first, we have never had a "panicking asshole." But we do have a part where the trainee yells the safety word and puts out one of the trainer's butt.
I have a typed up outline for all my fire and safety courses, and they help me to never forget to mention anything important. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 12:32 PMFor our version of the "panicking asshole" and just the "put out a body fire" training, I made these special armour pieces and attached wicking.
They're really simple: Take a 6"x8" piece of thin sheet aluminum, cut the corners completely round (for comfort). Sand edges until smooth (don't want burs to catch clothing) and glue some scrap leather or duvy to the back side (for added heat resistance). Next, cut a 3" peice of kevlar rope and use pop rivets, bolts, even kevlar thread to attach to the bottom front of the piece. Finally, take broom or other pole-like thing and curve the sheet vertically so that it will grip to an arm or leg. and Ta-Da!
Slip 1-4 of them on spritz with white gas and you can run, spin, panick or whatever with a flame safely on you persons for several seconds. And if it gets to be too much, one finger flips the whole piece off the trainer. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 1:09 PMThat's really cool.
I had been thinking of getting a used firefighter's turnout coat on ebay and just using regular poi for live-fire drills—but I'm not sure how long the coat would insulate against direct contact with a burning wick. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 8, 2007 - 1:21 PMYeah, I just used a torch for the first round of doing this and, ironically enough, I now have a permanent scar from the burn I got....teaching fire safety. *sigh*. These armour pieces have the extra benefit of being usable in fire combat as hit markers. -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 6:10 AMHow about the use of a safety word? If the spinner feels like he/she's in trouble, or if the spotter sees something the spinner doesn't , the safe word is spoken - LOUDLY! That way EVERYBODY is on point immediately, and you have the nearest spotter moving in the direction of the person in trouble. Choose a word that means nothing when you're spinning. Last two spins, we used 'bubblegum".
We're training new spotters right now, and I'm watching the process closely. Just like you learn the blocks in karate before you learn the strikes, you learn to spot before you spin.
I think we may go with Tedward's idea on the armor pieces for spotter training for everybody.
Another practice that we're doing before ALL spins...performances and practices....pre-spin pep talk. It's a form of reinforcement for the spinners...they're trying new things all the time. I let them, provided they prove themselves WITHOUT fire first. We had pair of spinners doing staff passes Saturday night - they got it down first without fire, and it turned out as a pretty good trick. Turns out (and I didn't know this) that these two went to high school together, and felt comfortable with each other, and knew each other's moves pretty well.
We have an index card file AT THE SPIN just in case, with each person's name, contact info for family, drug allergies, and preexisting conditions on file. That way, if the unthinkable happens, we are prepared to aid emergency services. You don't have a card on file, you don't spin. Simple as that.
Safe spins, all......
^Rhino! -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 10:33 AMHmm, I don't know Tedward is that a bit of overkill? I just use my carehearts and a really soaked wick, slap it on a thigh and let them put it out. I have a good 5-7 seconds before there could be any trouble and if they fail to put it out I can slap it out with a hand. I think this is the most realistic scenario for a spinner transferring fire to themselves. How much fire do you have on those armor pieces and is it realistic? I used to teach one fire class each day to about 15 spotters at burning man and I would light my thigh up continuously for each to try it out. I just think the armor is a bit overkill.
I understand the idea of using a safety word, but I find that is just doesn't work. With proper training any dangerous transfer is taken care of long before you can think of the safety word let alone say a 3 syllable word. We teach our safeties about burn locations. If a shin or thigh gets lit up and the spinner sees it, it isn't a problem unless the spinner then looks for a spotter then run in and take it out. Most of the time with transfers if the spinner sees it they have it under control and a spotter isn't needed. But when that spot between the shoulder blades or top of head gets caught just run in there and tap it out. I have never seen a safety word used effectively, it just takes too long and if it can be avoided, it looks better as a performer to not advertise needing help. :) Oh and my favorite, if a spinner is actively wrapping their poi around their legs or running a juicy staff along their leg, they are most likely aware they are on fire and have it under control, so don't panic.
:) -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 11:17 AMCody, YOU can just put on YOUR carhartt's and run safety, but what if YOU aren't around? Leather chaps from them run about $50, and their flame retardant line doesn't fill me with confidence. These armour pieces cost about $10 in materials that I happened to have around and once built, ANYONE can use them. So, basically, they're my version of "I just slip on my carhartts....." :)
Re: Codewords. Why? Are you trying to keep the fact that there's a problem secret? From whom? The audience will guess pretty quick when the spotter moves in. If you're gonna use a codeword, why not "help"? -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 1:02 PM>>If you're gonna use a codeword, why not "help"?
