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Scatterguns

topic posted Fri, September 21, 2007 - 10:38 AM by  Unsubscribed
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Shotguns are indesputably versatile for many survival applications, with the various slugs, rifled sabots, flechettes, and all sizes of shot...oh and don't forget the less-than-lethal and more-than-hilarious bean-bag loadings. However, in a longer-term scenario, what do you think is a better action to have? a break-open double barrel or a pump? I would *think* that a top-break was more reliable, with fewer, more rugged parts.... but I'm inexperienced here. Are pumps higher maintenance and more prone to failure in a long-run? is the additional firepower a fair tradeoff?
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    Re: Scatterguns

    Fri, September 21, 2007 - 10:44 AM
    I love the look of the SxS stagecoach guns, but I've never fired one. The couple pump action guns I've fired (Remington 870, Mossberg 500, Ithaca 37) are reliable, but I don't know about durability.

    What I'd REALLY like is bolt-action shotgun like my dad has. I'll have to email him and ask what the model is, because I can't remember for the life of me...
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      Re: Scatterguns

      Fri, September 21, 2007 - 10:50 AM
      huh...bolt action.... I've honestly never thought about a bolt-action shottie. I guess in all practicality you can use any action, even belt-fed auto I'm sure has been tested at some point or another.

      And yea, stagecoach guns definitely have my vote for 'cool' factor. In a perfect world I'd prefer a 357 vaquero, and a good matching marlin 1892 in same, and an old double trigger double barrel sawed off stagecoach.... but then there's reality, where ballistics and firepower will help you live alot longer than looking cool.
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        Re: Scatterguns

        Fri, September 21, 2007 - 1:52 PM
        Or you could go the Saiga-12 route and have a gas-powered rotating bolt.
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          Re: Scatterguns

          Fri, September 21, 2007 - 2:51 PM
          I'm a double barrel 12 gauge guy. Less to go wrong. Can be used on bad guys and geese.
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            Re: Scatterguns

            Fri, September 21, 2007 - 5:01 PM
            I just went to the local army surplus store....

            HOLY CRAP do I have to get a shottie. The plinking and mischief possibilities are just too broad to pass up.

            They have flares, they have M80's that blow up at between 6-75 yards from the barrel, they have tracer slugs, they have bean bags, they have these slugs called 'Dragons Breath' that basically spew a superhot flaming wad of who-knows-what, effectively turning your shotgun into a one-or-two second burst of 30 yard flamethrower.

            I didn't see if they have flechettes, from what I think, those are illegal so you gotta make em yourself with wire brads flattened into fletchings on one end.

            Imagine....something like Dragon's Breath and launchable M80's are legal...but not flechettes....
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              Re: Scatterguns

              Fri, September 21, 2007 - 6:47 PM
              Well, that's not entirely true. There are several states where Dragons Breath (possibly any incendiary round) are illegal. Florida being one of them that I can recall.

              Regardless, it's quite a sight to behold. Especially at night.
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                Re: Scatterguns

                Fri, September 21, 2007 - 8:05 PM
                you've seen it used? I never have. is it just a big flash like a glorified blue-dart, or does it leave burning goo on anything it touches, as per true napalm-flinging flamethrowers? Iether way, I totally want to try some!
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                  Re: Scatterguns

                  Sat, September 22, 2007 - 9:20 PM
                  There was no burning residue after the initial flame.

                  As far as targets go, I recommend shooting at something flammable but not highly combustible.
            • Re: Scatterguns

              Thu, June 19, 2008 - 8:43 PM
              Cheaper Than Dirt sells flechettes by the pound...
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                Re: Scatterguns

                Sat, February 21, 2009 - 7:21 AM
                I just watched Apaloosa and saw Viggo's 8 guage. I wish he would have blasted a few more bad guys with it. That is a big gun. Michael
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            Re: Scatterguns

            Sat, September 22, 2007 - 6:45 PM
            yea it's hard to beat the versatility of wheelguns and double barrel guns, with no moving parts involved after that pin strikes, you can put a whole lot of different load powers, sizes, and shapes through there without jamming or making a mess of things.
  • Re: Scatterguns

    Sun, December 9, 2007 - 4:21 AM
    Get a pump. If it is to save your butt, the last thing you want to be doing is breaking open the action every 2 rounds to reload while bullets are whizzing all around you. I have a Rem 870 and a SS Mos 500. Both work hard and take a serious beating. You can put food on the table, protect your butt and even signal (flares). I've never (knock on wood) had a pump shotgun fail.
  • Re: Scatterguns

    Sun, December 9, 2007 - 5:11 AM
    I have used both. Hunting wise I always go with the double barrel shot gun, more time and pateince is needed on each shot. Tactical (used to be a bail enforcement agent) I used a Rem 870 and a moss 500 marine edition, they are easier on shooting time and no need to reload after each shot. Maintenance wise the Moss 500 marine edition is hard to break it is built for salt water conditions.
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    Re: Scatterguns

