Floatingman Island's topics - tribe.net

Federation of Microstate Entrepreneurs

2008-05-11T07:41:25Z

http://groups.google.com/group/fome_list

I'm trying to get leaders from all of these projects together in one place to discuss what it's going to take to get one of these things off the ground.

I'm getting increasingly serious about doing this, for reasons noted here:

http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/global/free-guptastan-583

Would very much appreciate somebody heading over to discuss the issues of the day. I'm also trying to get some of the liberty island people on board, and the Seasteading folks, and so on. As with all of these things, all it takes is one successful effort to legitimize the entire field - we're cooperating here, not competing.

Vinay

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Opening the project up to the Nicaraguans

2008-04-25T16:16:59Z

Peter:

"But know that, even on an island, you /will/ have a relationship with local folks, and unless you integrate them tightly into your project from before day 1 (and probably even then), rumours will develop about the crazy hippies having free love parties on the island out there. Ask Bruno at El Zopilote in Madroñal, on Maderas, about that."

"People will not understand what you are doing, and they will invent stories. Their opinion of you will be based in no small part on what they feel you've done for them and for their community, and the rapore you've developed with them. Given that you're talking about buying a large island off Granada, "they" refers to the people of Granada in general (Nicas and foreigners) as well as the whole South-West quadrant of Nicaragua to a lesser extent. You will struggle with this, and there is no easy solution. "

The island is much closer to Chontales than Granada, but I think Peter makes a very valid point.

Once the project is underway, I'm pondering the idea of having "open houses" every couple of months where we invite the local community to come out and see the island and what we're doing. (It's a day where we should probably dress up.) This would be a start at least.

Maybe like good neighbors, we could even provide some transport from Puerto Diez and have a BBQ. Is there better way is there to befriend and get to know your neighbors than having a BBQ?

As for doing good in the country, I think the best possible scenario would be us simply leading by example. If we come up with great new ways to adapt local construction techniques, or to cheaply provide sustainable energy, then let's just build it for ourselves. In these "open houses", we could let the locals can come out and see how we're living. Then if any of them are interested in doing these things for themselves, we could help them.

This is pretty different from anything that we've proposed before. What do people think?

posted in Floatingman Island - 13 replies

Reminder: Meeting this Sunday - Noon PST

2008-04-15T18:32:57Z

Just a reminder that there is a meeting this Sundat at Noon PST.

Hope you can make it.

If you're new to these meetings, we meet on skype. Send a friend request to "geekeasy" before the meeting.

Cheers!

posted in Floatingman Island - 4 replies

Ecovillages

2008-04-14T18:26:13Z

At todays meeting we briefly discussed looking into the Ecovillage network as possible contacts that could help or join us. Their mission is based around creating a sustainable future by using their network of sustainable ecovillages to further knowledge and participation. Their objectives seems to be similar in enough ways to ours, since we intend to use and share sustainable living techniques with the people who live around the island.

Their main site can be found here:

www.ecovillage.org

The Ecovillage Network of the Americas' about page can be found here:

www.ena.ecovillage.org/English/about/index.html

If anyone has any thoughts on how to bring our project closer to completion through this organization or how Floating Man contribute to Ecovillages and visa versa, post away.

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

april meeting

2008-04-01T04:25:39Z

hey, so there should be a meeting april 6th. but i will be out of town that whole weekend. can anything be rescheduled? the following weekend i should be free, but if some other time works out better i will try to work something out.

this is getting into the burn season, and ive actually got a lot of things coming up. so this might come up again. here lately i constantly seem to be running from one thing to the next, and constantly late. :\

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

The Island _might_ be sold / other properties

2008-03-30T14:56:27Z

I called up the realtor to talk to him about the property title. I was hoping that he'd give me the owner's name so that our lawyer could check the property title.

When I get ahold of him, he has news for me. Someone else is interesting in buying the property. They have put a small deposit on it, to put a hold on it for the next 3 months. After that he said, if it's not sold, we can talk again about checking the property title.

So, it's not definite at all. But it's possible that the island wil be sold very soon.

We probably should start looking at other properties.

In some ways, this might actually be good for us. Trying to _start_ by creating a community of 100 people is indeed extremely ambitious. It might be better if we first buy a cheaper property (that still meets our goal of 'inspiring the imagination'), and then after we prove that this project will be a success, look for bigger more expensive properties.

And, searching today I might have found one:

http://www.nicaraguarealty.com/listings/details/14/1/112

I think that this is a link to it on google maps:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Poneloya+nicaragua&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=66.964699,100.195313&ie=UTF8&ll=12.387455,-87.049227&spn=0.020623,0.024462&t=h&z=15

I didn't make it to Poneloya when I was in Nicaragua, but neighboring Leon is nice. And it's an extremely interesting region full of volcanoes.

The nature of the project would certainly change a bit if we were closer to civilization, with a bit less privacy, but that's both good and bad for us.

Thoughts?

posted in Floatingman Island - 10 replies

nicaragua...

2008-03-11T17:11:59Z

okay, honest question here... do you feel the project being located in nicaragua is drawing more people, or turning more people off to the idea?

im really not sure. i love the idea of doing this in on a tropical island far from anything most of us know. the closest city being colonial grenada, the second (?) oldest city in the americas charms me. rainforests and active volcanoes as the backdrop of our adventure inspires me. knowing there is a point within a daytrek that you can look out and see two vast oceans awes me. and it having a low cost of living, and what we will bring to the economy says it has a real chance of working out...

but this project has been from the very beginning a stepping stone out into the world. one step past BM... then two... and who knows where we are by then? this was never an end in itself (though there is no reason it couldnt be for some). choosing a foreign country, and one with a bad reputation (deserved or not), brings real challenges to the project's success. it scares people that would otherwise join up. and if this is simply a stepping stone, if we could make the project happen faster elsewhere, that might be a more logical step. once we can make it happen once, our credibility might be enough to convince those people we scared off before, or we might have enough people already onboard and ready to take the next step.

i might be willing to take smaller steps towards a dream, as long as those steps are taking me forward.

consider, as an example: we never really even considered an island in america, for a variety of reasons; arguably the main concern being that there were no islands of a decent size for sale at a price we could work with in a climate we wanted. there just wasnt an option, so it wasnt considered. then we got to the nica island... and started considering, for a moment, lakefront property instead of just islands. now that opens up a lot more options. just randomly skimming around for 15 minutes or so i found several lakefront properties in new hampshire (which is the focus of the free state project, look that up if you havent heard of it http://www.freestateproject.org/ ) in the range of 80 acres, for the price of the grenada island or less. 80 acres is almost four times the size of the island, which means we could 'support' 4 times the number of people, reducing each persons share cost to $1000 or so, to buy it outright. think we could find 400 people with that kind of cash willing to take the plunge? a wider search would invariably find better properties, this was simply an example.

it would be a compromise on just about all counts... but a significant step towards a greater dream. it would not excite the imagination as much (though any community that is attempting to make year round the vibe one feels at BM is pretty exciting in my book). it may not be as remote as our own island (but then again there are some pretty remote pieces of water). it would probably not be tropical. it would be less scary. it would be more economical (in some ways, not in others). it would not be as much of an adventure. people might also be able to make a commute into work (is that a good or a bad thing? both?). it would be less of a gamble.

and it might stand a greater chance of happening sooner.

posted in Floatingman Island - 21 replies

Meeting Sunday

2008-03-08T23:22:34Z

Just a reminder that we have a meeting this Sunday at Noon PST.

We meet on skype. If you want to join in, just send a friend request to 'geekeasy' before the meeting.

As for the agenda, here's what I'm thinking.

1) Q & A session about Nicaragua

2) Thoughts about other properties - particularly the one near Poneloya. (http://www.nicaraguarealty.com/listings/details/14/1/112)

3) How to raise the energy, and get things moving faster.

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

New member..

2008-03-07T06:20:57Z

Hey guys,

I'm Ruairi, from Ireland! :-) I met Adam in Dahab on the Red Sea in Egypt about a year ago now.. Thats where I first heard about the project, It sounds like really something amazing! Its a shame the actual island might be up for sale.. but never say never! The other one seems pretty sweet too :-)
I wasn't able to make the last meeting but I should be around this Sunday on Skype..
I'm actually studying an MBA in Budapest, Hungary right now so I'm awful busy with school.. but I hope to be able to contribute more in the coming weeks as school will ease off soon (I hope!)

