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"We use a naturally fire resistant fabric (85% cotton/15% lycra). The clothing is fire resistant because of the fabric content and the weave. Note: Our clothing is not fire proof, fire dance in our clothing at your own risk."
I found another thread that broached this without any hard evidence or solid debate, and I'm curious; I know that all fire arts come with a caveat of "at your own risk" and part of the art is balancing safety with performance/risk (although safety always wins for me 'cause I'm a wussy boy).
But what is the "safe" level of something like lycra or spandex in a material. If people believe it's 0%, I'll buy that. I won't buy, "I haven't had a problem" because the real answer might include an implied "yet"... I've seen people perform encased in polyester and synthetic feathers, and no one can convince me of the safety level of that.
I just want to get a general consensus of what people think and see any tests that go along with it.
Note: I purposefully edited the first paragraph in order to remove any mention of company. I'm not trying to call anyone out her.
I found another thread that broached this without any hard evidence or solid debate, and I'm curious; I know that all fire arts come with a caveat of "at your own risk" and part of the art is balancing safety with performance/risk (although safety always wins for me 'cause I'm a wussy boy).
But what is the "safe" level of something like lycra or spandex in a material. If people believe it's 0%, I'll buy that. I won't buy, "I haven't had a problem" because the real answer might include an implied "yet"... I've seen people perform encased in polyester and synthetic feathers, and no one can convince me of the safety level of that.
I just want to get a general consensus of what people think and see any tests that go along with it.
Note: I purposefully edited the first paragraph in order to remove any mention of company. I'm not trying to call anyone out her.
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Boston
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 2:21 PMNomex IIA and nomex IIIA are actually nomex and nylon blends (with up to 12 or 15% nylon) with the intention being that the nylon melts and fuses to the nomex, creating a stronger baffle against heat, since nomex weaves are naturally pretty drafty and can let a lot of heat through.
The caveat to these is that NFPA 70e* requires** that you wear 100% cotton or something equivalently non-flammable (I guess leather undergarmets work) under these fabric blends.
Personally, I wouldn't wear that, because the fabric will noticeably degrade when heated past a specific point, becoming stiff, non-breathable. Will it drip melty stuff on you, or fuse to your flesh, giving your local burn ward some graphic nightmare visions? Most likely not, that again depends on just how much you F*#$ up.
~Sam
*nfpa 70E is specifically for electrical and electrical fire hazards, but it is the general standard for all hazardous workplaces, and covers flame hazards, sortof. More accurately, people in flame hazard areas wear clothing that is rated to NFPA 70e standards, to the best of my knowledge. NFPA guidelines are freaking confusing.
** requires: I use this term loosely, because nfpa is confusing as heck. By requires, I mean that to meet ARC1/2 clothing rating*** (from the neck down, let's say), you have to have non-melty undergarmets (suggested 100% cotton, but kevlar long jons could do... or perhaps not). Then again, to meet any ARC standard according to nfpa70E you should have eye and ear protection... so it's pretty much a moot point anyway.
*** Arc1/2 being the classification for specialized fire/electrical arc resistant clothing, like treated fibers or aramids... ARC 0 being equivalent of wearing all natural fibers, arc 1 being specialized somewhat (eg boronated dickie's pants/ treated carharts), arc 2 being rather specialized (nomex jumpsuit/ specially treated fibers), arc3 being stuff like turnouts or prox suits.
I could go on with footnotes for days, because this stuff is confusing. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 4:05 PMActually, no. there's no nylon in the Nomex blends. this PDF from DuPont Illustrates the various blends nicely:
www2.dupont.com/Personal_P...l_Guide.pdf
"Type 462 NOMEX® (NOMEX®IIIA)
Type 462 staple of NOMEX® is a blend of NOMEX® and KEVLAR® brand fibers and P-140, a proprietary static dissipative fiber."
If I recall correctly, the percentages are about 15% Nomex, 80% Kevlar and 5 % p-140.