    Sun, December 9, 2007 - 8:16 AM
    I'm glad that some companies have started to make more youth/women's shotguns. I'd really love to have one or two or three. The last time I fired a standard shotgun, I thought I'd broken my collarbone from the recoil, but I'm eager to try out the smaller models to see if they're more comfortable for me.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Sun, December 9, 2007 - 10:13 AM
      20ga or .410. i forget who makes the .410 just for women/self defense in mind (I think it is Mossberg). If you go 12ga. don't load with the big 3 in mag rounds...not needed and go with a semi auto. Alot of recoil is absorbed with a semi-auto action. The drawback of course is they are more finicky and can jam, though the military models seem quite reliable.
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      for Paige RE: felt recoil

      Sun, December 9, 2007 - 11:46 AM
      It is important for the firearm to fit you. With that said, felt recoil in shotguns have alot to do with how you shoulder it. If you feel like someone is hitting you with a 2x4 when firing there is a good chance you're not holding tight enough. If you hold the buttstock tight in your shoulder, when firing, it should transfer all the recoil to your body and just push you back a bit. If you feel the recoil pad hit you, the shotgun's recoil is impacting you shoulder first before your body weight can absorb it.

      Just my 2 cents, go with size stock you can hold tight with. For most people, its easier to pull tight with a stock thats alittle long than one thats alittle short.

      Hope this was of help.

      Shoot well,
      Allan
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        Re: for Paige RE: felt recoil

        Sun, December 9, 2007 - 12:21 PM
        I'm a 5' tall, light-framed woman who tried to fire a standard-sized shotgun. That experience got me over any macho notions I ever had about my ability to handle any gun. I've been shooting since I was six, so my form is good, just too much gun for my frame.

        I think I'm going to call around to the firing ranges to see if anyone has any of the smaller shotguns there that I could rent for an hour to see what I like.
        • Re: To Paige Felt recoil

          Sun, December 9, 2007 - 1:36 PM
          I started shooting 16ga when I was a child rough about 10 - 11 years of age with my grandfather. he showed me a way to shoulder the shotgun so it has almost no felt recoil. I shoulder it on the out part on my shoulder joint just above my muscle. This causes the shotgun to recoil into my arm and those moving my arm with the recoil. It is a hard thign to master but after so many years I have become a sharp shooter with slugs on 12ga.

          Yeah I understand the slamming into the shoulder on the standard stance. Your felt recoil is not an uncommon thing. Most men love to think they can handle the impact by tightening up and I have scored higher in qual's (ex- bail enforcement) with my form then everyone else. I have received many people trying to tell me I am doing it wrong. The .410 shot gun people are talking about is great for women but it is a lighter and lesser amount of shot.

          Will
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            Re: To Paige Felt recoil

            Sun, December 9, 2007 - 2:28 PM
            Another issue for women is that the breast tissue goes up much higher on the chest than you'd actually think it would and it's very sensitive tissue, bruises easily and most women don't have the upper body musculature that men do, so we don't have as much cushion between the butt of the gun and sensitive tissue and bone.

            Good points to ponder, thanks, fellas.
            • Re: To Paige Felt recoil

              Thu, December 13, 2007 - 1:19 AM
              Hmmm...I know I certainly don't have any breast tissue where I hold the stock, but then there may be a reason for that besides teh fact that I don't hold the stock on my chest. ~;p I do keep having employees at gun shops start pushing .410s and 20 gauges on me, but I prefer a 12 gauge. Not that it really matters when you're up close and personal, but maybe I can't get over the macho. Stock length and being real aware of how you're holding the gun, and yourself, do matter. Until it becomes habit, think about where the stock is AND where your elbow is...let let the elbow drop down, let the stock wander and you'll still feel a 20 gauge with no problem.

              As for the original question. I seriously like pump actions...I just wouldn't want to reload any sooner than I have to. However, I seriously would love a nice double barrel coach gun for a back up, especially a nice, well-kept, working antique like someone I know found. Yum! Which, when I think about it, does speak well for their durability.
  • Re: Scatterguns

