Okay - the entry for Wikipedia on Animism is really sad and deperatly needs cleaned up and cited. I thought this could be a good opportunity to go in and make a decent Wikipedia entry for Animism in general with proper citations and research and could touch upon the work of new animism and bio-regional animism. Any one interested in helping contribute to Wikipedia?
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:52 PMI am interested but do not know anything about wiki standards. I will have to read up about it and maybe in this thread we can come up with an outline? Then volunteers can chose to write particular sections and we can collaboratively edit them in a separate thread for each one. To keep it community collaborative and organic. Or another suggestion?
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:56 PMWell, I think that's a good idea Chang, but maybe that's kind of redundant, only because the wikipedia format already kind of lends itself to that. I mean, anyone can go in and edit right? So maybe if someone just gets the ball rolling with an edit on there, others can go in and polish it. I'll be glad to help but I don't know if I could really speak on the matter as eloquently as the context deserves...... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:57 PMBut definitel both paths work though.... :) -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:28 PMI have some wiki experience, but I do feel bashful regarding my knowledge and ability to articulate animist philosophy. -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:55 PMthis needs to be added...
Other-Than-Human-Persons
Other-than-human-persons:
"A phrase coined by Irving Hallowel, Influenced by the Ojibwe of southern-central Canada. It refers to the widest possible community of living beings. For example, in the Ojibwe Language not only are humans, animals, fish, birds, and plants living, relational beings, but so too are objects-persons such as rocks and certian weather systems (the thunder-beings). The word spirits is sometimes attached to other words, as in rock spirit or tree spirit, to suggest that some rocks or trees are different from others. Hallowell's phrase has gained currency becasue it does not misrepresent the indigenous thought and experience that some rocks, trees, and storms, act as persons: that is, as relational, intentional, conscious, and communicative beings. This worldview and lifeway is now being called animism, which makes shamans both possible and necessary.
The phrase should not be misunderstood to imply that humans are the standard against which other "persons" might be compaired. Rather, the phrase arises among humans trying to talk with other humans. It is implicit that eagles might speak of eagle-persons and other then eagle persons, and so on. The understanding that humans are not the only persons also involves the notion that not all shamans are human. In Amazonia, for example, it is common knowledge that the most powerful shamans (or persons with shamanistic abilities, pay'e) are anacondas. Ambiguity and uncertainty about the way in which an other-than-human-person relates or acts toward humans may require human shamans to seek to alter their perspective to see what others see and deal appropriately with the resulting knowledge."
from:Graham Harvey and Robert J Wallis : Historical Dictionary of Shamanism
New Animism defined
New Animism:
"Arguably the proper label for the type of religion practiced among traditional indigenous people who employ shamans. Rather then being "shamanists" or adherants of "shamanism," these people may be usefully named "animists." While the term was coined by Edward Tylor ( a founder of the discipline of anthropology) to define the essence of religion as 'the belief in spirits" and has played a significant role in theories about the origins of religion, it is used here in a new way. The old theory of animism alleged that indigenous people and the earliest human ancestors had made a mistake in believing in spirits. The new theory, associated with Nurit Bird-David, Eduardo Viveiros de Castro, Signe Howell, and others, sees animism as a relational ontology- the recognition that the world is full of persons, only some of whom are human. In Irving hallowell's terms, there are human persons and other-then-human-persons, including rock persons, tree persons, cloud persons, and perhaps "spirit persons."
Animist worldviews and lifeways make it necessary for there to be shamans becasue (1) humans are relatively weak and need to seek help ( in the form of knowledge, healing, or defense) from more powerful other-then-human-persons and (2) humans often offend other-then-human-persons and need mediators in order to restore respectful relationships. In this context, shamans may be defined as those persons trained and skilled at working for their community when it is necessary to seek help from or reconciliation with the wider community of life. In turn, as Graham Harvey has argued, animism makes shamans both possible and necessary because thier roles are about dealing with the problems of the living world."
from:Graham Harvey and Robert J Wallis : Historical Dictionary of Shamanism -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 11:05 AMI've never worked with wiki either - but I will look into it and study up on the standered - there already is a good section of meterial to work from with a little nips and tucks and getting propper citations I don't think it would be to diffucult. Whoever posted it seemed to have abanded it, and it has no discussions on it :( - - I will look into it further and tell you what I've figured out -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 11:58 PMstronger points as i posted below need to go into the wikipedia description of new animism...
working from the new animism perspective... i suppose one could say a bit even about bioregional animism too... heheheh... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 10:44 AMI will have some unexpected free time this evening - and I am going to see what it will take to clean up the wikipedia animism article. and try to give an easy rundown on how to do it so others can create an account and lend a hand. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 11:47 AMany progress yet? -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:49 PMI have been going through the article that is arleady there - and it has grown and expanded incredibly from the last time I have looked. However, there is absalutly no discussion about the edits. and it has included sources - it is still taged for nutrality and needing cleaned up. Ther is even a section on New Animism quoted below!
