I just got back from Canada and visitng with my friends from The Apostolic Johannite Church and their sponsored magical group, The Friary (a group of Gnostic Christian magical practitioners). The discussion was great. It included some questions about why the church and The Friary is run the way it is run. The discussion was very open even though it challenged the established teachings, the conversation was conducted with humor and a very respectable degree of open dialogue.
So, let's stirup some shit (... in a respectful way...).
Point one: we all here either respect Bardon, respect magick or want something more in our lives ( and I hope THAT is the real point of our little community).
Point two: this is a forum dedicated to the serious examination of the work of Franz Bardon. (regardless of whether or not the ENTIRE conversation is about Grand Daddy B.)
Point three: we often compare Bardon's work to the work of others. (a helpful practice, I believe, especially for those from other traditions).
Point four: some of us consider ourselves practitioners of other systems, or of no system in particular. (I, for one, am a free-style & intuitive practitioner)
Point... Well. THE point of this post: some people complain about Bardon. What are your frustrations, concerns, problems or hang-ups? Let's do what no other Bardon list would be likely to do... talk openly about what bothers us.
For me, here they are...
1. Little ritual structure: ya see, I'm not a ritual guy, so I need loads of guidance. If you talk about rituals and then give me little or no guidance, I'm lost. I think "Why use a ritual? Why not just freak out in the middle of the mall and use all the KEWL emotional energy from that to do what you want?"...
2. Incomplete references: Bardon references the East or instructs in practices that were not present in Europe much before his time that originated in Asia. I feel that some of the references should have been further discussed... Hardcore Bardonian magicians often say his system is complete. Really? Where is the complete discussion on karma? Akasha? He references these things but gives on the most summative explanations... An eastern teacher might make the point that it would take years to understand these concepts. Bardon references the Tarot... clearly there is no real instruction given, however.
3. Expectation: Anyone. Can. Do. It. ... ... Really? Can anyone?
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Yes. I believe they can but Bardon occasionally paints a very optimistic picture of the objective effects that can be achieved. Objective results are difficult; especially ones that can't be explained away.
Disclaimer:
Before our group linches me know these things:
1. I do believe that Bardon's system is THE most complete, balanced, sane and "for real" out there.
2. I understand that Bardon might say that we will undestand these issues (karma, akasha, rituals, etc.) as we grow.
3. Anything else that might make you defensive is probably your issue, so let me keep sleeping... .... I'm exhausted from the flight.
So, let's stirup some shit (... in a respectful way...).
Point one: we all here either respect Bardon, respect magick or want something more in our lives ( and I hope THAT is the real point of our little community).
Point two: this is a forum dedicated to the serious examination of the work of Franz Bardon. (regardless of whether or not the ENTIRE conversation is about Grand Daddy B.)
Point three: we often compare Bardon's work to the work of others. (a helpful practice, I believe, especially for those from other traditions).
Point four: some of us consider ourselves practitioners of other systems, or of no system in particular. (I, for one, am a free-style & intuitive practitioner)
Point... Well. THE point of this post: some people complain about Bardon. What are your frustrations, concerns, problems or hang-ups? Let's do what no other Bardon list would be likely to do... talk openly about what bothers us.
For me, here they are...
1. Little ritual structure: ya see, I'm not a ritual guy, so I need loads of guidance. If you talk about rituals and then give me little or no guidance, I'm lost. I think "Why use a ritual? Why not just freak out in the middle of the mall and use all the KEWL emotional energy from that to do what you want?"...
2. Incomplete references: Bardon references the East or instructs in practices that were not present in Europe much before his time that originated in Asia. I feel that some of the references should have been further discussed... Hardcore Bardonian magicians often say his system is complete. Really? Where is the complete discussion on karma? Akasha? He references these things but gives on the most summative explanations... An eastern teacher might make the point that it would take years to understand these concepts. Bardon references the Tarot... clearly there is no real instruction given, however.
3. Expectation: Anyone. Can. Do. It. ... ... Really? Can anyone?
...
...
...
...
Yes. I believe they can but Bardon occasionally paints a very optimistic picture of the objective effects that can be achieved. Objective results are difficult; especially ones that can't be explained away.
Disclaimer:
Before our group linches me know these things:
1. I do believe that Bardon's system is THE most complete, balanced, sane and "for real" out there.
2. I understand that Bardon might say that we will undestand these issues (karma, akasha, rituals, etc.) as we grow.
3. Anything else that might make you defensive is probably your issue, so let me keep sleeping... .... I'm exhausted from the flight.
posted by:
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Nevada
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Ok, phew... lots of neatly laid out things there.
