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Hey everyone. I want to throw out the idea for a new piece of property.
In good news:
The property is only $40,000 down, or $70,000 total. It's on a spectacular white sand beach, with incredible views. And there's an amazing dormant volcano behind it.
On the down side, it's a narrow strip of land with neighbors.
It would very much change the nature of the project. We would lose our privacy. We probably couldn't have loud parties on our land. We wouldn't really achieve goals 4 or 5 from the website.
The project would be more of a quiet space to live sustainably and make art.
Though, we could probably head up the volcano for full-moon parties far from anyone.
For now, it's a very small quiet area. But eventually, it might build up into a big town around us. This shouldn't be the intent, but it's possible that the property will seriously increase in value.
As for our freedoms, we wouldn't really have much extra freedom, except perhaps one important one. We might be able to have free time. In our lives in America, most people have to work to much to really enjoy their lives. It might be possible to escape that, at least for a time, in Nicaragua.
So, it's a big change. But at this point, I might be very happy with an incredible strip of beach where we can live and making amazing art.
What do you guys think?
Photos of the property:
www.nicabeachfront.com/co-4405.jpg
www.nicabeachfront.com/co-4401.jpg
www.nicabeachfront.com/co-4406.jpg
www.nicabeachfront.com/co-4312.jpg
And a photo showing the dormant volcano directly behind the property:
earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsr...rg.jpg
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 7:03 AMHave ya'll thought about joining an already existing sustainable community? There are many in Costa Rica.
...just a thought -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 5:24 PMthen they'd have to be able to work together with other people, under those people's previously existing norms.
and on this topic? No, not even a chance. better to be remote in the mountains than near neighbors at the beach. -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 7:31 PMdeadletter:
> No, not even a chance. better to be remote in the mountains than near neighbors at the beach.
I agree as far as it being a huge sacrifice for us. But it is a sacrifice that I personally think I'd be willing to make if I can find enough people to join in on it.
I'll share a bit about my dream. Most projects seem to start with a set of values, that fades away as the years go on.
I'd like to see Floatingman take an opposite path. Let's start with a proof of concept, and create an year-round artistic community based on principles of self-reliance, self-expression, and gifting.
Then once it's going and momentum builds, we can build another community on the same model, that's larger and more remote with more freedoms. After that, we can buy a big ship, and head out into the sea. And then finally maybe someday, we'll build our own island, and declare sovereignty.
So, I think I'm fine with staring with something small that doesn't meet all of our goals, and then building on the idea from there.
Check out what these guys are working on:
seasteading.org/ -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Thu, July 31, 2008 - 11:21 AMJust wanted to add some more thoughts on what it would mean to be onshore rather than on an island.
I love the idea of having a private island. But also realize that by moving on shore we wouldn't have the problems of "island fever". Our population density could be higher. And thus, we could be much more lax in terms having family and guests on the property. We should be able to move to a model where it's like a real home. Everyone can have friends and family over, whenever they want, to stay as long as they want; within reason.
So, maybe a $3000 share wouldn't just buy you permission to live there, it would give you space enough to build a house for you and your family.
Thoughts? -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 1:21 AMok - im in a VERY bizarre mood - and so im about to wander off into some obscure metaphors and thoughts... youve been warned... lol
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theres an interesting effect here... and that is - "why the magic $3k?" yardstick. to be fair, a yardstick is exactly used to measure a distance - or in this case a monetary commitment level.
following the metaphor to an extreme, the yard has a historical significance that does not necessarily increase its usefulness as a unit-of-measure. any of the many alternate-and-maybe-related-units (like feet, inches, spans, miles, and furlongs) could be used to equally good effect. thus, i wonder why there is a "need" to redefine the commitment-ability of a participant? (and, to be even MORE extreme - the units might be better based on something more-relevant like "local" currency to purchase a xxxxx [car?]. just like the centimeter became more-standard than the inch awhile ago...)
anyways - regarding the topic at hand...
i had not considered "island fever" as a problem, per se - but a natural issue to ANY of the isolationist ideals that are being espoused during this startup process. it could be "boat fever" or "beach fever" or anything else that will be an issue when this "island" is eventually birthed into reality. and following this new metaphor to its extremes... there are advantages and disadvantages to having a stronger umbilical to the local population and/or the visitors/family that are guests... the "island" will need to go thru all of its natural phases of life - presumably starting with the individuation of the baby-from-its-mother and proceeding thru many challenging phases that hopefully resolve into a perpetuation of the species thru propogation and eventually to its death...
now there is an interesting problem... current ecological thinking is SO entrenched in the concepts of limited-existences that the individuals acting within the ecology are almost always forced into a cradle-to-grave premise. there is some dude (whos name ive forgotten) that has been espousing (and producing) the concept of full-recyclability - namely cradle-to-cradle. he thinks in terms of closed, not open, systems... every waste-product is the fuel-product for another system in the ecology...
presumably, one of the primary tenets of the "island" metaphor was to become self-reliant - and that would (in MY mind) mean to be thinking in terms of cradle-to-cradle existence.
if you change to the "beach" metaphor, you can easily see that the "existence" is about living upon the "edge" of two ecologies. while, for millenia, this edge-existence has produced the most "diverse" ecological changes - this is due to the the cradle-to-grave assumption that the organisms can "take" from one environment and "give" to the other environment (without presuming to worry about the effects of their actions). the "rest of the earth" being the closed-system that it primarily is, then goes thru a natural evolution of dealing with the wastes and fuels that the edge-creature has created in its existence across the boundary...
while it is much "easier" to stay within the confines of the metaphors and ecologies that we were raised in - i believe that the "future" of this ball-of-earth depends more upon the tenets of this cradle-to-cradle (or closed) ecology that im seeing, hearing, and thinking about...