"The new animism
In an article entitled "Animism Revisited", Nurit Bird-David builds on the work of Irving Hallowell by discussing the animist worldview and lifeway of the Nayaka of India. Hallowell had learnt from the Ojibwa of southern central Canada that the humans are only one kind of 'person' among many. There are also 'rock persons', 'eagle persons' and so on. Hallowell and Bird-David discuss the ways in which particular indigenous cultures know how to relate to particular persons (individuals or groups). There is no need to talk of metaphysics or impute non-empirical 'beliefs' in discussing animism. What is required is an openness to consider that humans are neither separate from the world nor distinct from other kinds of being in most significant ways. The new animism also makes considerably more sense of attempts to understand 'totemism' as an understanding that humans are not only closely related to other humans but also to particular animals, plants, etc. It also helps by providing a term for the communities among whom shamans work: they are animists not 'shamanists'. Shamans are employed among animist communities to engage or mediate with other-than-human persons in situations that would be fraught or dangerous for un-initiated, untrained or non-skillful people. The -ism of 'animism' should not suggest an overly systematic approach (but this is true of the lived reality of most religious people), but it is preferable to the term shamanism which has led many commentators to construct an elaborate system out of the everyday practices of animists and those they employ to engage with other-than-human persons. The new animism is most fully discussed in a recent book by Graham Harvey, Animism: Respecting the Living World. But it is also significant in the 'animist realist' novels now being written among many indigenous communities worldwide. The term 'animist realism' was coined by Harry Garuba, a Nigerian scholar of literature, in comparison with 'magical realism' that describes works such as Garcia Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude or Ben Okri's The Famished Road."
It even mentiones Graham Harvey - this is where we could expand upon new animism and include something about bio-regional animism. I am thinking. The article as it is really not that bad and quite indeptsh and fairly objective - though it relies a litt to much on Tylor's "Primitive Culture" as its source
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Fri, September 28, 2007 - 12:08 AMyech... primitive culture...
yeah thats the good part... and i think it coudld go into more detail and bioregional animism could defintely go in there as well... ive been wanting to do this for a long time.. just never felt comfortable with the wiki process... it would be awesome if you wanted to work on it and i would be happy to help...
i think the two quotes from harveys enclyclopidea of shamanism on otherr than human persons and new animism would be great to add to it... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Fri, September 28, 2007 - 12:17 PMYes - I do two - They would need to be paraphrased and then cited - where as long direct quats like that are considered bad wikipedia prodical. I can work on that this weekend - what would you like included about Bio-Regional animism as a part of New Animism? -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 12:10 AMwell for bioregional animism... i think that calling bioregional animism a relational ontology with an emphasis on place and membership with local ecological systems, would be a good place to start...
moving into the idea that it is through relationship with the other-than-human-person that is the bioregion it self which, creates the world views, life ways and practices of bioregional animist. Bioregional animism is a new way of relateing to animism inspired by the animist life ways that have come before, but in no way attempts to explain or lable those that have come before as bioregional animism, how some members of animist societies feel it describes them fittingly...
or something to that effect maybe...
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 3:43 AMHey LLB could you clarify what you mean by ontology for my sake. I'm serious, it's one of those words I can never really wrap my head around and so to better understand what you mean by relational ontology I was hoping you could give me little more detail on what you mean when you use the word ontology.
I've done a couple of cursory looks for definitions on line, but they're all pretty vague, didn't really give me an understanding of what the notion implied.
Thanks bro! :) -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 12:22 PMI think he tends to use the word ontology as opposed to something like theology, because it's not about gods, it's about "how we look at the universe around us in general"
from wikipedia:
Ontology is a study of conceptions of reality and the nature of being. In philosophy, ontology (from the Greek ὤν, genitive ὄντος: of being (part. of εἶναι: to be) and -λογία: science, study, theory) is the study of being or existence and forms the basic subject matter of metaphysics.
So the existence of a god, for instance, is part of someone's ontology, and therefore theology MUST be a subset of ontology. We take a broader view ;-} -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 12:30 PMOne of the most valuable explanations of the concept of ontology I found in a book by (bro)Ken Eagle Feather, writing about Toltecs... On the Toltec Path I think it's called...
He refers to the ontology as the "focal point" as we coalesce our energy bodies into our physical bodies, and the universe into a discrete place that we inhabit, for example.
However, that, in and of itself is an ontology... but I think it's a meta-ontology, because it addresses how and why ontologies exist. How far down does the rabbit hole go? Wheeeeeee
All ontologies are false and all are true. This particular ontology that we have a consensus agreement on most of the time, is great in that it recognizes the truth and falsehood of all ontologies and encourages considering the person rather than their view of the universe...
but that's me babbling eh? hehehehe -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 2:28 PMSo then a relational ontology is basically the essence of being, the metaphysical core so to speak, as defined and guided by relations with in this case other-than-human persons (and human persons too, eh)?
Thanks for the help Chang! :) -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 5:07 PMyes thats about right...
bioregional animism... looks at this relational ontology from a life place based perspective...
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 5:52 PMModern particle physics and the idea of "karma" are also relational ontologies in the same way that animism is one, I think... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sat, September 29, 2007 - 6:35 PMtotally... harvey actually gets into animism and physics... like quantum people and such... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Sun, September 30, 2007 - 2:44 PMI think I have met a quotam person - havent seen him for a while, untill my bear dance where he told me I am now undert the tutilage of mother and father bear. -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 12:34 AMwell tell me about it... now you got me curious... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 10:19 AMwell he was more androginous - I say he becouse i am comfortable with it, though at times it seemed more feminen and other more masculane - I often perceved it as a dragon that would change collor like a camilion or a mood ring. it had a preocupation with hapenstance, chance, chaos, randomness - which would explain my life :) -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 10:45 AMkinda like a neon figure of a human... but genderless kinda... just a energy figure/human like form? -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 11:04 AMIt was more reptilian / dragon like on average - but not always - and generally a strange black or dark - it wasn't like a solid color of mas but more an absence of mass and light - other times it was red like that . hard to describe. -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 12:44 PMthats interesting... kinda like the european dragon/spirit of nature sort of thing... kinda like turtle... -
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Re: Wikipedia Campaign
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 12:45 PMthe life force itself is some what seen in terms of being reptile...
all that silly david Icke BS aside...
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