'Help' works, its clear and to the point... Ive also found that "Aaaughh!!!" works pretty well, too. Or yelling the spotter's name... or even using some words that are probably not appropriate for mixed company, but they get the point across as well. Just make sure you have a good spotter that you can trust to put you out... thats the basic idea... to eliminate the "stop, drop, and roll" aspect of it all, right? ;) -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 1:11 PMStop drop and roll only works when you don't have flaming wicks tied to your hands... :) -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 1:30 PMHeheheh
"Leg"
S,D&R
"Oooh, back, ummm, arm, hair, other leg, stop rolling will ya!" -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 1:40 PMhahahaha!!!! While just an amusing idea right now, that could suck if it was me on fire rolling about in my own flames.... That's why we like you Tedward, you use your head as more than just a hatrack... -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 1:52 PMIt's all reminiscent of the safety training you go through when you're rock climbing. You're taught to communicate to the guy at the top of the slope who is spotting you....sometimes, there's a similar communication..........
<Man at bottom of slope, telling his safety man (his belayer, as he's known,) that he's ready to climb>
"On belay!"
<His belayer's response....>
"Belay ON!"
<Man at bottom of slope starts to climb....>
"Climbing!"
<His belayer's response....>
"Climb ON!"
<Now about halfway up the cliff, the climber loses his grip..........>
"Falling!"
<our perverted thought as to what the belayer should yell when he hears 'falling'>
"Fall ON!"
Actually, I hope the belayer was paying attention......
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 2:02 PMMy friends who are into D&S like to joke "'Rumplestiltskin' is a really bad safe word."
On HoP, they suggest that spotters communicate to spinners what's on fire in way too much detail, eg, "lower left pant leg." I always found "STOP" works really well.
When I'm on fire and I need help, I use "HELP" -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 2:05 PMI agree, as a safety I usually yell STOP or DOWN when I see it, and its not going out, and that tends to work really well.
as a spinner I call HELP when I'm aware of a problem. -
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Re: Spotter training
Mon, June 11, 2007 - 2:22 PMWe tell our spotters to use one-word signals like Arm, Leg, Hair, etc. usually, you don't even have to specify which performer. Most of the time, the spinner knows they just bumped an arm, and then hearing it let's 'em know they transferred flame. -
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Re: Spotter training
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 9:02 AMIt depends on the context too, if your just practicing or a new spinner, communicate the hell out of it, but if your performing you'll want to limit communication for asthetics. We use arm, leg etc while practicing too.
I like the rock climbing analogy for starters, but your rarely performing while climbing. For me the code wor for falling is "Take!" When lead climbing, take means take in the slack and slack means give me slack. It's a nice one syllable word that easily escapes your mouth just before your stomach. :P
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Re: Spotter training
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 5:04 PMBased on some of the discussion here, and some on the local mailing list, and some stuff I just pulled out of my ass, I've come up with a document that I plan to use as a companion to spotter drills.
fire-gear.com/spotter-tra...g-notes.html
Feedback welcome. I'm probably missing some important points under the "hairy situations" heading. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 11:31 AMCool list Adam, I have a few suggested additions. :)
Reguarding the harry situation I would include immediately pulling the fire out and up above the skin. Heat rises so moving the fire safely above the hands or skin first, then attempting to put out will remove the heat from the performer. I'm afraid that someone might just cup the poi heads but leave the flames toasting the performers fingers while trying to put them out or untangle them.
For putting out tools I always teach to fold like a burito. Fold to protect the safety first so fold forward, then fold in the sides at a slight angle to produce one opening pointing away from the safety. Then I am a big fan of patting down the prop to smother it especially with duvie. Clapping shoves out any trapped air that could be keeping the wick burning even though it's covered. Also add that duvie stays cleaner with multiple uses and doesn't mold in your car after weeks of use. :P
Fire extinguishers, I'd add CO2 with proper training. I am such a huge fan of these they would definately be on my list. Since they are multi shot and easilly refillable you tend to hesitate less in using them and they are amazingly effective with fuel dump fires.
Reguarding fuel dump fires I'm a little confused as to how throwing dirt in a bucket of flaming fuel will work? I can see doing that with a spill, but I would worry others would do more harm than good by increasign the risk of knocking over the can.
Please add to look out for proper clothing on the performers in certain scenarios, especially in burner scenarios. A few years back I spotted a performer wearing nothing but a light synthetic sarong. (SP?) Just as I thought "that isn't right," it lit up. I was half way there before it lit. I put it out while she put her poi heads in my face and panacked. She still got a nice big second degree burn, but otherwise she would have been headed to the hospital. I lost some eyebrows and eyelashes in the proccess. :P
Excellent start can I borrow it for my group and website??
:P
Thanks
Cody -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 12:24 PMCody--
Thanks for the feedback. Good stuff.
