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I've been delaying posting this, and for that I apologize. But Trae has left the project.
As for that delay, I needed to take some time and reflect on the project. Now, I'm back and remotivated.
Trae still following what's going on, and still supports the project, but can't be an active participant in it right now. This was entirely his choice, and almost entirely for personal reasons. I can't speak for him more than that, so if you have any questions send him a message.
I'm in the process of updating the website so that it's up to date and correct.
As for that delay, I needed to take some time and reflect on the project. Now, I'm back and remotivated.
Trae still following what's going on, and still supports the project, but can't be an active participant in it right now. This was entirely his choice, and almost entirely for personal reasons. I can't speak for him more than that, so if you have any questions send him a message.
I'm in the process of updating the website so that it's up to date and correct.
posted by:
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Oakland Downtown
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 12:40 AMbummers - (hi/bye trae?) i will miss him as the active participant that he is/was...
i was reading the other thread (about different locations) and kinda assume that there might be some gossip to this change that might be interesting to know. otoh, since it does not really affect me (as a bystander) that much - i should not be too nosy...
i have not been over to the wiki in months - so if there is info there, i apologize for not noticing it. i semi-track yalls going-ons primarily thru this tribe.
beyond that, i guess i dont have too much of a thought about this notice. it seems normal/natural to me to have people come/go or become active/passive as time progresses. in particular, among artists, i would think that the desires and preferences adjust to reflect the realities of those who do the creating. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, August 1, 2008 - 11:14 AM
The idea for pursuing that new property came after Trae left, and after a period of reflection.
It's actually all surprisingly gossip free.
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Re: Leadership Change
Sat, February 7, 2009 - 6:21 PMSo it appears that the new leadership has chosen to focus discussions elsewhere... or is the project on hold? No posts since October means what exactly??? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Sun, February 8, 2009 - 3:16 PMMore, more! Forward to FloatingMan Island! -
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, February 9, 2009 - 10:54 PMyeah, I was kind of wondering the same thing..........
maybe instead of an island a thousand acres in a tax free state like Nevada, Washington.........
or an Island where we might not be exposed to pirates, Junta's etc........... -
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Re: Leadership Change
Wed, February 11, 2009 - 5:06 AMinteresting ideas - welcome yall !!!
uhm - i havent been on tribe much either, but i assume adam is around and able to pipe in about any appropriate info. also, i assume yall could (if interested) wander over to the wiki and pursue some hopefully-more-recent info there...
as far as juntas/pirates/other-islands - i was under the impression that there were specific financial and political reasons for the choices initially-made. if necessary, the choices can be revisited (assuming new/different inputs) - but youd have to check with someone more knowledgable about it all - than me. :-)
anyways - welcome folks - it was nice to see a few posts in this tribe when i logged on... it seems that the winter-ice is starting to defrost, and spring is gonna start to get the juices-of-life flowing again... hugs, h.
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Re: Leadership Change
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 5:11 PMHey everyone.
Sorry for the delay in responding.
The break from floatingman was a simple matter of momentum failing us. For a while, we had some good momentum, and then step-by-step it fell away.
I'm still very interested in making this happen. But, I'm going to need help.
Does anyone here have ideas for how to get the momentum going again? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 11:59 AMOur tax dollars that are mostly wasted on stupid crap, actually went for a purpose we can utilize at the following location:
www.cia.gov/library/publ.../geos/nu.html
(Other Central American countries can be found around the same website)
Momentum can be achieved via after the selection of the most appropriate country, imho. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 1:40 PMboar:
Looking back, it seems that Nicaragua was the best choice when we were looking to buy our own private island. If we compromise on that goal, and search for a piece of beachfront property instead then there might be other good options for us.
Do you think that Nicaragua isn't the most appropriate country?
Where are you thinking of?
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Re: Leadership Change
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 4:07 PMSee other post for more detailed information, but according to the research, Mexico, El Salvador, then Belize (in that order).
