I don't think I've ever brought up my experience with the OTA (Ordo Templi Astarte). The OTA is a hermetic, magickal organization begun by Carroll "Poke" Runyon, a magickian of no small skill. The emphasis of the OTA is on evocation of goetic entities, or "demons". The OTA holds that such entities are psycholigical, BUT that the scope of the human mind is, essentially, all encompassing... of course, this holds true with both Bardonian style magick and Hermetics in general (if you are new to hermetics, you would be well served to read "The Kybalion" by the Three Initiates. It can be found for under $20.00, and free on the internet).
As many of you know, this is a reference to "The Universe is Mental"-- a law of hermetics/magick.
Bardon never says that spirits are mental. Crowley, DuQuette and Runyon do. What is your perspective?
Take Care,
Papa
As many of you know, this is a reference to "The Universe is Mental"-- a law of hermetics/magick.
Bardon never says that spirits are mental. Crowley, DuQuette and Runyon do. What is your perspective?
Take Care,
Papa
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Nevada
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Re: Spirits
07/05This is a very interesting question and one that has been discussed at my house more then once. While doing Enochian work and also, during some initiations the question of whether the entities we were interacting with were psychological or outside beings came up. I really haven't decided what my honest feeling is on this either. I think that the human mind wants to believe that these beings are something outside of ourselves, beings with an existence that is not dependent upon our own, but they often do reflect our own psychological 'issues' back at us. My personal feeling is that these 'beings' are something in between these two ideas, but I am not exactly sure how to explain this. I would love to hear some other insights into this.
Dian -
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Re: Spirits
07/05I have a very similar perception of these entities. I have come to perceive them as different types of beings. The first "class" is completely independent of our existence. These beings may come into existence, for a short duration or may have been existent since the inauguration of materia itself. This of course presupposes that you posit "actuality" to space-time.
The next "class" of beings is a projection of another being. Their existence is implicate within the formex of an explicate entity. This can describe any construct that we animate through the action of our Art; as well as ourselves as thoughtforms within the mind of the All in All. In the later we are the implicate; regardless of the ultimate scope of our awareness and being.
Within the context of the first Hermetic Principle; each is equally valid. Also it is impossible to elicit a reductionist qualification of existence, since all would be subsidiary to the All in All. Trully we have no means to even demonstrate our existence independent of the projection of ourselves as thoughtforms from the All.
When you state, " they often do reflect our own psychological 'issues' back at us". I concur in some respects, however I also have some sense that what you describe in not a reflection so much as is a "resonance" by which we are brought close enough to each other, that we can become aware of each other in response to the similarities. This resonance offers the potential for confusion as per causation via the fallacy of false cause.
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Re: Spirits
07/09I intentionally did not want to state my own feelings on this issue to begin with as I did not wish to color the conversation too early, but since we've begun a discussion; here goes...
I don't see a contradiction in saying that both things are simultaneously true. I realize that this is the easy way out, but it does not make it untrue. I am firmly in the camp that spirits can be formed from our own mental stuff with our "issues" forming what Bardon refers to as "larvae" (which can become full blown demons within our own psyches)--the literature of magick is rife with tales of spirits gaining independance from their masters; I honestly see this as being an indication that spirits form within the mind of the magician can (and sometimes do) overpower the caster. This, perhaps, could indicate a very powerful neurosis (addiction, compulsion, phobia etc.) or psychosis.
I also accept that other entities may be possessed of existances independant from our own. My experience in this area is somewhat limited as I do not yet claim to be possessed of the discernment necessary to determine which entities are derived from my psyche and which are independant from it.
Rawn Clark (abardoncompanion.com) suggests that the spirits which are contacted via evocation are, indeed, quite real and decidedly indepdant from the magician. He also explains that a magician must develop a great deal of discernment before s/he will be able to consistantly separate the legitimate spirits from hir own issues. Mr. Clark further explains that his perspective is that the magician must be have attained an efficient and stable elemental balance.
All the Best,
Papa