    Sun, March 30, 2008 - 4:00 PM
    Howdy. Ultimately, I think that the double barrel is the most reliable shotgun, because of fewer moving parts. And, they and can be cut down into "whipits" or pistols should the need arise. Stoegers look like a good brand. But practically speaking, I don't think a pump Mossberg 590 or a Remington 870 is going to crap out on you. They are both proven police/military/hunting weapons. They are going to outlast your ammo stores in a full SHTF scenario, and they have larger magazines. For personal defense, I am a believer in the 12 gauge Mossberg 590A1 Mariner. Add a folding, recoil-absorbing KNOXX stock w/pistol grip, and you have a weatherproof, concealable riot gun that can't be beat. You can fire it one-handed, like a pistol, and hit your target without damaging your hand, wrist or arm. Not that you'd need to, but that is how effective the recoil-absorbing grip is.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Sun, March 30, 2008 - 6:59 PM
      Don't forget to factor in cost. 410 shells are about twice as expensive as 12 gauge. If I could only have 1 shotgun it would be something like the moss 500...something that can hold those 8 kinds of rounds you were talking about. you can always hunt with it..especially if you get a longer barrel on it... install a reloading station in a spare closet get extra wads, primers, powder and shot then you can reload your shells.
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    Re: Scatterguns

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 8:04 AM
    Here is one of my wish list guns
    www.benelliusa.com/firearms/m4.tpl
    No doubt at all that a shotgun is one of the most versatile firearms a person can own. A 12 gauge rifled slug can kill almost anything on the planet. You have to shoot a lot of different rounds to find out what works best with your particular shotgun but once you have the choices dialed in you golden.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:13 AM
      Well sure if money is not an issue I'd get a benelli too. That's like the ferrari of shotguns. Although I don't like their disclaimer at the bottom of the page "Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use." That's pretty retarded...an unloaded gun is a useless one...unless they are really really close...or really really far away.
      • Re: Scatterguns

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 9:38 AM
        I keep a short barreled 410 for my Daughters loaded with slugs. They have almost identical ballistics to the 41 magnum so they are no wimps. Both girls can handle the 410 with ease in a home defense situation.
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      Re: Scatterguns

      Mon, May 19, 2008 - 1:07 AM
      Make the Benelli M4 a box magazine fed shotgun and you'd have the pinnacle of a tactical shotgun. Well they have full auto magazine fed shotguns but the average guy can't get one legally. whuich is too bad I guess.
  • Re: Whipits

    Tue, April 29, 2008 - 10:20 PM
    Slightly off-topic, but I must attend to this. Clyde Barrow was an expert gunman, thus his success fighting the law. He researched weapons in the history books and found that the Mormon settlers in Utah used a cut-down shotgun known as a "whipit" to great effect at close range against Indians and assassins. So Clyde configured a number of whipits for Bonnie and himself. He used semi-automatic Remington shotguns. He'd saw the stock down to the bolt, then saw the barrel down to the magazine tube. Then he'd attach a short loop of rope to the end of the stock. He'd loop the shotgun over his shoulder and hide it under his coat. When he walked into a bank he'd flip the coat open and "whip" the gun up to firing position. He used a 10 or 12 gauge. Bonnie's was a 20 gauge. Clyde also turned BARs into whipits. He didn't like Tommy guns because they wouldn't stop a car and because the drum mags were unreliable (they'd jam if dented, and the springs wore out over time). But the BAR had no such problems.

    for killer photos: texashideout.tripod.com/guns.html
    • Re: Whipits

      Wed, April 30, 2008 - 4:16 PM
      My favorite is still my Glock 21 and a Glock 36 in an ankle holster. I have never had my either of my glocks malfunction, I shoot them alot am thoughrly familiar with the firearm.
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    Re: Scatterguns

    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:01 PM
    One gun that fits this category That I have always wanted a gunsmith to make me is a Howdah Pistol. A howdah is the sedan chair on the back of an elephant. When hunting tigers on elephant back sometimes the tiger would run up the elephant's trunk or flankl and attack the human hunters perched there. The solution was to make a handgun that was basically a sawed off shotgun side by side in 12 bore or 16 bore and load one barrel with buck shot and one with round ball or however you felt to load it. Barrels were about 10" long max. it's a quick pointing close quarters combat weapon par excellance. Some howdah pistols were rifle and large bore handgun calibres in fact the first were sawed off rifles and shotguns.
    Here's a picture of a Purdy Howdah Pistol in 16 bore(gauge)
    www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antiqu...ah.html
    the older ones unfortunately are damascus steel barrels and therefore can't handle modern powders. Dixie Gunworks has a .50 calibre blackpowder one for sale. But I'd like mike as a saddle holstered shotgun in at least 16 gauge.
    I also heard that someone is making a .61 calibre blackpowder howdah I think that makes it just about a 20 gauge. That's respectable, I think at the sub 10 yards distances these weapons were designed for they would be real fight stoppers.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:47 AM
      there is a contender .410 pistol that shoots 45 acp or .410 ... there are also other barrels available for other handgun options. Its very popular for highly skilled rabbit hunters . touras also makes a .410 pistol and one other company can't remember who.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Mon, May 19, 2008 - 12:15 AM
      That Howdah is one cool gun! I'd surely like one myself. Reminds me of the blunderbuss, which is one of my all-time favorites. I wish that someone would manufacture a modern blackpowder blunderbuss. I've tracked down a functional brass replica blunderbuss online, but I'd rather have a modernized design. The Tuarus "Judge" is a .410 revolver. Not legal in CA, but looks mighty effective.
  • Re: Scatterguns