My personal favorite is El Salvador. And as far as the island idea, me no likey. It's going to be hard enough sourcing things much less adding to the struggle the logistics of boating everything to-and-fro.
Beachfront? Can you say hurricane?? How about tsunami??? Plus, the oppressive temperatures at shoreline just about kill the quality of life even for a Texan imho.
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Re: Leadership Change
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 4:13 PMAdditionally:
1.) Tidal surge harvesting equipment (for generating electricity) is pretty hard to come by.
2.) Fresh water coming off higher elevations are by this point pretty much infested with the refuse of everyone higher up the stream.
3.) Salt breezes eat metal.
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Re: Leadership Change
Sun, March 29, 2009 - 8:16 PMboarhead:
Thanks a lot for that info. It's great. But I do want to add in one bit of caution in looking at that. We are a not-for-profit project. So, our priorities in choosing a place might be very different than a typical businesses. And the single most important, make-or-break, factor for us is the residency requirements. If it's difficult or expensive for foreigners to stay in the country for long periods of time it's a poor fit for us.
Nicaragua was the best fit when we were looking for a private island. If we're looking for some other type of property, another country might be an ever better choice. But the very first thing we need to look into, is which countries are easy to get residency permits or long term for. Do you have any interest in looking into that further?
As for beach front property, the temperature is going to depend on exactly where we are. Tsunamis are very, very uncommon. Hurricanes are a huge problem on the East Coast; not as much on the West Coast. And, it's true that salt water rusts away metal, but that seems like a small price to pay for living on the beach.
I'm strongly of the belief that we need a site that "inspires the imagination" for this project to be a real success. And being on a beautiful beach fits that bill. What are your thoughts on that? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Sun, March 29, 2009 - 8:16 PMLet me ask a broad question in here. These are the currently described goals for Floatingman:
1) Floatingman will be a full-time intentional community based loosely on concepts from Burning Man.
2) Floatingman must be somewhere that "excites the imagination".
3) Floatingman needs to be near, on, or under water. After more than a decade of visiting the playa, we believe the Burning Man community should start experimenting in a new element.
4) Floatingman should be somewhere remote so that we have our privacy, but should not be so remote that it's completely inaccessible.
5) The community should be as free from legal restrictions and rules as possible.
6) The community members should strive to protect the environment and use sustainable energy, however art and fun come first. We would hate to build a place where flamethrowers are discouraged because they're bad for the environment.
7) Participants will follow the values of Self-expression, Self-reliance, Freedom, Respect, and Gifting (proposed).
Do we still support those goals?
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, March 30, 2009 - 6:07 PMNot for profit: By whos definition? I think that's a noble intention but countries outside the USA have different definitions of not-for-profit and although internally, we might still refer to the project as such, having Country-X place the project in that same category may or may not be the best idea (totally depends on what country we're talking about).
Residency requirements: Again, each country has it's own requirements and yes, Nicaragua's process is far easier than (for instance) Costa Rica. BUT, most give at least 90 day visas that can be renewed indefinitely by a little trip to the neighboring country. This should be looked at and kept in mind but should not be a reason to avoid a country.
Earth quakes / tsunamis: Yes, the later are quite rare but the former happen all the time in Central America (CA)... it's right on the edge of 2 Teutonic plates, hence the mountain range that runs through (and basically forms) CA.
My 2cs on beaches: I love to visit them. Great for fishing. Nice for surfing. Consistent wind source. Bad to terrible soil. Bad to terrible fresh water. Higher insect populations. Insufferable temperature. Easy access for people (both good guys and bad guys). Questionable maritime laws. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, March 31, 2009 - 4:38 AMjust a pip from the peanut-gallery...
the coastline of texas (ie, houston and galveston on down towards brownsville) is quite a different animal than the coastline in california (from san francisco on down thru san diego - for instance). now, i havent done my geography homework, so you might be correct about the 'oppressiveness' of much of the central-american (particularly gulf-of-mexico) coasts ... however, even within a general-area - there might well be micro-climates that need to be explored/understood firsthand... nothing like a small mountain-range along one of those tectonic-plates to affect the local-weather... lol.
either way - gotta admire your energy and enthusiasm - so keep the comments coming - and maybe something can get 'sorted out' so that this project can get 'back on track' to becoming a successful (by some defn) endeavor.
hugs, h.