1. The ritualistic aspects.
Actually there is only 'really' the inbreathing, or 'accumulating' of this or that, yourself or another outside object... and the outbreathing back out, or dispersing of this or that, etc. This is actually the basis and the basics of all of the first book, Initiation Into Hermetics. This is of course, elemental magic.
Bathing yourself with cold water... ok, a good ritual if you get into it, it has it's usefullness. But it again is just accumulating or getting rid of, moving energy by your thought ideation/will/intention. This then becomes eucharist. You then can wrap your mind around other teachings; for instance the "Kybalion." Or many/any of Crowley's writings. What I am saying is that the basic concepts of the rituals lay out stepping stones to begin to learn to walk, which then become language symbols to other systems.
Others who have been in other systems and then make use of Bardon's methodology can tell by their experiences that Bardon's is a more complete system.
For me, personally, I took the essence of "The Practice of Magical Evocation" and applied it in my own creative way for a personal ritual of evocation communicating with a being and myself. And my results were in the realm that I supplied and applied. I did take very many points to heart from Bardon's suggestions. I waited until I could confront another being/entity, or rather put it this way; until I could present myself in the most genuine and non confrontational, no condeming and all accepting manner. And that I could conceive of myself as the supreme being myself in some form or fashion, acceptable to me, therefore believable to the entity. These are all of the points that I needed to perform a successful evocation, as well.. as from the first book "Initiation Into Hermetics"... to create an elementary being. (By the way, dispersing a very useful elementary being is very 'personally sad', not difficult to do, as the mind understands the concept of not being over indulgent and overrelying and just performs the dispersion and death and non creation of the elementary, but emotionally it is difficult to do without suddenly... by your own will. It's a case of your own will performing an action against it by a different faction of your self/being. Interesting...
As to the karma, eastern methodology aspects... I personally entered the hermetic or mysticism field of interest giving myself a good thorough background in both Eastern as well as Western concurrently. I read the Buiddhist Bible in one hand and the Christian Bible in the other. For years... meditated on the chackras and pranayama... and the Sephir Yetzirah... for years, understanding and just letting their concepts and language settle around me, to become familiar with them. Because I understood intuitively that.... if this or that system is working on uncovering the deeper secret truths of the inner human being, and they are all using the same human being entity group to bring these results from... then there must be some base level similarities converging here and there. It has to be. It is the same being. So I studied them both back in 1980-84 pretty thoroughly, full immersion therapy on it all.
But in actuality, it doesn't really matter (just for intellectualism sake perhaps) whether you understand karma theoretically or not, thoroughly, Bardon gives cursory enough hints to steer one to the truth seed of the matter, that what goes up ... comes down. What one does ... comes back on one self, later. It's just a law. Respect it or not. grins. But more importantly, ... I feel, that once you're honestly deeply, no turning back ... 'on the path' you will find out about karma introspectively, inside of yourself, within the Inner Workshop in which we're all dealing with these issues on this plane. Even if you are taken by the path of signs, and taught that... you will find and meet the sign for karma and come to understand it... somehow, whichever method is teaching you. Depends on what the contract was which you and your HGA (Holy Guardian Angel) signed together before entering this physical/astral shell for this lifetime. :)
Akasha...? Just means something that is, that 'penetrates all.' YOU yourself have to wrap your understanding around how you can have a meaningful relationship with feeling and being and expressing a personal communication with that thing called "Akasha." However you meet it, from the path from the north, in the winter, or from the path of the east in the spring, whether at noon time or in the early morning... it is still the same place, the Akasha. It is not an abstract, it is a solid substance and being/entity/substance. The abstract is the symbology, the language in which you use to learn of it.
It's the same with all of the other things to be learned within the Bardon system. We don't all have to agree on the path to get to a personal understanding of this or that... just that we 'get' there, to experience it.
For myself, the hardest thing is to slow down, for I am the type to cut a hole in the ice and just jump in... to experience it. :)
I was inbreathing 30 counts of fire element, 5 of water, 5 of air, 5 of earth, and wondering if someone on the message board was singleing me out for negative black magic zaps because I'd get splitting headaches for hours. But it was just my having to learn that to me, in my system.. I had to learn that my fire is far too hightened and doesn't need that much in comparison to the other elements in my system. I just felt at the beginning that to get to the things that I wanted I would need a 'lot' of fire. :) grins. Shrugs.
Good discussion.
I wish you well,
Chuck