Chat soon,

Ruairi :-)

posted in Floatingman Island - 3 replies

Photos from Nicaragua

2008-03-04T08:18:06Z

Trae and Vinay both asked for me to do more reporting of what life is like here in Nicaragua.

I'll try to tell more stories and such. But let me start by posting photos.

Here are photos that I've taken in Nicaragua in the past few weeks.

http://flickr.com/photos/22747036@N02/

posted in Floatingman Island - 26 replies

Creating Creatures

2008-02-28T04:39:09Z

Wow. Just wow.

I've seen a bit of this guys animals before, but I've never heard him talk about them.

An island in Nicaragua would have pretty regular wind. This gives a bit of the idea of the amazing things that can be done with windpowered art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b694exl_oZo

And a bit more about the geometry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CufN43By79s&NR=1

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

This is great

2008-02-28T01:33:26Z

Really, what a stellar idea. I was wondering if anyone involved has any experience with intentional communities or sustainable building/design? While I love the idea, it seems to me there is a fundamental difference between building a permanent community and a TAZ like Burning Man. For instance, it is hard to imagine a zero impact community. I mean, I love pack it in pack it out, but how is this any different than a garbage collection service if you are building a community? Not that I am knocking this project. I would love to get involved in this. I'm just wondering how much of this has been worked out or even thought about.

Mitchell

posted in Floatingman Island - 6 replies

On local geography

2008-02-28T01:25:16Z

So I apologize for probably not learning enough about your project before posting, or distinguishing clearly between posts from people who are committed to the project and newcomers like me.

Let me start by saying that a bunch of capable, idealistic people who put their heads together and committed to Nicaragua could be a boon to the country and its people, who could use an infusion of hope. Should this project be committed to local people to the degree that Burners Without Borders is, with a committed base of people, even a small group, it would make a real difference in peoples' lives. Living on an island seems in conflict with that vision, but I'm willing to give y'all the benefit of the doubt.

In fact I wasn't able to find a vision statement on your website or the wiki--if there is one, please direct me to it. If there is not, it seems like you are jumping the gun considerably in addressing most practical concerns.

I must also make a plea that people stop butchering the names of local landmarks. They're spelled "Ometepe" (three e's), "Maderas," "Concepción," and "Mombacho." It made me extremely uncomfortable to hear people talking about the possibility of buying an island in a land they have not spent enough time in to know how the names of the places.

I guess my point is that this effort really needs to grow out of a significant understanding of and appreciation for the specific context you want to work with, on the one hand, and a well-articulated vision of what you're trying to achieve on the other. I'm not seeing that. The two of course develop to some extent together. I would expect the process leading up to commitment (actual purchase of land, e.g.) to take at least 2-3 years.

If there remain serious concerns about Mombacho or Concepción erupting, I can probably dredge up contact information for a gentleman at INETER, the Nicaraguan governmental body that (among other things) monitors volcanos and assesses the risks posed by them.

I'm happy to continue this conversation, but feel like I should stop here before I ride too far on my initial assumptions.

Good luck and take care,
Peter Abrahamsen

posted in Floatingman Island - 8 replies

March Meeting - Mar 1 (8??)

2008-02-27T20:26:30Z

We have a meeting scheduled for next Saturday at noon PST.

I am going to be in Vegas for a wedding, and can't easily make the meeting. Does anyone have any problems with rescheduling the meeting for the 8th?

posted in Floatingman Island - 4 replies

Meeting Minutes (sort of) from February Meeting

2008-02-09T17:10:12Z

We had a meeting scheduled for February 2nd. The only attendees were Trae and I.

I usually post a meeting reminder the day before a meeting. I was busy traveling, and so that didn't happen this time, which probably didn't help.

Trae had some questions about boating on the lake. I agreed to set out that afternoon to try to get some answers.

Other than that, we just talked briefly about the lack of energy and motivation on the project. Trae's guess was that in part it's due to the key to members of the project being relatively absent from the tribe recently.

But does anyone else have thoughts on that? Or thoughts on how we can build motivation and energy.

Down here in Nicaragua, I see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's starting to feel like this project is going to come into fruition, and it's going to happen relatively soon. But I don't know if anyone else shares that view.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
-Adam

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Greeters

2008-02-05T05:25:31Z

Do any of you long-timer lurkers or occasional posters want to help out by serving as a greeter, welcoming people to this tribe, and answering any questions they have?

posted in Floatingman Island - 11 replies

New Member

2008-02-04T16:47:22Z

I think this is an excellent idea. I've spent a lot of time in Nicaragua and have been planning to move there in about five years. The people are wonderful and the cost of living is low. However, since poverty is so prevalent, security for the island should be a consideration.

posted in Floatingman Island - 2 replies

Interesting Documentary

2008-02-01T22:04:35Z

This is an hour long documentary which sheds a little light on Nicaraguas recent (American shaped) past ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bqvLErbfKY&NR=1

posted in Floatingman Island - 2 replies

Adam, you may have a problem.

2008-01-25T05:41:48Z

I sincerely question the actual viability of the proposed Floatingman project for two potential obstacles which I don’t think engineering genius can overcome. These two obstacles lie close to the proposed Floatingman Island, and are called Omatepe and Mambacho. They’re both VOLCANOES. Omatepe is active. According to records, since 1888 it’s erupted 17 or more separate times, the most recent eruptions just last year on May 27 and Dec. 27.

I was skeptical of the Floatingman project at first, but became intrigued by the idea, a little. I started looking at the website and the tribe, still skeptical, but saw what was proposed to be attempted. At this point, the alarm bells went off in my head.

I saw the concrete walkways, which the site said would be removed possibly for potential building material. Why were they there in the first place? As a geologist, I started reading up on the area of Lake Nicaragua, and all of the sudden there were volcanoes staring me in the face.

Next question: were any of the volcanoes active? What effects could they inflict on a human settlement? And more alarm bells went off in my head. Questions were answered.

The concrete walkways on Floatingman Island were to keep people’s feet dry, because with torrential rain from hurricanes and typhoons (yep, you get both, from the Atlantic and Pacific sides), volcanic debris (which the island is formed from) slides down hill in the form of debris flows or lahars, as they’re called. This debris, after it becomes weathered, is a very sticky clay. Like I’d want to walk to my house with 10 pounds of mud on each boot…..lol

The more I read, the more alarmed I became. Lake Nicaragua has the potential for a tsunami from an eruption OR from a debris flow from the Conception volcano on Omatepe. Hey, it’s great to hike around jungles with volcanoes, but make sure they aren’t active.

Here’s links to some literature and pictures for your perusal:

General location maps of volcanoes in Nicaragua.-
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Nicaragua/Maps/map_nicaragua_volcanoes.html

USGS Open-File report on Conception volcano
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Nicaragua/Publications/OFR01-457/OFR01-457.pdf

plate 1 for OFR 457
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Nicaragua/Publications/OFR01-457/OFR01-457_plate_1.pdf

USGS Open-File Report on Mambacho volcano
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Nicaragua/Publications/OFR01-455/OFR01-455.pdf

plate 1 for OFR 455
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/Nicaragua/Publications/OFR01-455/OFR01-455_plate_1.pdf

Article quoting Nicaraguan volcanologist that a major eruption of Conception volcano could happen:
http://volcano-eruption.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_archive.html

link to an article on volcanogenetic tsunamis in Lake Nicararagua. Emphasizes substantial inland flooding due to shoreline profiles.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t6166507t2q67101/

I'm curious, with such PRIME real estate (location, location, location is the rule), why does only the caretaker live there right now??/

posted in Floatingman Island - 23 replies

Marketing News

2008-01-24T15:36:31Z

I really should have thought of mailing him earlier, but an old college buddy of mine has been the head of marketing for the iBook line, and for Tivo. I know some of my inadequacies, and marketing is one of them. This guy knows marketing.