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Re: Leadership Change
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 1:04 PMboarhead:
I simply meant that our project is, by our own definition, not intended to make a profit so our priorities in choosing a place might be quite a bit different than for-profit businesses.
If the immigration policy for a country is as you describe, it's fine for us. But if it's impossible for us to stay for long periods of time, then the country is a no-go for us. It's just something we have to check for any place that we consider.
As for beaches, I think that harold described it right. We can't make generalizations. There are all sorts of microclimates. Some beaches are incredible hot, miserable, and full of bugs. Other beaches are simply lovely.
Here's the biggest question though. If this project isn't on the waterfront, then what do you see it as? What's the point of it?
And, I'm sorry, but I'm unconvinced that momentum will naturally pick up once we've picked a more appropriate country. What else do you think can be done to get the ball rolling again? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 8:56 PMAgreed, micro climates are very real and can dramatically affect quality of life.
From my perspective, "floating" doesn't really have to be a literal translation, nor does "island". I think creating an intentional community based on the principles set out in one of the original posts here is right on track and still can be achieved inland... somewhere.
Momentum: The world is a large place. Looking everywhere will just cause Evaluation Stagnation imho. Pick a country or a couple and focus in on those areas because I promise you, there are tons of great locations in every country. Water though... the availability of a fresh, clean source should be the top priority... the rest can be created. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 8:18 PMboarhead:
> I think creating an intentional community based on the principles set out in one of the original posts here is right on track and still can be achieved inland... somewhere.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of water for three reasons.
1. It's going to be great to start experimenting with art in a truly new element.
2. 99.9% of the people on the planet are crowded into 30% of the surface area. The rest of it is water. And so, I'm looking forwards to phase X of the project, where we move it from the land to a ship or floating platform.
3. I think it's going to be much easier to find a place that really inspires the imagination, if we're right on the water.
How do you feel about that last one? And, I don't know your background, but have you ever been out in the middle of the playa with only a small group? When you're out in the middle and surrounded by this great flat desert, the playa is truly an awe inspiring place. And, I attribute a lot of the success of early burningman to simply picking a location that inspired the imagination. It really helped the creativity flow. For me, I think this is key.
What are your thoughts on that?
Also, what do you think that advantages are to picking a place outside the of the US, other than being able to afford a really awe inspiring piece of property?
As for the momentum, I'm still hoping for more ideas. We picked a spot. We thought it was pretty damn good. We got a bit of momentum, but not enough to make this project happen. Has anything changed?
Is the economic depression going to kill us, or will it help us? Are there now more people than ever who are ready and willing to flee the US at least for a while?
That was a bit of a ramble, but I hope that there are some good questions in there.
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 3:02 PMYes, water IS the final frontier, but as such, there are things that will make that a reality very difficult:
1.) Pirates: they do indeed exist... and they have guns... lots of them... and coupled with a lack of concern for political correctness = disaster.
2.) Mother Nature: Storms on the Playa get you dusty or muddy. Storms at sea will drown you (yea, like fer reals dead).
3.) Raw materials: UPS, etc. do not have active deliveries scheduled for Lat/Long coordinates in international waters for very good reasons.
4.) Expensive: It's exponentially more expensive to own 100 square feet of land than the same size floating object.
5.) Nicaragua Island: Yes, a great spot in a pretty good country. I would have been happy if that worked out.