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ok, im tired of this weird meta-think that ive been going thru. bottom line? if there is some reason that the island is NOT gonna work - then by all means, work towards a new locale of a beach... and it even seems like youve thought thru the goals and "decided" which ones can be "bent" for awhile until there is a better time/place to "reframe" the system...
again, if the yardstick you are measuring with is seed-money - then maybe there is something important to be said about it in the goals... do not hide the realities of the situation - but rather acknowledge/embrace them and your "goal of independence" will be founded upon principles that everyone involved-with can stand-behind. america did not want taxation-without-representation and went to a good-deal-of-trouble to achieve that goal (among others).
jeez - im in a weird mood... sorry about the ramble... take care, harold. -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 12:05 PMThere was no magic number. $3000 was based on the cost of the island, the number of people that could fit, and a general concept of what many people could afford.
Way back, I think the original idea was just selling $500 tickets good for 6-months. Then we were at $2k for a while. Now, we're at $3k.
Personally, I think that $3k not just one-person, but allowing for family and guests is a pretty good deal.
I never saw "island fever" as a real problem. It was just one factor that had to be taken into account.
As for cradle-to-cradle, we're primary an art project. But there does seem to be enough room here to work towards real sustainability.
I'm learning as this project goes on. And it seems that it's much easier to find a small group to put in large amounts of money, then to find a large group to put in smaller amounts of money. So, we'll continue to offer $3k shares. But I'm putting more focus on finding a group of Investors to put in $10k or more. At that level, just 7 people (including me) could buy this property outright.
I'm brainstorming as I write this:
What if the initial shares are $2500, and later shares, after we buy the land are $3500? I think there might be a 40% value difference between an unknown, and an established project.
Those who buy first are taking additional risk. Maybe they should get rewarded for that.
Half of the price difference could go to project general funds. Half of the price difference could be given to the those who contributed more than a single share price. But they can chose what they want to do with their money: take it, use it for infrastructure, use it for art funds, or donate it to a Nicaraguan charity.
This is a very new idea for this project. Thoughts on it?
And finally. I'm an optimist who thinks there is very little that is impossible. But there are things that are improbable. I think being ready to buy an island anytime soon, is certainly improbable.
This beachfront property could meet 5 of our 7 original goals.
So, if moving to the beach means we can turn this project into a reality relatively soon, I'm for it.
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 7:30 PMdistract:
Well.... if we're relinquishing most of the extra freedoms we were hoping for, then we will still have a much bigger emphasis on self-expression than on sustainability.
Goal #6
6) The community members should strive to protect the environment and use sustainable energy, however art and fun come first. We would hate to build a place where flamethrowers are discouraged because they're bad for the environment.
Know of any good existing communities in interesting tropical locales that have a focus on big, crazy art?
But it's almost an issue of values. And I'm not sure any other groups would be an exact match for our values.
I'm starting to think of this project more like the Shipyard then anything else. Except that we'd be living there instead of just working there, and we'd be on an amazing beach or island, rather than in a shitty neighborhood of berkeley.
The shipyard is 11,000 square feet. That's the workspace for 30 artists. This plot of land that I posted about here is 350,000 square feet.
www.theshipyard.org/about.html -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Wed, August 13, 2008 - 2:07 PMI would not be against a non-exclussive island location but I don't know much about this region of the country to ahve an opinion one way or the other right now. When I was in Nicaragua however, I do remember seeing properties available on Ometepe which really interested me (and we've discussed in ohter threads). I would definitly be in favour of an oppropriate lot ( large enough for growth and with enough privacy) on Ometepe -
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Re: Thoughts on another piece of property
Wed, August 13, 2008 - 2:48 PMIndigo:
Great to hear from you.
I visited San Juan del Sur when I was last down in Nicaragua. Having your feet in warm sand, with a cool breeze, looking over the pacific is simply amazing. I do think being on a pacific beach would be incredible. That's my personal top choice right now.
But, I'm already planning on checking out two other possibilities when I head back to Nicaragua. The first is a strange little island in an inlet beside the beachfront town of Poneloya. It's hard to tell how nice it is from the photos, and I'm worried about flooding. But it needs to be seen. And, yes, I'll also see what lake front properties are available on Ometepe.
I'll report back to the group will all of the news. We can decide as a group which property makes the most sense.
Ruairi is also talking about heading down in a couple of months to look at the various properties.
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