I sent him a quick message asking him how we could better spread the word about Floatingman. He is swamped with work until the 28th, but he likes the idea of the project, he is going to see what ideas he can come up for us, plus he is considering joining himself.

His first bit of advise was to spread the word virally - Ask all of your friends to post about Floatingman in their blogs and to post links on facebook. "The viral effect of some of these things is staggering".

I'm in the process of creating on a new flier to hand out here in Nicaragua. In addition to asking people to check out our website, I'm also going to ask them to mail their friends, put us in their blogs, or link to us from facebook. That could start instantly giving us international exposure.

Another college friend of mine was the project manager for the iPhone. She's not in marketing, but she should know lots of people within Apple (including Steve Jobs). I'll ask her to spread the word within Apple. Apple employees should be generally like minded, creative, people.

And, I'm going to think about who I know within google.

posted in Floatingman Island - 10 replies

human rights violations, mostly against women and children.

2008-01-23T15:03:57Z

here are a few links and facts to consider for life in nicaragua

woman have no rights to a safe abortion in nic., even if they're lives are in danger. nic. has been letting women die over easily cured ectopic pregnancies, because doctors don't want to ruin their careers by breaking the law. there is no exception for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest, or if the mother is 8 years old.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6089718.stm

"Doctors frequently see women coming in with infections, many likely brought on by illegal abortions that they refuse to disclose for fear they might be punished, said Dr. Carla Cerrato. Because the people with some medical training who used to do illegal abortions have disappeared, Cerrato said, women more frequently take drugs or pull the fetus out on their own using wires or other crude objects."

"MANAGUA, Nicaragua - Two weeks after Olga Reyes danced at her wedding, her bloated and disfigured body was laid to rest in an open coffin — the victim, her husband and some experts say, of Nicaragua’s new no-exceptions ban on abortion.
Law student Reyes, 22, was one of the three confirmed fatalities. She knew something was horribly wrong, and went with her husband to their small town’s medical center. They were sent to Bertha Calderon maternity hospital, more than an hour away in Managua. There, Perez said, Reyes was given a cursory exam, sent home and told to return the next day.

"By that time, the bleeding and cramping were worse. Perez said he rushed her to a hospital in nearby Leon, but after she had an ultrasound that confirmed her condition (confirming the fetus was still alive), they left her bent over and in agony for hours in a waiting room. When a doctor at a shift change saw her condition, she was rushed into surgery. She suffered three heart attacks and an exploratory surgery."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21601045/

from a report by the us state dept on human rights violations:
"Violence against women, including domestic abuse and rape, remained a concern. Salary discrimination against women in the labor force is endemic. Violence against children and child prostitution continued. Discrimination against indigenous people also occurred. Child labor continued to be a problem. The violation of worker rights in free trade zones continued. There were several documented reports of trafficking in women and girls for the purpose of sexual exploitation."

"A leading human rights NGO, the Nicaraguan Center for Human Rights (CENIDH), received 293 complaints of torture or degrading treatment by the authorities during the first half of the year and verified 232 of these. "

**note, nic. has approx 5 million people, this is like, if the state of wisconsin had a total of 232 complaints in six months of human rights abuses.***

"Captain Francisco Orozco, chief of police in Rosita, Northern Autonomous Atlantic Region (RAAN), was accused of raping a 13-year-old girl at the police station. The girl's mother had brought her to the police to press rape charges against the girl's stepfather. Orozco allegedly told the mother to leave the room so he could interview the girl. A medical forensic exam revealed evidence of previous abuse as well as of a recent rape, which they forwarded for further forensic analysis."

"a 29-year-old woman pressed charges against policeman Andres Montes for attempted rape while she was sleeping outside city hall offices in Siuna, RAAN, on August 25. She claimed that public defender Gloria Garcia suggested that she drop the charges to avoid negative consequences against her 14-year-old son, who was detained by the police at the time on other charges. Garcia allegedly took the victim to the police station and made her sign a release exonerating Montes. Montes was charged with rape in a local court. The trial, scheduled for December 22, was delayed and remained pending at year's end."

"Casa Alianza and the Human Rights Ombudsman's Office published a survey of 85 underaged detainees throughout the penal system. According to the survey, the police did not inform over 21 percent of the respondents at the time of their arrest why they were being detained. The police allegedly mistreated 47 percent, and 48 percent said that they were detained 3 days or more before seeing a judge. Half said they were not aware of being assigned a defense attorney, and 24 percent said they were incarcerated with adults. "

this goes on and on at http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27906.htm

"In the past year, the Embassy has noted a gradual increase in the use of armed violence against resident and visiting U.S. citizens. "

"Dengue fever is endemic in Nicaragua. Currently, no vaccine or specific medication is available to prevent or treat Dengue fever."

"Tap water is not considered safe in Nicaragua. All persons should drink only bottled water"

travel.state.gov/travel/ci...s_985.html

they not only have volcanoes to worry about, nicaragua has torrential rains, flooding, 20 ft. tidal waves, earthquakes, landslides, hurricanes, and famine. www.climateark.org/shared/r...come.aspx

hurricane season hits nicaragua with two category 5 storms, felix and dean. in fact, felix was devastating nicaragua while we were attending the burn in 07 : news.nationalgeographic.com/news....html

most of what i'm reading in the above links indicate that nicaragua has an inadequate police force, and so the armed forces patrol the rural areas. in the human rights report it is stated that this whole system is corrupt, and that americans are easy targets for all sorts of violent crimes, many of which are carried out by the authorities.

drug trafficking around the islands is a common practice, so there is a risk of meeting with some very dangerous people. the whole nation is poor, 1 out of every 3 children are severely malnourished, 40% of the population is unemployed.

posted in Floatingman Island - 19 replies

Adam's TODOs in Nicaragua

2008-01-23T14:59:58Z

I'm heading down to Nicaragua next month.

The purpose of the trip is primarily to research things for this project.

I'd like to head down there with a clear set of TODOs, which I can just check off one by one.

a) Hospital in Granada?
b) Lawyer recommendations?
c) Checking out the backroad route to the island
d) ...

What questions would you guys like to have answered?

posted in Floatingman Island - 29 replies

Where's the energy?

2008-01-23T14:58:57Z

It's sad that there isn't more energy coming from the other side right now.

Because down here in Nicaragua, I'm just filling with more and more confidence. Everything down here looks great. Everyone loves the idea, and no one has come up with any reasons why it wouldn't work.

I met a Nicaraguan named Edwin yesterday. He lived in Cupertino for 24 years before moving back down here and setting up a telecom business.

Edwin is originally from Chontales, the region where the island is. He likes the idea for Floatingman, and he thinks the people of Chontales will like it. I asked him if the country people will have any problems with crazy looking artists freaks walking through town - he said "no", the people are just very friendly there. And this was my experience in Granada. I walked around town a bit with a hippy looking guy with a long braided beard. Everyone felt obligated to comment "the beard", "mr. beard", but they were all smiling.

He know the island that we're looking at, and has been there before. He said that $500,000 was a ripoff, and that an appropriate value would be closer to $300,000 for it. And he said that it's important that we find a real-estate agent on our side - more interested in helping us than getting a big commission. He also said that I should have no problem hiring a lawyer to check the property title for $100 (he's paid as little as $25 for the same service). I don't think that we'll be able to bring the price down to quite $300,000, but this furthers my confidence that we should be able to get the price lowered substantially.

I asked him about the name "Island of the Dead", and he told me that "El Muerto" is actually a common nickname in Nicaragua. The owner of one of the two major newspapers is nicknamed "El Muerto". His guess, is that someone with that nickname once owned the island. That's two theories about the name so far. The first theory was that viewed from the side, the island looks like a body lying prone with a shroud over it.

Oh, and he gave me advise that we need to go and visit his hometown of La Libertad. It's and easy day trip from the island, and it's supposedly super green and beautiful. Edwin's father refuses to leave because he describes it as "paradise".

That's all for today.

posted in Floatingman Island - 2 replies

I have posted more photos of the Island

2008-01-21T16:11:08Z

Well, Adam's trip down to Nica has jogged my memory banks and stirred up a lot of memories from my trip there last year...and, I have posted a number of pictures on the Floatingman tribe.