    Mon, May 19, 2008 - 8:41 PM
    More useless shotgun factoids that will only interest the ghosts of Clyde Barrow and (perhaps) Bonnie Parker:

    Remember Mad Max's double barrel pistol shotgun? I do. :-) Well, another Aussie movie came out a few years ago, called "The Chopper", and lo-and-behold, Chopper Reed had a double barrel pistol shotgun (.410 in his case) in THAT movie. So I wondered, why the Aussie pistol-shotgun thing? And then recently I read that pistol shotguns have been used by outlaws Down Under for the simple reason that there aren't any actual pistols down there. Makes sense. Hell, if I was a bad guy I'd probably do the same.

    Now for duckbills. During the Vietnam "police action" (as they say), some branch of the US military developed a choke-like muzzle for combat shotguns called a duckbill. Duckbills were really cool. They were essentially two long cuts in the sides of the shotgun muzzle. What they did was, they spread the shot sideways so that the shot pattern would be rectangular rather than round. There were ratios involved, depending on the size of the muzzle cuts. Like, one duckbill might spread shot 2x horizontally for every 1x vertically. I don't have all the details because I'm too lazy to google them again and spend an hour doing the research. But that's the gist of duckbills.
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      Re: Scatterguns

      Tue, February 24, 2009 - 9:46 PM
      I picked up a sweet little rig for my 8 yr old grandson. It's made by Rossi, comes with a 20ga and 22lr barrel. Barrels interchange in nothin flat, and you can get other barrels for it too like the contenders. Gun cost me $149.00 in the box new. I thought about having one strapped on my go bag.
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      Re: Scatterguns

      Fri, March 20, 2009 - 11:53 PM
      I have owned an 870 but didn't really like it. Traded it off. I do still have a J. Stevens 12 ga. that I got off of a state trooper back when the west was still wild. Came with a 19 3/4 " barrel good for keeping in the car. Bought a 30 " barrel to change out for hunting. Not sure just how long this gun has been in service but I have hunted with it for 25 years and never one problem. As for learning how to make a shot count I picked up a Harrington And Richards single shot 12. Came with a pack of matches one spare shell and $1.00 in dimes hidden in the stock. This was not known at time of purchase. The gun dealer who sold it to me was also my shop teacher. About a year after I bought it the FBI contacted him wondering about this particular shot gun. Seems the man who sold it was caught in 1999 on the lawn of the White house. Since there was a notch carved in the stock who knows what this firearm has seen. Never had one problem with this gun either. I feel a shot gun is for hunting. You come in my house you won't even hear the hammer of my .357 coming back.
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        Re: Scatterguns

        Sat, March 21, 2009 - 12:55 AM
        I accidentally sold a a shotgun once that I had removed the buttplate from and drilled out storage in which I had put a roll of quarters and 3 100 dollar bills, and some survival gear. The guy went to the same church as me and I told him I needed to get the gun back just to check something out and he handed me $310 and we shared a laugh.
  • Re: Scatterguns

    Thu, November 5, 2009 - 11:36 AM
    My maverick 88. This baby has never let me down, and she spreads out so good. Ive got a long barrel and a full stock for hunting. but usually I keep it set up for home defense.
    • Re: Scatterguns

      Tue, November 24, 2009 - 9:09 PM
      Two thoughts on the side by side verses pump.
      Thought#1 In aiming with a side by side, one has to remember to offset your aim because of the placement of each barrel. The natural tendency is to sight down between the two barrels which will affect your shot placement either to the left or right depending the which barrel you are shooting. If you think that it doesn't matter because it is a scattergun, you are mistaken. To see what I mean, go out to a range and shoot at a target with 00 buck and see how many of the shots actually impact the target in a vital area. This is not such a problem in an over/under, but then the problem is adjusting up and down vice left and right.

      Thought #2. With a pump not only do you have more rounds available from the beginning, but you can reload without taking the gun out of action by feeding more shells in though the bottom while a round is still in the chamber. With the side by side you have to take it out of action by opening it up to reload. So the pump has a greater sustainable rate of fire. Also with pumps you can usually get a greater variety of barrels with different lengths and different chokes. I have a 20" and a 27" barrel on my Remington 870. The 20" is for home defense, the 27" is for hunting.

      The disadvantage of a pump is that it usually takes two hands to pump and fire as opposed to a break-open, which can be done with just one hand, but it takes a lot longer. If you only have one good hand, I would recommend getting an autoloader, but personally I love my 870.

      Major Dad

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