I am wanting to do an act involving eating fire with colored flames. The flames are created using denatured alchohol and boric acid. Anyone have advice on any danger here? Is this okay?
posted by:
Daniel
North Carolina
  • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 7:20 PM
    I suggest you google "Boric acid MSDS". You'll run across something like this:
    www.jtbaker.com/msds/engli...l/B3696.htm

    Admittedly the MSDS for white gas is even scarier (the lethal dose is lower). It's the conventional wisdom among fire-folk that all flame colorants are exceptionally nasty chemicals, but I can't contribute any hard information beyond pointing at MSDSs.
  • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 9:04 PM
    Hey, Boric acid eating is totally okay as long as you make sure to use pure methanol. Then, you'll go blind before your teeth fall out of your face and your lips erode, and you won't have to look at yourself in the mirror.
  • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:38 PM
    No.
    • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

      Tue, April 1, 2008 - 5:10 AM
      Ok, so I am hearing no. Tedward, such a lovely way of putting that. Yikes. Guess i will use regular white gas flame. How toxic is this stuff. For instance, could you light a torch dipped in white gas off of a colored flame and eat that or will my teeth still fall out. Can colored flames be used safely in an indoor venue?
      • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

        Tue, April 1, 2008 - 11:46 AM
        Methanol, skin falling off....
        NO INDOOR COLORED FLAMES!!!!

        That said, we did get a couple of special bottles of colored fuel from eOil Candles. We don't know what was in them but they were the reddest of reds and the bluest of blues. We had a couple of breathers give 'em a try and they totally worked. Big blue fireballs.... *sigh*

        But boric acid, when it meets water is astoundingly nasty stuff. Someone returned a Countach fan to me after dipping in supersaturated boric acid. It looked just like a cartoon had taken a bite out of it: Through the kevlar, corroding the cotton, completely ate the aluminum and brass, left tiny shreds of the steel.

        Do not get boric anywhere near your skin. Do not burn it anywhere near your audience. Yes, once it's burning it *should* be safe, but are you really willing to take that risk?
        • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

          Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:24 PM
          Hold the damn boat.

          First of all you want to use denatured alcohol as the carrying solvent. That is a neurotoxin. It decomposes into formaldehyde in your liver and eats your brain. This is bad, but it gets far worse. Just stop there. Naptha/white gas has too many carbons and will not allow a metal salt to color the flame much*. eOil candle oil supposedly uses glycol, which isn't too bad for you, but I still think getting it within 3 feet of your mouth is a fantastically bad idea, because even if the solvent won't kill you, almost all of the chemical salts are extremely bad for you.

          Please, please, for the love of god, think about what you are doing. If eating f'ing fire isn't impressive enough, will adding colors make it any better???
          ~Sam

          *note of no importance, you can color naptha with some metal salts that you really shouldn't put near biological beings.
          • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

            Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:55 PM
            Well, actually, White gas can't dissolve those salts because it doesn't have a polar reactive group (OH for example). Water (HOH) is the most reactive, Methanol (HOCH3) has the highest reactive group to Carbon chain ratio. Ethanol (HOCH2-CH3) has twice as many carbons as methanol. And Isopropyl (CH3-HOCH2-CH3) has three times as much. White gas (CH3-CH2-CH2-CH2--CH2-CH3) has nothing to split the salts into metal ions that can react with O2.

            The "special" bottles form eOC weren't their normal glycol stuff, it was a product we were testing for them that we discovered cannot be shipped without a hazardous materials rider. And I wouldn't trust either mix in my mouth. Just saying that the idea isn't faulty, it actually works... unlike trying to breathe black-light reactive seltzer water. Yuck.
            • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

              Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:57 PM
              Oh, and Denatured alcohol is mostly Ethanol cut with some percentage of "denaturants" making it unpalatable or unsafe to drink. Because of the similar properties, the denaturant is usually Methanol in some percentage ranting from 1%-40%.
              • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                Tue, April 1, 2008 - 8:39 PM
                Actually, it's a bit more complex than that. Dentatured ethanol is designed to be very toxic at low oral doses. Reason being the BATF doesn't want anyone getting drunk without paying their liquor tax. I'd look for Everclear in the liquor strore if you want a "safe" ethanol, if your state allows its sale. Otherwise, go to a state where its sale IS permitted.

                There are several acceptable formulas for denaturing ethanol and usually you wind up with about 90% ethanol and a 10% hodgepoge of isopropanol, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl iso butyl ketone and methanol.

                Halfway on the toxic meter between denatured ethanol and Everclear are the specially denatured alcohols (SDAs). These are government-sanctioned formulas to kinda sorta make ethanol toxic and there are roughly 40 SDA formulas. Purchasing a SDA requires a license from the BATF and anyone reading this probably doesn't fit their requirements for granting of a license. SDAs are used in personal care products, for example, like hairspray, mouthwash, cologne/perfume and the like. If you read the label on your bottle of mouthwash or cough syrup you'll see an ingredient like "SDA 31B." 31B refers to the specific formula for denaturing the ethanol. A cough syrup designed for oral consumption for instance, may contain an SDA that the government calls "safe" at the doses typical of a person suffering from a cough, but it's far less toxic than the denatured alcohol you'll find in the hardware store. Try to get drunk from an SDA-containing product and you'll probably wish you had just ponied up your liquor tax. Try to get drunk from dentaured alcohol (from the hardware store) and you'll probably wind up dead or in the hospital.