I posted some from the Island itself:

After reading a posting related to the type of soil we should expect there (and how it'll get mucky in the rain) I wanted to show in a little more detail the lanscape of almost the entire island. Rocks, rocks, and more rocks. The soil is black and full of a mulchy, stocky kind of bush. When I was there it was freshly hacked down.

I also noticed that I took a few pictures to show why I descriped the island as an "upside down bowl" . Those banks are steep.

Then theres all that bird shit I still havent figured out. Not sure if the island is on a migration route or something. There is a handfull of chickens - mostly hanging around the original house area - but it would take them years of wondering and random shitting to do the damage that is there.

I posted some from "the barrios" just outside of Granada:

The travel section in my newspaper had a big article on Granada recently. Move over Coasta Rice, step back Guatemaula, said the article ... Granada, Nicaragua is poised to be the next backpackers paradise. And true enough there is a huge ex-pat community in Granada and because Coasta Rica has become an expensive place to live/buy property, neighbouring countries (Panama, Guatemaula, and Nica) are all opening their doors with investment/development incentives. Just (and I mean JUST) outside of booming (and very hot and crowded) Granada are the barrios - which means neihborhoods - but is also kinda slang ... meaning, the hoods, very poor neighbourhoods ... "where the streets have no names" as Bono would say. This is "the real" Nicaragua in many ways. It's a very poor country, but rich with culture, humilty, and humanity in the people. People are warm, open and giving. But I'm sure in 5-10 years the streets with no names will be full of time-share condos and maybe even a lake-side golf course. And the people will just either move farther into nowhere, or be "lucky" to have a service job at one of the hotels.

I guess I'm saying I would really not like to see Floatingman be just another land owner in a country with cheap real estate and a great and interesting place for the the booming Granada backpacking party crowd to go for a wild weekend of dabachary on full moons ... with ticket sales going to help the people of Nicaragua of course. Not sure exactly WHAT I'm getting at except that I think the project should be concious that we are coming into "a people's" backyard and resist benefiting from the exploitative nature of the developments which will be all around us. I know thats the plan from the get-go back maybe bears repeating.

I posted a couple of pictures taken of / or from hostels on Ometepe Island. Adam, I do hope you are planning to visit Ometepe while you are down there. To me this was a magical place. There are people living and working the land on Ometepe that have NEVER been to the mainland of their own country. Why ever leave paradise they say. Ometepe is the island with two volcanoes on it and where I saw a 150acre (or so) farm for sale but I was on my way home and did not have a chance to got see it. I know that discussion is old news ... but it might resurface after you visit. And that other art community you're talking about is not far off Ometempe.

When are you scheduled to go see Floatingman Island by the way??

I'm going to spend the next little while going thru the major postings and hope to re-integrate myself into this conversation. I've been recovering from Trae's camp bar for the past 5 months...

:D

posted in Floatingman Island - 2 replies

A shout out and an invitation to Adam and Floating Man

2008-01-21T15:40:26Z

Hi. I've heard so much recently about this terrible "Adam", that I had to find out more about him, so I asked somebody I sort of know and kind of like (a new contact) to tell me more. I followed the links and - I must confess, I only skimmed a large amount of material. I start wading through the drama, and after a while my eyes go out of focus and I just have to stop - but this Adam person didn't seem like such a bad guy at all, just somebody who was getting mass flamed. He seemed like somebody I'd probably disagree with about 80% of the time, but that's OK, because it would be a civil disagreement, I think.

Adam, I run a ring called "BMORG doesn't speak for us : A ring for dissent in the Burner subculture". If you're at all interested, I'd like to invite you to join either or both versions of the ring, one of them on Ringlink

http://www.webring.cc/cgi-bin/ringlink/list.pl?ringid=bmorg

and the other on Ringsurf

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?action=info&ring=bmorg

The ring is what it sounds like. I've left it largely mothballed since 2001, back when I looked for voices of dissent in the Burning Man community and didn't find any other than my own and those of a handful of online aquaintences, so the rings are currently closed, but I would be glad to open them for you. Mainly, what I would ask is that

1. That those visiting your site be able to easily find their way back to the ring.
2. That you remember that some sites on the ring are hosted on free webhosting services, and refrain from putting any adult material on the ring page, because that could cause TOS issues for other members.
3. Don't get me busted or TOSed off the service. Not that I think you would, but I'm just saying ...

Why might you want to? One reason might be because in searches under "bmorg", my little rings have been seeing a lot of search engine love for the better part of a decade, and that kind of love spreads. Your visibility might go up a notch, getting you more of an audience with less headbutting. You probably have no idea of who I am, 2001 being as far back as it is at this point, but I have an established history of never rolling over on a member of anything I run in response to political pressure, feeling that real friendships are the ones that come without the political power playing; if somebody ditches me because I won't agree to ditch somebody else, que serait, serait.

Please understand that I'm not volunteering to take part in any infighting, if that's what's going on. I don't know the full story and have neither the time nor the curiosity to dig deeper. I'm on friendly terms with some of your enemies and would like to remain so, if possible, as some of them seem to basically be nice people, but the friend of your enemy should not have to be your enemy, I think. Would you agree?

posted in Floatingman Island - 7 replies

Cultural Similarities / A Nicaraguan New Year

2008-01-18T21:29:13Z

I said some of this before, but it's important enough that it bears repeating.

One of our big concerns before I came down here, is how a group of freaks who liked to make art and blow things up would be able to integrate into the Nicaraguan community.

We were afraid that there would be immense cultural gaps to overcome. But far better than I possibly could have imagined, it seems that we have a lot in common.

Amazingly, there is already one art commune on an island in the same lake where we want to buy an island. And the art commune which is already there is an art commune made up of Nicaraguans.

Here's a link to a website about that archipelago:

http://www.solentiname.com/

And the description below of the Nicaraguan New Year reminds me a lot of old Burningman. They _love_ fireworks here. Oddly, I've heard that they are given out by the Church. Apparently local custom says that loud noises can bring God's attention to the fact that you are happy. So, I can't see the Nicaraguans being shocked or surprised if we burn something, or blow it up with fireworks.

So, just good news from down here in Nicaragua.

Cheers,
-Adam

- - - - -

Quoted from "San Juan Del Sur"

Driving into San Juan from La Virgen on the morning of December 31 was more exciting than ever. The usual game of strategically dodging the potholes was enlivened by a multitude of “Año Viejos” (old years) along the roadside. Life-size dolls stuffed with straw, paper, fireworks and other highly incendiary materials were sitting on porches, standing under trees, perched on chairs on the shoulder of the highway, or linked arm in arm with a compatriot.

PHOTO: DanCesar.com

Some were dressed quite fine, others in old clothes. Some had elaborate expressions, others a simple face. Some grasped empty beer cans or liquor bottles in their hands. Each one a unique creation reflecting it’s maker. The one thing they had in common was that they were filled with all the negativity from the past year. After their day in the sun they were destined to burn at midnight to do away with the old year’s trials and tribulations and to clear the way for a positive new year. This Nicaraguan tradition is celebrated with greater gusto in San Juan del Sur than anywhere else in the country. In San Juan proper the sidewalks abounded with the funny scarecrow-like dolls.

As the evening progressed, at least one Año Viejo got the royal treatment: paraded through town on a throne in the back of a pick-up truck followed by a very lively15-piece band. Lights, smoke, and noise filled the air as more and more people came into the streets, children squealing with sizzling sparklers in hand, adults laughing and scrambling away from a hot lit fuse. Music boomed from every corner loudly celebrating the approaching end of another year. Families and friends gathered on patios and verandas to eat and drink together, watching the festivities.

At around midnight, “mas o menos” (more or less) the grand finale began with enormous fireworks shooting up from many different spots along the beach and the hillsides. The competing lightshows illuminated the sky with a brilliant magical glittering display. And down below the Año Viejos were dragged out into the open and set on fire.

The drive through town was wonderfully surreal and awing as street after street was blocked with these strange burning bodies, legs and arms spread wide, hissing and popping as fireworks ignited inside. The scene was repeated along the roads in smaller communities surrounding San Juan as well. People celebrated well into the morning. And now that the Old Year is nothing but ashes scattered in the wind, the way for an abundant and blessed New Year is clear.