6.) Inspiration of the the Imagination: The "best spot" shouldn't be contingent on this. If inmates can be inspired to create in the confines of their personal hell hole, we as free people should be able to be inspired by ANY location. On the other hand, my imagination is helped by the though of any other place besides this liability of a country, this obamination I currently find myself living in.
7.) Great Depression, Version 2: It is hurting everyone and everything, include those wanting to be involved in something great. BUT, it might just be the catalyst those with at least something left (assets).
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 10:53 PMboar:
As for the living on the sea stuff, you're preaching to the choir. I agree that, if not impossible, it's exceptionally difficult and dangerous. I see moving to a beach as step 1, and then after 5-10 years of living next to the sea and building floating structures, some of us might be ready to head off across the seas.
But if we start somewhere inland, we would be at step 1, we'd be at step negative 2.
Here's a bit of inspiration:
Crazy people who travel the seas in rafts built of scraps.
www.floatingneutrinos.com/
And these guys are trying to jump directly to step 10, building huge floating platforms. Though, they're also having a floating party near Sacramento in October.
www.seasteading.org/
If you don't like America, then this won't be for you. But other than that, if you're okay with an inland piece of property, that might not completely inspire the imagination on it's own, there's another group called permaburn who already has property in NE California. You can move on and start building today. (I don't know why, but the photos on the site are currently gone.)
permaburn.org/
Let's keep thinking of ways to get the momentum going again here. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 7, 2009 - 3:45 PMI've been in contact with a guy in Costa Rica that has an completely off-grid complex of maybe 10 buildings that is accessible via boat only... although it's technically not an island, there just isn't any roads to the place and it's just a 10 minute boat ride to it, and yes, it's on the ocean (from sea-level to about 200' above).
realestate.escapeartist.com/P-2013083/
Half a million and ready to go right now. How's this for inspiration? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:57 PMYou have a 1/2 million dollars? :-)
It's actually not quite on the ocean. I checked the map and it's in a very interesting spot in a bay, inside another bay, along the ocean. It's extremely close to the ocean as the crow flies, but a long way around by water. Overall, from the descriptions of the wildlife is does sound wonderful though.
What are your thoughts on buying property that already has lots of construction on it vs. buying empty property?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that you don't have 1/2 million dollars. And, it seems we could stretch our money a lot further if we buy the land seperately, and then do our own construction. Particularly, if we're willing to live in something less than first world standard of living.
There is also the complexity of creating a community. If we bought property with a bunch of buildings, how would they be divided among the community. Probably a very solvable problem, but one that needs to be thought about. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 8:58 PM
Oh... map link:
maps.google.com/maps
You can even see the boat in this link. If you zoom out, then you can see exactly the surrounding area and the lack of direct ocean access.
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 9:26 AMIf I had 1/2 mil, I'd already be living there.
Since it's quite large parcel, and any property in the running should be. One of the benefits of this particular property is that it already has base functionality to live sustainably and off-grid. I'd guess it could support about 10-15 full-timers right now and those early-adopters would obviously get the already constructed buildings. Jonny-come-laters would have to build their own, that's the incentive to be in at the ground-floor in any such venture.
Another benefit is that it's surrounded on 3 sides (givertake) with maritime property (undevelopable). As for Ocean access, I think I recall that tides are around 8-10 feet which when at high tide, you have access, when at low, you don't.
Unless it's a working farm, Permaculture plantings would have to start immediately and would take years to fully develop. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 2:04 PM
My tendencies are very egalitarian. I'd prefer a project where all people are equal. But, I'm very willing to compromise on that if that's what it takes to make this project happen.
If you already know about Costa Rican maritime law, can you explain it? It would save me reseaching it. I'm also curious (worried) about the property title. What's the story about many properties in Costa Rica not being titled? How do we handle that?
With 10 people, it's $50,000 each. Does that sound feasible to you? Personally, I don't think so but I might be wrong. What are your ideas for fundraising/recruiting owners? -
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, April 13, 2009 - 3:49 PMMaritime law in Central America (nutshell): You have limited exclusive use to areas from high-water line to X feet from high-water line (can't build permanent (temp is okay) buildings, can't cut trees down, can grow stuff and manicure, use as recreation areas.