I generally do not buy anything less than 50% cotton for much the reasons sam laid out with the Nomex. 15% lycra isn't too unsafe. It's certainly not safe BECAUSE of the lycra, but it shouldn't be any more serious of a burn problem than straight cotton. When the cotton percentage drops below 55%, that's when you need to start worrying. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 4:55 PMOh good god, my brain went soft and squishy. I mixed up two very different paragraphs in my brain.
from : www.electricityforum.com/arc-f...g.html
A good rundown on what ARC ratings and NFPA 70e means to a non-fire inspector/OSHA person
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Flame-Retardant Treated 88 Percent Cotton, 12 Percent Nylon: Previously, it was stated that nylon was an undesirable fabric for electric arc-blast protection. With this blend there is a mechanical type reaction when it is exposed to excessive heat. The nylon melts and essentially fills up the gaps between the cotton fibers creating a more solid defense against the heat source. This fabric is sold under the trade names of “Banwear” (made by Itex) and “Indura UltraSoft” (made by Westex). Both of these products guarantee that the flame retardant performance of the ppe is maintained throughout the life of the garment. One can expect Banwear and Indura UltraSoft to last 18 to 30 months when worn daily and home laundered once per week.
93 Percent DuPont™Nomex® , Five Percent Kevlar, and Two Percent Antistatic Fiber: This long-winded description is most commonly know by its trade name “Nomex IIIA.” manufactured by DuPont™. Nomex IIIA is a lightweight, inherently flame-resistant fiber blend. It does tend to have a higher heat let-through rate. This fabric is available in weaves from 3.3 to 7.5 ounces per square yard. Some weights are available in ripstop and twill weaves. Nomex IIIA has an expected wear life of 30 to 48 months.
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(Copyright ElectricityForum.com).
Sorry guys, I misspoke, and was appropriately called out, but I stand by my prior assesment of this type material, that it will likely become stiff and non-breathable when heated up past a specific point. (probably ~150C - graze of poi head or small transfer).
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 8:30 PMAgreed.
Nomex is also known to bond nondestructively to other materials to increase their flammability performance. Cotton, for example degenerates at about 500 degrees, but blended with just 10% nome, it won't start degeneration until about 700 degrees. Most "kevlar" blends have about 5% nomex in them for this very reason. Pure kevlar starts to degenerate at 700 degrees. Most "kevlar" tape doesn't start taking damage until about 800-850 degrees (depending on fiberglass content).
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, July 28, 2009 - 8:35 PMHowever, I would like to argue your original estimation. 15% lycra probably will become stiff and lose flexibility with fairly minimal heat (for fire performance). But becoming "drippy" and generally taking on the characteristics of napalm, no. That's what the heavy cotton content mitigates. At about 50% cotton, the cotton fibers will degenerate quickly, if not first. The char and ash from the cotton will bond with the melted synthetic, reduce the heat of that material, and interfere with long-term combustion (ie after the fuel burns off). Again, below 50% cotton by content, and there isn't enough material there to override the napalm effects of synthetics. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Wed, July 29, 2009 - 11:11 AMSo: theory only, but 15% lycra will only contribute to a faster costume deterioration, but should not prove a higher risk than pure content (in normal fire spinning use). Signs of decay will predicate actual danger, so it will have an indicator for life expectancy.
So beyond NFPA and local fire marshal regulations, that level of blend is a viable option, especially for limited use costumes. And this percentage may be able to go to 70/30 cotton to synthetic or higher? Do you know if any testing has been done to back this up?
Correct me if I'm misreading/misinterpreting. Otherwise, I love the insight, as it went against my line of thinking. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Wed, July 29, 2009 - 3:51 PMThis is mostly from looking at the labels of ruined clothing and zeroing in on the culprit. No serious study, to my knowledge, has been done on fire performer clothing materials. Often, studies are done for drapery, firefighting, or general flammability, but I don't know of a single "standardized" test that involves smacking an item with a fuel soaked, flaming wick and verifying usefulness afterwards.
The only serious lab- tests i've done on clothing articles were on the rubber items I sell at bearclaw, and the safety goggles we were looking at selling. the rest have been the: Wear it, Spin in it, Check for holes; type testing. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Sun, August 2, 2009 - 10:06 PMAnd you might as well tell everyone that to attain the certifications for various laboratory tests, that the lab has to be certified with the testing organization. Example:
If you're running ASTM tests, you go for certification for those tests from ASTM or a testing agency acting in the interest of ASTM.
And then you hang the certification on the wall.
I've never seen any clothing tests on fire performer materials either, mostly what you get for flammability tests on cloth is for baby and small children's sleepwear.
The problem with that is, not all fire performance artists look great in flannel. -
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Re: How Bad can Lycra Be?
Tue, August 4, 2009 - 5:17 AMHome of Poi did a burn test on different fabrics.. that is how long it took when exposed to flame to ignite or melt.
I prefer 100% silk as it has about a 6 second exposure time and it looks good.. leather and 100% cotton. I hunt thrift stores for silk and leather for costumes.
www.homeofpoi.com/lessons_a...ty-1_2_140
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