A powerful communal ceremony indeed.

http://www.san-juan-del-sur.com/archives/issue_21_01_15_08/21_0115_2.htm

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

A friendly bit of advice

2008-01-16T18:52:30Z

Some may notice that in this tribe, there seems to be a bit of criticism, and not much support. And that a majority of the people on this site are either silent, or somewhat hostile. And occasionally there are posts that are meant to inflame opinions and even turn people of the tribe against each other.

Well, I've been noticing that some of the members of this tribe, mostly Adam, but also Trae, seem to have quite a bit of criticism of other events (mostly burning man).

The term "you reap what you sew" comes to mind.

Burning Man is a different event, yes, and not related to Floating Man. But it also seems to be the tribe that Adam spends most of his time on. If burning man today, is truly as bad as you make it out to be, my advice would be to quit going. But it seems to me, Adam, that the amount of time you spend obsessing on it and posting on the bm tribe, that you actually don't dislike burning man and the bmorg and what it is today as much as you say you do.

So if you want people to continue to offer criticism, and not advice, continue this current path.

Or, you can start looking for positive things that BM, the BMORG, and even your arch nemesis Larry are doing well, and start offering support for them and the event they produce. Stop being so negative on other tribes, and perhaps people will stop coming here and bringing the negativity along with them.

posted in Floatingman Island - 6 replies

Subteams / Working Groups

2008-01-16T01:37:45Z

It's a New Year. It's time to get this project off to a new start, and really get things moving.

We have defined a number of subteams to work on individual pieces of the project. Here they are:

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Greeters

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Marketing+Team

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Finance+Team

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Survival+Guide+Team

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Real+Estate+Team

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Legal+Team

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/Process+Team

If you are interested in joining any of these subteams, post here, or mail the subteam leader.

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

Update on tribewanted

2008-01-13T05:04:52Z

This guys have tried to something simliar, but they've taken a very different approach.

They originally wanted to buy land, but scaled back to having a 3-year lease. It's also rather expensive, with everyone (presumably except the founders) paying $50/day to be on the island. They have 150 locals working for them now.

But still it's interesting news to see the progress they've made, and the challenges they've had.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3176465.ece

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Meeting Minutes from January Meeting

2008-01-12T22:45:52Z

A nice quick, one hour meeting with Adam, Trae, and Vinay in attendance. Like most of our meetings, it felt very productive.

= = = =

Agenda:

1) COMMERCIALIZATION, ETC.

a) Kay O's documentary

b) Trademark

c) Commercialism

2) GETTING THE BALL ROLLING IN 2008

a) advertising

b) accomplish _something_

c) greeters

d) todos - better tracking/management

e) todos / subteams - ask for help

f) more detailed info about nicaragua

3) NEXT MEETING

= = = =

1a) Kay O's documentary

Since Tia participated in the tribe discussions, we wanted to hear her thoughts before making any final decision. But we've tentatively agreed to let him document everything up until we set up the community on the island. At a later point when more people are involved in the project, we can revisit this decision.

We also made the decision that as a documentarian/journalist, he'd get no special privilege. He'd be required to pay the same ticket prices, or price for a share as everyone else. And he would be expected to live according to our values on the island. He would report as a part of the project - gonzo journalism.

1b) Trademark

There is no requirement to register a trademark, though that gives it additional strength. We can just declare that Floatingman and Floatinman Island are our common law trademarks, and they will be protected under law. Later, when we have more money, we can consider registering our name.

Trae will look into having a notary validate the date when we started using the name.

Adam will put a trademark notice on the website.

1c) Commercialization

We're all in agreement, that the Floatingman name and images from the island cannot be used for any commercial purposes.

2a) advertising

When Adam gets back to SF, he has a meeting with Steve Raspa to talk about Floatingman. Now that he knows we're a not-for-profit project, Steve has expressed interest in what we're doing. The BMORG may be willing to do some advertising for us. But if that happens, it won't be happening for months.

There is now a flier for Floatingman in the most popular guesthouse in all of Nicaragua. That'll help get the word out to the backpackers. Plus, Adam is talking to a ton of people down here spreading things through the word of mouth.

2b) Accomplish _something_

We still love the idea of a Nicaragua burn. But this isn't going to happen until we have enough people interested in heading down there.

Trae and Adam are both interested in a sailing trip down to Nicaragua. Adam has already been shopping for boats.

2c) Greeters

The tribe has not been giving the right impression to people who join. Or perhaps just not the right info. We had already talked about having greeters, but it was never implemented. Starting now, Adam and Trae will alternate in greeting new tribe members.

2d) todos - tracking

We just need to be a lot more professional in tracking our todos, and checking them off. We all agreed the wiki is the best way to do this, and that we need to start using it religiously.

http://floatingman.wetpaint.com/page/todos

2e) todos / subteams - ask for help

We need to better start publishing the todos and the subteams we decided upon. That will provide a better way for new people to see where they want to, or might be interested in, helping out.

2f) More detailed info about Nicaragua

Both Trae and Vinay wanted to see a blog and photos from Nicaragua. It's critical to give people more solid info and a better understanding of what Nicaragua is actually like.

Adam wasn't quite ready to volunteer to do a blog, but photos will be posted very shortly. And he'll try to post more info in the tribe about his experiences.

3) Next Meeting

The next meeting of the leadership committee will be Saturday, February 2, at Noon. Everyone is invited.

= = = = = = =

TODOS:

TODO (adam): Post meeting date / time of next meeting on website.

TODO (adam): Post photos from Nicaragua

TODO (adam): Write up homepage for wiki. This might be very similar or identical to the greeter message.

TODO (adam / trae): start sending out greeter messages

TODO (adam): Write up greeter message

TODO (adam/trae): Talk about sailing to Nicaragua

TODO (adam): Post photos of Nicaragua

TODO (adam): Mail Tim

TODO (legal team): Write up legal contract protecting the use of the name and images from the event.

TODO (trae): Look into notary costs for trademark

TODO (adam): Put trademark notice on website.

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Message from the BMORG

2008-01-11T21:13:19Z

I'm John Cornwell and I work for Burning Man LLC.

One of the event's attendees pointed me to your site, asking about the pictures on your home page. You may not be aware of our photo policy, which requires permission from us before using any Burning Man photo outside your friends and family. We do this for a number of reasons: protect the privacy of our attendees, protect the copyright of the artists whose work is shown there, and ensure that the photos are not used for advertising / marketing.

I looked through your Tribe site (which was very, very interesting, by the way!) and saw the thread on commodification. We view advertising and marketing with Burning Man elements as a form of commodification.

I'm writing to ask that you remove the photos on the home page taken at Burning Man. It's nothing personal, and we're not questioning your mission, your good intentions or your approach. It's simply that we don't permit the use of photos for marketing, including the marketing of an investment.

Can you make the changes by the end of day, next Monday? Is that enough time?

Kind regards,

John Cornwell

posted in Floatingman Island - 83 replies

Meeting Tomorrow (Jan 12)

2008-01-11T20:25:12Z

Just a reminder that there is a meeting tomorrow, January 12th, at Noon PST.

I hope that some of you can make it.

The current items on the agenda are:

1) Commodification in general, and specifically Kay O's documentary.

2) Getting things rolling again in 2008.

Send a friend request to 'geekeasy' prior to the meeting.

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Trademark

2008-01-10T22:46:18Z

"Common law vs. registered trademark - How do I apply for a registered trademark?
The benefits of having a registered trademark as compared to a common law trademark include:

* Constructive notice nationwide of the trademark owner's claim.
* More evidence of the ownership of the trademark.
* Jurisdiction of federal courts may be invoked. Registration can be used as a basis for obtaining registration in other countries.
* Registration may be filed with the Customs Service to prevent importation of trademark infringing foreign goods."

http://inventors.about.com/od/trademarks/a/register.htm

Well... it seems that we don't need to actually register our trademark ($325) as a common law trademark is valid.

But perhaps we should make it more clear by listing the fact that we claim the trademark on our website and putting (tm) in some places.

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Nicaragua's _other_ island art commune

2008-01-10T17:56:45Z

Fascinating.