Property titles (again nutshell for CA): Pay a reputable lawyer to research title before pursuing a purchase.
Investment buy in: $50k is damn cheap for a place to live on for the rest of your life wouldn't you think? If anyone thinks it doesn't take a pretty large chunk of capital to make this happen, they are deluding themselves. But yes, this is definitely a problem for most and to make it more difficult, a majority of property deals in CA are CASH deals (financing is hard to get and very expensive when possible).
Funding ideas: be creative and do lots of planning. If anyone wanting to be a part of this have not done a lot of creative thinking and been planning on being a part of something like this for some time now (think years here), they are quite a ways behind at this point. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Mon, April 13, 2009 - 11:55 PMboar:
> Property titles (again nutshell for CA): Pay a reputable lawyer to research title before pursuing a purchase.
I know a bit about property titles from looking into things in Nicaragua. But, I saw this one particular quote in your ad that gave me some concern:
"This property is presently registered in the Costa Rican land registry. It has not been titled. Most land in Costa Rica is not titled for various reasons. A good registry is viewed by Costa Rican law as equal to a title with a few exceptions."
I have very little faith in real estate agents telling the truth. Do you know anything about this?
> Investment buy in: $50k is damn cheap for a place to live on for the rest of your life wouldn't you think?
Not really, but I lived in Egypt for far too long. If you can find other people to invest, that's great. But that's personally more than I would want to put in. The great thing about Central America is the weather. You don't need a nice house, because with perfect weather is just makes more sense to spend time outdoors.
So, I'd much rather buy an empty plot of land at a much cheaper price, and live in a yurt for a while, and eventually build a small hut. Or,
I've also considering buying a sailboat, sailing it down, mooring it at our dock, and living on it. You can buy ocean going sailboats that can sleep 2 comfortably, or 4 uncomfortably for between $3,000 - $10,000.
sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa...046.html
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 7:31 AMHmmm... I didn't see that comment about that particular property not be officially titled. Yes, definitely a point of concern. I also agree with real estate agents as being shady (ESPECIALLY Central American ones).
As for buying unimproved land, yes, I'm all about that too as being a carpenter I can build my own home... but most people don't have this skill-set so the onus would then fall on those who can build to build for everyone (or at least oversee).
lol. Yurts. That's my next construction project. I've put together quite a in depth spreadsheet to help myself (and anyone else too) figure out the geometry behind the design and can be found on my website at:
www.firewaterventures.com/image...rt.xls
If someone sees something wrong with a calculation or something I've missed, please lemme know!
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 1:15 PMboar:
I don't know your history of burningman, or really much about you at all. But, it's great to hear that you're a carpenter.
Here's my experience.
I went for the first time in 1995. None of us had a clue. Surviving in the middle of the playa (and it really was the middle back then), with huge temperature swings, and massive winds really a bit of a challenge. How many tents were completely blown away? But, the community as a whole very quickly figured out what worked well, and shared that knowledge.
So, if we're building from scratch, it would be good to have some people who know what they're doing, and some other people who are willing to experiment. You don't need a carpenter if you're making a pressed earth house. And, since we are a community, I expect that we'll help each other out. To build a permanent, waterproof, structure are different, and bigger challenges, but I have faith we'll manage.
Here's another question for you:
How important do you think privacy is?
Is that something that you'd be willing to sacrifice in order to make this project happen?
I checked the ad for the beachfront property in Nicaragua again. The price has actually dropped. It's 1/10 the size of the property in Costa Rica, and it's 1/10 the price. It's also _right_ on the Pacific. For $25k down, or $50k in total we could buy it right now. Those seem like much more feasible numbers.
www.nicabeachfront.com/cosi1.htm
maps.google.com/
Fresh water could be a problem, there's already a well on the neighboring property. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 2:31 PMI would be optimum for every person involved to be both specialized in a couple areas, and have some knowledge in all areas (in case someone who is the primary source in know-how in an area gets hit by a "bus").