                This is also why you'll sometimes hear about winos who get drunk on aftershave (SDAs). They drink it and get drunk from the ethanol and either the alcohol buzz is worth getting sick, or their bodies are accustomed to the denaturants and don't respond like your body would - assuming you're not an aftershave-swilling wino.
                • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                  Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:03 PM
                  Okayyyy....fiiiine. If you want the loooong version...
                  :)
                  Good stuff. Thanks.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                    Wed, April 2, 2008 - 3:45 PM
                    Ha ha! That's what happens when I consume too much ethyl alcohol and then get on Tribe.

                    Short version:

                    Dentaured alcohol, due to a variety of additives, is very toxic and shouldn't go anywhere near your mouth.

                    For a safe alcohol, use Everclear from the liquor store.

                    Pay your taxes.

                    :)
                    • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                      Wed, April 2, 2008 - 4:15 PM
                      Thing is, even Everclear is only 151, or about 75% alcohol. People go for the industrial chemicals because they're 90%+. Heck I can get 99% iso in the grocery store that burns just about like white gas, AND does a fair job on the colored flames. Plus, ethanol at 70%+ will get you drunk just from the fumes entering soft tissue.
                      • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                        Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:25 PM
                        Actually, real Everclear is 190 proof (95% ethanol). In states where it is banned, such as California, they sell a "weak" version @ 151 proof.

                        If you want the real thing you may have to cross state lines.

                        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ever...alcohol%29

                        I wouldn't doubt, though, that you can quickly absorb enough through the tissues in your mouth to make you drunk, not to mention the "real" Everclear is more inflammable than many solvents you're used to, thus exposing you to more of a fire hazard than usual.
                      • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                        Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:31 PM
                        Tedward, I hope I don't come across as directly contradicting you (except on the proofage of Everclear). The original thread was about fire eating /breathing and you know far more about that than I and if you say it's a bad idea, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Just in case there was any ambiguity.....:)
                        • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

                          Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:39 PM
                          Snail, you're fired... :)

                          As long as you're willing to pull evidence and back up your facts, I welcome you to contradict any old thing that comes to mind. I enjoy debate and take no offense at all to a bit of verbal sparring.

                          The everclear I got ahold of was from NV, and was 151, though it could have been intended for sale in CA. I never heard of anything higher proof that wasn't called "White Lightning".
          • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

            Fri, April 4, 2008 - 2:46 PM
            "eOil candle oil supposedly uses glycol, which isn't too bad for you"

            Which glycol? There are a number of them and only one that I know of that won't kill you (but they'll still taste sweet, supposedly).
  • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:15 PM
    Hehehe, another reason not to do it. From the Specialty Insurance safety pages, it will void your insurance:
    "Chemical salts mixed with fuels to obtain colored flame should NEVER be
    used on eating torches. Chemicals to obtain colored fire such as Boric Acid
    are extremely toxic. Boric Acid is a main ingredient in roach killer! "
  • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:26 PM
    Boric Acid = ant poison.

    So no, not good for eating or breathing.
    • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

      Wed, April 2, 2008 - 8:52 AM
      Boric acid, I was told, is only used for ant poison because it expands upon ingestion, literally exploding the the little ants belly and killing it. Our bellies are bigger than an ant's belly so not to worry there. I have taken all of this other information under consideration and I always consider safety as the highest priority. I do think, which is why I am grateful for this tribe and the knowledgeable people who take the time to share their knowledge. Thank you. I will not be eating colored flames, indoors or out. What fuel do you reccomend for an indoor fire eating routine? How about lamplighter farms orderless and smokeless. I know that this contains carcineans but in the small amount that would be ingested from fire eating this shouldn't be a big deal? Or should it? Using this fuel would make any kind of transfers difficult if not impossible. Is white gas the best solution for indoors and fire eating. The venue is small and will be crammed with people.
      • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

        Wed, April 2, 2008 - 11:50 AM
        Actually, it doesn't "contain" carcinogens, it -becomes- carcinogens. The contents of lamp oil is used as a laxative. It's almost chemically identical to the "mineral oil" laxatives found in most pharmacies. Because of improper combustion (not enough air to complete all the transactions) Unbunred parts of the molecules can become unhealthy molecules (like carbon monoxide). So, in that respect, yes, lamp oil has a slightly higher propensity towards creating these problem chemicals because of it's longer chains (up to 3 times as long). But when you're talking about fire eating, you're talking about the perfect environment for any fuel to create these problem chemicals.

        Might as well use what works best for you. I like white gas because of the tricks I do (lots of transfers) which is harder to do with alcohol (small flames) or lamp oil (won't burn).
        • Re: Colored flames and Fire Eating

          Thu, April 3, 2008 - 11:02 PM
          Pretty much any fuel will contain some carcinogens, or will produce them upon combustion. The idea is to try to minimize the toxic chemical exposure. Boric acid is toxic, though there are much worse things you could use for color like copper salts, but still, not in the mouth. Even repeated expose to boric acid smoke/fumes/whatever from colored poi wicks will give you contact dermatitis.

          General rule of thumb, if it sounds like it might be a retarded thing to do, it probably is.

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