The country where we've decided we want to set up Flotingman, already has an island art commune on the same lake.

http://www.solentiname.com/

http://www.solentiname.org/content/view/21/29/

Quoted from Lonely Planet Nicaragua:

===================

"Until the 1960's, the Islas Solentiname didn't even appear on Nicaraguan maps. Metal tools for hewing wood seemed impossibly expensive to these families of subsistence farmers and fishers; homes and churches were made of palm thatch. Then in 1966, a idealistic young poet priest named Ernest Cardenal arrived on the islands, built a church, and recorded the remarkable La Misa Campesina, or Peasants' Mass, when the islanders themselves stood up and spoke the word of god.

---

One day, a grateful islander named Eduardo Arana presented Cardenal with an elaborately decorated jicara shell, which impressed the priest into giving the young man paints and a canvas. Those first few paintings, some on display in the Biblioteca y Sala Archaeologica on Mancarron, launched Nicaragua's Primitivist Art Movement, internationally recognized for the vibrant colors and expert lines that so accurately capture this tropical paradise. One artists, Ufredo Arguello, began applying the same saturation of color to balsa-wood carvings, which also caught on.

Throughout the last 1960s and 1970s, families worked together painting and sculpting sending their work to market in Managua.

---

Largely because of Cardenal's socialist leanings, in 1977 a group of Sandista supporters attacked San Carlos , and failed. On October 3, as retribution, the National Guard burned every structure on the islands to the ground. Survivors fled to Costa Rica, leaving the archipelago all but abandoned.

When the revolutionary government took power, the islanders returned and rebuilt, raising a new church, and began painting and sculpting again. And Solentiname, for so long a commune in the purest sense, remains more staunchly committed to the most extreme ideals of the revolution than perhaps anywhere else in the country. 'It's just hard to get used to capitalism', explained one artist."

posted in Floatingman Island - 4 replies

It's a New Year!

2008-01-10T17:53:12Z

I was hoping to get this New Year off to a bang, and really get the momentum rolling. Instead the opposite seems to be happening.

One of Tia's big complaints was that our meetings are announced at the last minute. This last meeting, and the one before it, didn't happen at all. In my mind, this is unacceptable. We need to fix this.

What does everyone think about having the meetings on the First Saturday of every month at Noon PST? Can we agree to this schedule and stick to it?

If so, I'll publish a calendar of meetings on the website.

The meeting this past Saturday did not happen. So, for this month, can we have one next Saturday. Kay O, Tia, Trae, others, can you make this meeting? I'll also mail the rest of the 'official people' and invite them to the meeting.

What else can we do to get this project moving faster?

My guess for that seems to be advertising, advertising, advertising. It's possible that we'll get help from the BMORG with that after I get back in the country and talk with Steve Raspa. But that won't be until mid-February. I'll also put up some fliers here in Granada, Nicaragua. People who are in Nicaragua already might have interest. Other ideas for advertising?

Any other ideas for getting things moving?

P.S. I spoke to people today who talked about some NGOs (non-governmental organizations), which took 5 years from the initial idea to realization, so we're not moving all that slowly.

posted in Floatingman Island - 5 replies

Documenting it all

2008-01-10T17:52:11Z

I only stumbled onto this whole Floatingman thing a few days ago but it immediately took hold of my imagination, both in all the ways it could be wonderful and also all the ways it could go terribly wrong. That is what great endeavours and drama are all about. So...

As a filmmaker with a keen interest in art, intentional communities and alternative lifestyles Floatingman seems like the perfect subject for a long term documentary project.

I would like to come down to Nicaragua this spring for the burn & fact finding mission. I'd also like to sit in (with camera in hand) on as many meetings and preparations as possible. Of course it wouldn't be right to do this without talking to naysayers as well and why they think it won't work.

So, are you willing to work with me? Which really just means, are you willing to welcome me and my camera into the fray?

posted in Floatingman Island - 26 replies

Commerce

2008-01-03T18:01:54Z

For all its foibles wikipedia seems as good a place as any to start;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Decision Making Revisited

2008-01-02T00:38:29Z

Quite a while ago we worked out or decision making processes. The board is to make decisions by consensus. The owners have a vote on critical issues (selling property, changes to the operating agreement). The island council is to make decisions by consensus.

We knew that at some point we'd have to figure out the interim period, where we're growing as a community and org. It seems that time has come.

Here are some challenges to think about: I don't think that we can effectively have an org with 100 people with an equal say on every minute decision. And, I believe that if we give people a full say now, but then take it away later, this disinfranchisement will cause nothing but ugliness, bitterness, and hurt feelings. How do we fix this?

First of all, we plan on adding more member of the board. Up to perhaps 10 members. But we'd like to do this slowly. As a rough guide, someone should have 6 months of active involvement in the project before they are considered for board membership.

However, and this is perhaps the more important point, all of the participants right now will be granted an important, but non-official say, in all decisions.

Consensus calls for everyone to respond to any decision with "agree", "stand aside", or "block". If non-board members block a decision, we will respect that. As of yet, we've never gone around anyone's block. But, I do think that the ultimate power for Org related decisions does need to reside within the board. So, for critical issues, the board could override a non-board member's block.

As I mentioned above, power of the board is limited such that they cannot change the operating agreement or sell property (should the operating agreement be updated so that the board cannot buy property either w/out an okay?). These things need to be approved by a vote of the owners. Checks and balances are maintained through the owners have a right to revoke and replace the board.

Now, we only have 2 owners. But I will propose that the first 25 people who send in a minimum of $100 should be considered a tentative owner, and should be given the same vote as a full owner. This right to vote will extend until 30 days after shares are offered for purchase. If they buy a share, they are now an owner, and will retain their vote. If they don't purchase a share, then their right to vote will be revoked. (note - we will revisit this after we have the first 25 people.) (note 2 - trae and I can also lose our membership if we don't pay the full share price)

Summary:

Anyone participating in the project has a say. But the board does reserve the right to overrule blocks from non-board members. We hope never to have to use this.

Anyone who sends in $100 or more, has an official vote in the project for certain specific important issues, and anything else the board wants to send down for a vote.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

In part, this is my and Trae's shared thoughts. But he has not reviewed this write up, and there may still be some minor disagreements between us.

None of this has been officially, decided upon yet. We'd like to get your feedback before doing anything.

See this as a test of our updated decision making process. The board has the right to make this decision, but we will not do it should any of the regular tribe/meeting participants disagree (block) the decision.

So.... what do you think?

posted in Floatingman Island - 8 replies

Living Art - Arborsculpture

2008-01-01T23:13:00Z

This stuff is pretty cool.

http://arborsmith.com/ps_gallery/ps_gallery.html

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

To the floatingman Ladies

2008-01-01T12:35:10Z

Being a minority among such strong minded men, on a remote island, in a third world country with little goverment and hardly any laws. How will you be treated by the men on the island?

http://sweetguys.tribe.net/thread/17716069-59e5-47b8-9489-aa8ef3998c01

http://sweetguys.tribe.net/thread/be75b85b-c4ca-40e9-8760-e9d466e89384

http://sweetguys.tribe.net/thread/88360028-67b0-4531-852d-4b3ce2733b4d

http://jewtribe.tribe.net/thread/32fca175-b72b-46d9-ad15-b2456b932b07

http://extremehonesty.tribe.net/thread/09d41439-ef21-4fc9-ad04-92349a7a3df5

posted in Floatingman Island - 10 replies

You are being your own worst enemies...

2007-12-31T05:01:00Z

I'm an admitted fence sitter on this project. I love the idea and would probably buy my ticket and join, but certain things are keeping me on the fence.

One of the reasons that I am fence sitting is that the two major players (Adam and Trae) in the project are scaring me off it, primarily through their other posts on tribe, particularly WRT BMORG and P. Addis. This is not a personal attack on them. I am not calling them names, or judging their actions other than to report my reaction to their actions.