Privacy:
The parcels listed on the link below have no privacy currently. Just because there is no current neighbors does not equate to privacy in my book. I think more importantly though, it's community that's more important than privacy. Any such project like this needs to have both privacy for security reasons as well as strong ties with the community just outside the projects doorsteps... each strengthens the other. Additionally, with no neighbors, you have no community and thus, less security. No, I would not sacrifice either component.
Nica beach property:
Why is it that is currently looks like it does? Was it leveled by heavy machinery? Was it deforested then used for grazing? Is the land contaminated somehow so that nothing grows on it? What about the land around the land... what's on that? Is the land to the north of the google image owned by the government? How active is that volcano? How is the road to the property? Where is the nearest town?
Sorry for the flood of questions but...
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 2:42 PMholy driveway batman!
Have you seen the plat for 8N?!? They've done an extremely good job of pointing out exactly where the land-for-sale is... but in doing so, also point out that it's about 115' wide, and probably over a 1200' long. There is a good reason this one is still for sale... it's a runway! -
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 3:03 PMboar:
> There is a good reason this one is still for sale... it's a runway!
Yeah, I realized that. But I don't see any reason we couldn't work with that space.
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Re: Leadership Change
Tue, April 14, 2009 - 2:58 PMboar:
I'm a bit confused about your points about privacy and community. Could you state them again.
Privacy was originally a goal for this project. If we bought that strip of land in Nicaragua, we wouldn't have much privacy. I'm okay with that.
As for community, if we have neighbors it could add to the feeling of community, or take away from it. But whatever, I want to make sure that we have enough people participating in this to have a feeling of community, even if we're on an isolated spot somewhere.
> Was it deforested then used for grazing? Is the land contaminated somehow so that nothing grows on it?
Look at the surrounding area. There are even some woods directly adjacent to it. My guess is that the trees were removed for farming or grazing.
Questions are always good.
> Is the land to the north of the google image owned by the government?
There isn't really anything north of these plots of land. Just that sand bar.
www.nicabeachfront.com/cosi-topo1.jpg
> How active is that volcano?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosig%C3%BCina
> How is the road to the property?
There is road access directly to the back of the property.
> Where is the nearest town?
Town or village? If you look at the image I liked to above, you can see that there are some nearby villages where at minimum we can buy stables.
Here's another option to think about. It's a small private island, immediate adjacent to the town of Poneloya. $55k.
www.nicaraguarealty.com/listin...2/1/112
I know less about it, and the pictures are terrible, but it is another option to consider. It's shown in the middle of this map:
maps.google.com/maps
And, as a side note, I've only looked into beachfront properties in Nicaragua. It would be worth doing a broader search and see what we can find.
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Re: Leadership Change
Wed, May 6, 2009 - 1:44 PMShould be required reading for anyone wishing to become a founder:
Creating a Life Together: Practical tools to grow ecovillages and intentional communities.
by Diana Leafe Christian
NOT a suger coated look at the problems and effort this sort of undertaking involves. Very heavy dose of reality. -
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Re: Leadership Change
Fri, May 8, 2009 - 2:14 PMboar:
Thanks for that. I'll add it to my reading list.
Here's the summary from a review for anyone who doesn't have time to read it.
* Identify your community vision and create vision documents.
* Choose a fair, participatory decision-making process appropriate for your group. If you choose consensus, get trained in it.
* Make clear agreements - in writing. This includes choosing an appropriate legal entity for owning land [or a dwelling] together.
* Learn good communication and group process skills. Make clear communication and resolving conflicts a priority.
* In choosing cofounders and new members, select for emotional maturity.
* Learn the head skills and heart skills you need to know.
* Not a dream for dilettantes
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