Re dirt: if you can completely cover the fuel, you'll extinguish the flame. I think. I've put out fires by kicking sand over them, I reasoned that dirt would do the same.
Re CO2 extinguishers: I've actually never used one (for that matter, I haven't used a powder extinguisher in years). But I'll add that.
Re clothing: reasonable point. It's hard to know where to stop with a document like this: the performer's clothing is something the spotter should take note of (and I mention it briefly), but I don't want to dwell too much on stuff that is the performer's responsibility.
Please do use and adapt the document. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 12:42 PMRe sand.
Sand is a wick. It's actually pretty cool to get a wok full of it and pour in some white gas. The whole wok lights up and you can even draw with the flames. Point is, I don't know how effective it would be as an extinguishing agent. Maybe it's time to tip another bucket in the park.... :) also, if people think "kick sand on it" they might end up kicking the bucket over before getting enough sand to kill the flame.
Because of the product variability of ABC extinguishers, I agree that avoiding the face area is a good idea, but not if the head is on fire. Even the worst ABC chemicals are a minor aggravation compared to the potential of a 3rd degree burn. "avoid" rather than "never", plus, some people know what's in their extinguishers and can comfortably say "hit me in the face dangit"
also, I'd like to add a note for AVP, the order that multiple loose fires are attended: Audience, Venue, then Performer. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:42 PMSand can go both ways in fact.
playing on the beach we have had our chance to play with sand and fuels pretty well. fuel just sitting on sand will continue to burn. if you really want to have fun you can carefully scoop the fuel sand combo up and have fire palms. all the same you can dump more sand on and smother it. the difference is really how close the fuel is to the surface versus how fast the air can move down to meet the fire.
a note about clothing choices. several people I know regularly use synthetics while spinning. an example is stockings. they actually like the effect of have some vaporize as they do leg wraps. the level of damage they do to themselves is for the most part minor, and they accept the damage as part of what they do.
not for me though, I'll stick to my cottons and leathers.
taz
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 12:26 PMYeap, Adam, I concur with Cody....excellent start.
I have one or two suggestions that might enhance it further.
Under "Scenarios" , I'd also encourage a category of 'Physical Setting' for each of the scenarios. Is the gig in an outdoor setting on concrete, asphalt, or grass? An oil spill on concrete or asphalt can lead to a slippery footing. The spotter needs to be able to pitch some kitty litter or oil absorbent on the spill so as to enhance footing and prevent falls. Ever had a fire tool fall on you when you slip? You know what I mean, then. For a brief instant, if your spotter is on the job, it's scary.
When outdoors, be aware of potential close-by overhead hazards...awnings love to catch fire, and nearby ornamental trees are lovely in their ability to go up in smoke.
Can I borrow this to train my spotters, too?
^Rhino! -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:00 PMOK, I'm updating as we go. These are all good points, and we're thinking along parallel lines in some cases. Take another look. This could go into the NAFAA wiki, I suppose. -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:07 PMyou still have the password, right? -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:13 PMOhh, also, since this stuff tends to become "the Word" I'd like to put in a bid for signaling.
HOP suggests something ridiculous like "<perf name> your <affected area> is on fire". Clearly in an open spin jam, you may not know people well, or at all. We've found that one-word body parts gets the job done. If you just nicked your arm and suddenly hear "arm" you can guess it's you, and know exactly where it is.
Calls you're likely to hear at Burn Club: arm, leg, hair, back, chest, foot -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 3:08 PMWow vaporizing clothes, sounds cool as long as it works. It sounds like these performers have it dialed in as to what material they are using. Other synthetic materials will catch fire and melt into your skin instead of vaporizing and going up in somke.
Tedward, I kept thinking I was forgetting something and it was mentioning the AVP standard. :)
I would encourage all fireperformers to get an educatuion in CO2 extinguishers. Especially if your using huge fire props or fire sculptures. In one extinguisher class we attempted to create the worst case scenario fuel dump fire. The sucker was pretty big and it gave us a chance to experiment. I was able to take it out with a 15lb CO2 but it was tricky. Dave also had a 15lb ABC high flow and man that'll take down anything. Cory make a ghosbuster style backpack mount for a 10 lb CO2 complete with hand held fireing mechanism. We used it in a parade where we were all getting too hot. big fire, full dress, walking in the hot sun. We drained the whole thing just blasting each other to cool off. I've been hit with CO2 many times while performing and man is it nice when your really hot. True you have to be carefull and not blast someone too hard or too close, but that danger isn't as big as it sounds IMO.
:) -
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Re: Spotter training
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 3:20 PMnope, they aren't dialed in, they just use really thin stockings (which helps) and they just don't care about minor burns.
taz
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