Obviously, you both are entitled to your opinions regarding any subject, but it is the way you have resolved these issues online is something that I (A potential investor/floater/burner) judge the outlook for the success of the project on. Frankly, it scares me. You assure us that concensus will be used to make decisions at Floatingman, but I have yet to see much concensus building in the charges/accusations made against the BMORG and it's volunteers, people who have opposing points of view regarding the actions of P. Addis, the way that regionals are run, even the way that BMORG asked you to remove copyrighted material.

What I am hoping to point out to you is that your message is not getting through to me...and possibly "the people"...we are scared by your messages.

I wonder why you are taking the approach that you are:

1) Perhaps you aren't aware that the posts on other tribes WRT Burning Man, P. Addis, BMORG, regionals, etc. reflect directly on people's opinions of the Floatingman project.

2) Perhaps you are not considering that those posts could be alienating large sectors of the potential population. (IE: the majority of burners aren't Addis fans/or don't dispise the BMORG)

3) Perhaps you don't really want to appeal to the average burner type person and want to only form this island venture with a small group of "like-minded" individuals.

You can immediately flame me, or ...

you can demonstrate emotional literacy, step outside of the impulse to flame me, and look for ways that you can be more approachable and interesting to the people who would be potentially be joining this project.

posted in Floatingman Island - 19 replies

official people?

2007-12-31T02:23:42Z

this is starting to bug me... everyone, other then adam and myself, that are 'official' are silent partners. i believe this is because adam has talked to them in the real world, and they arent necessarily on tribe. this is fine, great in fact! but i would really like people that are willing enough to pony up the cash to be involved here as well. i dont even have a way to contact these people.

adam, can you make it a task to get those people here? i dont like talking about what we are going to do with their money without them even having seen the discussion.

posted in Floatingman Island - 4 replies

January Meeting

2007-12-31T02:22:53Z

According to our old schedule, the next meeting should be Sunday, January 6th.

Can we do it on Saturday the 5th instead? I might be in Chontales by then, and I'm not sure if anything will be open on a Sunday.

Is that okay for people? How about Noon PST?

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

Don't Delete

2007-12-26T23:55:43Z

Seriously do not delete "Moist Putz" threads. Proves the point of how pathetic and petty him and his ilk are.

posted in Floatingman Island - 19 replies

5 principles instead of 10?

2007-12-25T22:39:25Z

Chicken John:
> I looked into that Floating Man thing. Sounds ambitious. Why anyone would want to use Larry's 10 principles for anything except toilet paper is beyond me...

The values are something which are very important to me.

I've been thinking through this for a while. Chicken John just got me kicked off on the topic again.

We picked the principles of Burningman by default, because those were the values that were easily available to us. Plus, probably such that we could qualify as an official regional. Those are bad reasons.

Plus, I think that they principles are somewhat tarnished. I'm not sure that they're now really the _values_ that burners hold; if they ever were. They're simply mechanisms which people follow.

Does "Decommodification" really mean anything to any of us? Or do we just follow the mechanism by not selling things at Burningman?

If we look at definitions: "a commodity is anything for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a given market." Is that really relevant to us?

What of "Civic Responsibility"? Is that a value we hold?

Plus, I just think that there are too many. Can anyone recall all 10 of the principles without looking them up?

I think that we need real values. Not things that we just kind of do, but things that have real meaning to us.

What are our values?

Here are thing which are personally important to me for this project.

"Freedom, Self-reliance, Self-expression, Gifting, Respect"

= = = = =

* Freedom

Everyone should be free to act as they wish, so long as their actions don't infringe on the freedom of others.

* Self-Reliance:

Everyone is expected to discover, exercise, and rely on their own inner resources.

* Self-Expression:

At the heart, we're an art project. But "art" is a very broad term. No one should exist as just a spectator. Everyone should work to express themselves creatively.

* Gifting:

Gifting is the act of giving something, while expecting nothing in return. A gift can be a smile, kind words, a lesson on how to do something, or a trinket as a souvenir.

There will be no commerce on the island. All transactions will be done by gifts or cooperative effort.

* Respect:

Respect one another. Respect the people of the country which is hosting us. Respect the planet.

= = = = =

What do people think about reevaluating our values?

And what do people think of the values that I've proposed?

posted in Floatingman Island - 14 replies

Differences of opinion

2007-12-23T14:55:47Z

Quick question. Will guns be allowed on the island? What about other weapons? Where do we draw the line (clearly, we should ban nukes, but that would be a rule...)

posted in Floatingman Island - 7 replies

Adam wants to delete threads that are critical of him or Floating Man

2007-12-21T21:43:19Z

Gosh, I wish we had that luxury over in the Burning Man tribe.

posted in Floatingman Island - 6 replies

Are you surprised when a bad person does bad things to you?

2007-12-20T23:14:37Z

Are you surprised when a bad person does bad things to you? Do you get all "What?! you mean this guy that I hung around with and watched destroy other people is destroying me now?! WHAT?! How could I have possibly set myself up to be this guys victim!?"

Well guess what folks: Adam.

Go look at what he's doing to the Burning Man tribe. PAY ATTENTION. LOOK at who you are letting lead you. You think he won't turn on you someday like he's turned on Burning Man? YOU REALLY THINK HE WON'T?

God damn if you think that you deserve to get what ever sucker punch he delivers.

posted in Floatingman Island - 7 replies

Tribe a beautiful Phoenix

2007-12-20T16:25:36Z

I love Tribe. I'm so glad Marc is in charge of it again and that Jan was given a pair of concrete boots and dropped in the bay.

I understand that because they are a small company that they are going to have to go down during the day on occasion. Sure, it sucks, because I love me some tribe... but it's not a reason to leave.

posted in Floatingman Island - 4 replies

The leadership council...

2007-12-20T05:41:23Z

The leadership council apparently consists of Adam and Trae: http://tribes.tribe.net/floatingman_owners

Wow, that seems like an exclusive club. Have any of you seen the papers to file for corporate, or non profit status? I mean, you are thinking about sinking money into this thing right? You'll get your fair share... right? I mean, you know you well... right? Cause the Leaders are such honest people, and you know that somehow...... right?

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

Some thoughts from Chicken John

2007-12-19T06:24:49Z

I don't really agree with everything that he said.

But I think that it's interesting - most of what Chicken John says is interesting.

So, I wanted to copy the discussion in here for everyone else to read.

===========================

Chicken:
> I looked into that Floating Man thing. Sounds ambitious. Why anyone would want to use Larry's 10 principals for anything except toilet paper is beyond me...

It is indeed ambitious.

I'm heading down to Nicaragua next week to check out the property title, and other things related to the project (plus some volcano surfing).

As for the principles, it's no longer just my project. I don't run it. A group runs it. I think having some shared values is important in a project like this. But personally, I would like to revisit the values someday, and come up with our own list. If for no other reason than Larry's list is too long. If you cannot remember all of the values, you're not going to live by them. Who can (without cheating) name all 10 principles off the top of their head?

- - - - - -

The 10 principals of what Larry thinks BM is about and what BM IS really about are at least 20 different things.

But it sure is funny to read that gobbly goop that we get blessed with from time to time.

Truth is, your probably losing more people by attaching to that crap... do your own thing. Having anything to do with BM at all is just gonna weigh you down or drown ya. You have probably heard this, but you'd probably do better to gather the masses to kick down a few grand if you had 3 years under your belt as an arts organization. If you could do that, you'd be better than me. I could never keep anything together for more than 3 months before I either lost the interest needed or the idea faded or someone took it or lost the space or whatever. Maybe that's why your not doing that.

Having shared values doesn't have to be important. It can be, but mutual respect is far more paramount than everyone pretending to agree. Remember that Larry vacilates on the interpretation of the principals as the years go by. He now speaks very little because every time he opens his mouth he contridicts himself. That's just kinda what happens when you talk a lot. Hey, he wanted to be the king... that's what happens. i told him to get into the habit of apologizing, but to date he's never once admitted that he was wrong about anything. it's like he thinks people actually read the stuff he writes and beleive it. Oh yea. They do.

But it's funny, right? At least it's funny...

As for Nicaragua it's the hardest place I've ever been to. Fucking hard. it was one of those places that as I was leaving I knew I'd never be back... you're gonna need to understand their food before you can understand their culture. I couldn't understand what the fuck they were eating, let alone what they were saying. I like the monkeys, though... but they can be pretty rough as well.

