Unconditional Love?

Trust me to throw in a completely new twist.....one that Shaman has hinted at....

By qualifying your question as "between the opposite sex" you're leaving out a great many folks.

Consider that those who are bisexual tend to view BOTH sexes as potential lovers in the non platonic sense. Consider too that those who are lesbian or gay view the same sex as potential lovers again in the non-platonic sense.

And as Stacie has pointed out - does the relationship demand you be platonic in order for the love to be unconditional?

Frankly - in my experience and my world view from being a student and teacher of sociology and psychology....we all enter into relationships not only to give something but to get OUR needs met.

Therefore - "UN"conditional Love would imply that you seek NOTHING in return from the relationship and only are giving.

Problem is - as human beings - keeping that ideal - that the reward is in the giving and not in getting anything back for it - is damn hard if not nearly impossible.

I think what most folks see as "unconditional" love is that someone loves you even though you view yourself as unworthy of getting their love (you're really bitchy that day - you aren't putting their needs before yours enough or as much as you perceive they put yours ahead of theirs, even when you bounce 20 checks - forget to run an errand for them - and tell them you have a headache that night they still love you, etc.).

I guess that's why I pretty much have a huge problem with the idea of "unconditional love." When we can get to the point of Loving the person who has injured us grievously....

About a week ago I had an experience in meditation where I was using Shaman's technique. During the step of "cleansing the room" I had a flash of what I see as true Unconditional Love is really to be. I saw the Love I was breathing out into the room/world as going even to that heinous criminal on death row. And found myself in tears because I KNOW that's the first time I've ever been able to do that. To for one second truly feel/believe/KNOW that that person - having done whatever it was without apology or remorse - deserved Love.

And again I go off on a ramble. *G*

Peace,
Raven

I am appropriately chastised.

I have edited that post to reflect the standards that I have insisted from others.

Mea culpa.

T

>>" Ya know, it's a true tragedy that so many of us are conditioned to see "love" as a money-like transaction, or the balance on a credit card. "<<

But in an ideal world, and for some people, that doesn't have anything to do with Love. I have found that I can serparate out Love from selfishness, insecurity, jealousy, balance-sheets, etc., because NONE of those things has ANYthing to do with Love, in my experience, and are ALL based instead on FEAR- fear of being alone, fear of not being good enough, fear of betrayal, fear of being unimportant in others' lives, fear of being unloved, etc., but not ONE of them is part of the act of loving, as I have known it in my life.

Conditioned behaviors and responses are just that- behaviors and responses. For me, Love isn't a behavior or a response at all. Love, in my experience, is purely a PROactive emotion, one that you feel withOUT need for even having it recognized. That desire for recognition, reciprocation, and acknowledgement is DISTINCT from the Love itself, and CAN be left behind when on truly finds Joy in the act of Loving Unconditionally.

For it to be truly Unconditional, I have learned that must not even need that Love to be acknowledged, although I do understand how other issues makes that a nice thing to know. Unconditional Love is just that UNconditional- NO strings, NO need for recognition, NO need to own, NO need for reciprocation. The desire for those things are nice to have, and in an optimal situation, one has those things as well as the Love one feels for another, but if there's linkage, it's not unconditional.

I hope that's not too confusing.

Love and Respect,

T

In response to Raven's post....

>>"I do realize that there are at three types of "love" as the Greeks defined them: Agape, Eros, Filios (I think this is the third if my memory isn't going wonky)"<<

I have to disagree with this in its entirety, unless you were to rephrase that "there are three types of love discussed in Greek philosophy". I AM aware that in philosopy classes and other extant texts, Love is discussed in these terms, but it's also discussed in broadly differing terms in other philosophy classes, and even in humble little houses on the north coast of California. And although you do have the three 'types' listed correctly, I have never found a difference in MY life in the emotion of Love from one person to another. CONDITIONS in the relationship, and OTHER issues like sexual desire and the urge to make a family, or physical indifference are, the best I can tell, just that- distinct and separate from the love itself. The Love I feel for a close sibling is no different than the Love I feel for one not related. I certainly feel DIFFERENT things AS WELL, but the Love, aided by that "understanding that the world, and one's being, is more complete with the existence of another", is the same.

And I do not confuse the term Love with "affection", which I also feel for many that I Love. The Greeks categorized love in those three groups as INCLUDING these differing conditions, thereby calling the love itself different, but the Greeks also considered Agape as having a sense of deference to the gods as PART of this "love", as well as knowledge that 'man' was somehow 'inferior'. Is that Love? Not in my book. Again, my experience suggests that this is greatly flawed in its approach and its conclusions, which brought great consternation to my last philosophy professor.

I would discount my experience as unique, but I HAVE known more than a few who feel this same way, and was, in fact, led to awareness of this situation by others throughout my life. My point of view here is not unique, nor is it novel. It is unconventional, but I suspect much of that has to do with a 'cultural understanding' based on the writings of the Greeks, Thomas Aquinas, and other, modern philosophers, expounding on what is "natural" for people to feel for one another.

Remember, many of these same people are just as likely to tell a man that to love another man, or a woman that to love another woman with Eros, "romantic love" per the Greeks, is in their veiw, both an aberration, and if acted upon, a grievous sin (See Paul, Aquinas, Falwell, etc.- the basis for their theories are founded in an 'edited version of the Greek'.)

Look, I go through life KNOWNG that many of my thoughts and beliefs are alien to others, and that the miserable, fearful, unconscious people we all encounter in our daily lives don't often understand that things CAN be different, but I have also seen enough others who agree entirely with this viewpoint to be confident that I am not speaking of things that are either unworkable or unfathomable. They are merely unconventional and perhaps revolutionary in that they question the status-quo that keeps so many unhappy in their relationships.

And just to be clear, my discussion of things like jealousy, insecurity, selfishness and the like being based on fear, is based on personal experience. It is through examining these things as they occurred in my life that I have arrived at these conclusions, but I have witnessed far too many 'proofs' of these ideas in my life and the lives of those around me, to consider my thoughts on this as unusual or somehow off-base.

I also mean to make no claims that arriving at such a place where one might see this reality for themselves is in any way simple. It took much emotional pain to discover that the fear I felt had nothing to do with the Love involved, but that it was internal to me, either unfouned or justified, but still distinctly outside the Love itself. Dealing with that fear separately was the solution, leading to a freedom or sorts, from the effects that it produces.

I hope this clears up my position a bit.

Peace

T

Wow. Two years since this topic's been discussed. I'm thinkin' it's time to see if there's anyone out there for whom things have changed, new folks who have something to say, or if there's just nothing worth discussing when it comes to Love and the Goddess in our lives.

Love and Respect,

T