My lady owns a coffee roastery in SF. buys the beans directly from the farmers in Costa Rica. The pickers come from Nicarauga. We know a few of 'em. this is a whole different thing down there. I can confidently say that I have no idea what the fuck is going on down there. I know 5 people who have owned real estate in Costa Rica. I know one that owns now. the Green Tortise people owned some property down there for a bit... but let it go. Literally. Tread lightly, my friend. And remember, if you didn't bring it with you... it's not going home with you..

- - - - - -

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Adding a Floatingman goal - actually a non-goal.

2007-12-18T06:35:20Z

We've had a list of "goals" for a long time. I think that it's a great as a set of guiding principles for us. And we should avoid changing it.

But there is one thing which is integral enough to the project, and has been from the start, that I think it needs to be added to our "goals".

8) Floatingman will be a not-for-profit project. None of the owners or directors should expect to make any profit off of this project at all.

We could perhaps list this somewhere else, but I really like the idea of using the goals as a single checkoff list to see if people "get it".

I'm in the middle of rewriting the website to make other changes that we've agreed to. What do you guys think about adding this as a goal?

posted in Floatingman Island - 11 replies

is "should" good enough?

2007-12-18T03:44:33Z

From the goals of Floatingman http://www.floatingman.org/index.php?page=Home

>Floatingman will be a not-for-profit project. None of the owners or directors should expect to make any profit off of this project. <

Is Floatingman a not-for-profit project or not? If it truely is one would expect to see the statement, "will not make a profit" rather than "should". And, it would be written into the by-laws.

posted in Floatingman Island - 35 replies

TSCA grant

2007-12-08T04:37:24Z

Here's an interesting grant for anyone who wants to biuld traditional wooden small craft (Trae?).

http://tsca.net/gardner.html

It seems that they have money available and a lack of applicants. Though, I'm not sure exactly when their next grant giving cycle will be.

posted in Floatingman Island - 1 reply

Website updates

2007-12-08T04:10:45Z

I've made a bunches of updates to the website. Mostly changes that we've discussed in the meetings or on the tribe.

Please review it here:

http://www.floatingman.org/new

I'll incorporate any feedback, and I'll post the updated website in a week.

posted in Floatingman Island - 3 replies

december meeting?

2007-12-08T04:09:52Z

i asked when this should be immediately after the november meeting, and didnt get much response. it probably should have got its own thread then anyways.

last year around this time involvement in this tribe just about died. it went back up in january. im going to take a wild guess and say that is the result of the holidays; people are busy. so i am actually going to propose we not have a meeting this month, i dont think it would be very effective. how about we have one in the new year, the first saturday, the 5th? sunday works too, whatever.

adam, do you have anything that couldnt wait? im thinking the only thing i really want done for this month is to get a newsletter out, or send messages to the people in the tribe. getting the silent partners involved is important to me as well, but it has its own thread already.

if people still want to get together, im all for it, but traditionally it would have been yesterday (heh), so when?

posted in Floatingman Island - 3 replies

9 out of 10 floaters agree...

2007-12-03T20:39:39Z

Double dicking Moist Puppies is the way to spiritual freedom.

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

financial reports

2007-12-03T15:45:09Z

i will make updates as they are needed to keep this current.

9/23
income:
adam, $200
trae. $150
misha, $100

expenses:
llc formation fees, $348

posted in Floatingman Island - 13 replies

Meeting with John B.

2007-11-29T01:23:34Z

John heard about the project through a San Francisco burner/artist named Ray. I don't know how Ray heard of the project, but word does seem to be spreading. He has a lot of experience in Nicaragua, so I wanted to meet with him and discuss various legal and political issues. We met at an Oakland bar yesterday.

These are my notes from that conversation.

* Political situation

Ortega's opposition in the election actually died a couple of months before the election. Without that, he almost certainly would not have been elected. He's not particularly popular, and probably won't be elected.

John does have some concerns though. Ortega made a lot of promises to the people who helped get him elected. He has to to pay off those favors, and John doesn't know how he'll try to do it.

Here's something important for us though. The power in Nicaragua is also completely decentralized. "Nicaragua politics" refers almost completely to Managua. Outside of the capital, the state governments run everything. So, we will mostly have to deal with the government of Chontales. And, no surprise, the more tourists we bring in and the more taxes we pay, the more they are going to like having us around.

* Safety situation

The drugs lords are all down in Columbia, not in Nicaragua. There still may be lots of drug running problems in the NE of the country, but not around Granada or Chontales. There are parts of Managua that you definitely don't want to walk around at night, but that's equally true of SF, LA, or Oakland.

* Legal situation of American's owning land.

Americans can own land outright. The biggest hurdle is that during the late seventies, most of the country was cooperativized. Blocks are land were sold to cooperatives, where every member signed the land deed. Now, if you want to buy that property, every single person (perhaps 15 or 20 of them) will have to sign it. If you miss any, you could have trouble. And since there are a couple of very common surnames, it can be almost impossible to be sure you've found the right people.

He referred to title searches as a "scam". There is no reason why we cannot just go the Chontales department and do this ourselves. Though, it wouldn't hurt to hire a local translator for a small amount of money to help us.

Instead of a title search he highly recommended that we get "title insurance" where the insurance company will help validate the title, and then insure the property if there are any problems. He recommended First American Title out of Florida for this (and I have the name of a contact person). Title insurance should be approx. $500 for each $100,000 of the property price. Though, we need to be careful about the insurance - it can be so full of exclusions as to be worthless.

We talked about building permits. It's a _very_ good thing that there is already construction on the island - both the old house and the new one. For any new construction, yurts and such might be best such that we can claim that they are temporary. But our isolation means that people won't often come out and check us out. If push comes to shove, there may eventually be some fines or bribes. As a rough estimate they would be in the range of thousands of dollars. (not much divided among 100 owners)

I'm flying down to Nicaragua Xmas day. John will be flying down there a week earlier. We talked about heading over to Chontales together (the remote countyside adjacent to the island) and exploring it a bit. We might also be able to check into the title while we're there.

Oh... and John has sent in a check for $100.

That's it for now.

posted in Floatingman Island - 0 replies

Looking good

2007-11-27T19:55:15Z

So, quick summary post.

* Yes, I think that it's important that you have a **designated** medial person on the ground at all times, even if that role sometimes devolves to people with less skill. The point is that you have somebody who is *responsible* and, if they feel out of their depth, they need to get more training or find somebody else for the job. Responsibility, and clear lines of accountability, are *key* to reducing risk and the perception of risk.

* I suggest $10k a person simply because if people estimate $3k at this stage of a project, $10k is probably not far off real costs. Cynical, but that's 35 for you.

* I think that it's not unnatural for a couple of people to be doing most of the heavy lifting at this point. We'll get more involved as it looks more solid. That's how people are :)

* I think you guys need to start thinking much more clearly about risk and risk management.

$3,000 *with what degree of confidence?*

Contingency numbers - what's the half a dozen things that could go wrong, how much will it cost to fix them, and who'll pay cash to do it? What's the backup fund? What happens if, you know, the septic system dies.

These things are not big issues, but the way that they are handled tells people whether you've thought this through enough to raise a third of a million dollars to invest in a real estate deal.

And that's really the core I'm going to keep coming back to. It's a real estate deal, with additional elements of putting on a regional burn in another country, which is not so different from hosting a safari. That's a lot for a couple of people to get right, and it's actually quite an ambitious project.

The more you focus on making the unknowns less unknown, reducing uncertainty, and reducing but especially **quantifying** risk, the easier it will be to attract the next two dozen active (and invested) members who can bring it to fruition.

Different people can help with different bits. You've got a decent bead on wind, I know a bit about water purification (what you need depends entirely on how much water you are going to want per day) and, in general, you don't have far to go until I think you could start getting a decent sized volunteer group organized to cut the problem up into manageable piece and grind out the options until you have a solid budget with contingencies and alternatives established.

Sounds like a hell of a lot of work, but that's why nobody's done this already. Real estate is hell, that's why it's so profitable, both financially, but also in terms of autonomy and freedom.

posted in Floatingman Island - 35 replies