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I have been thinking also.. wondering if pesticide buildup in the mothers body..
could have anything to do with..all the kids that are autistic..
just a thought as I was posting this..
wouldn't that be an amazing study..
I have been thinking also.. wondering if pesticide buildup in the mothers body..
could have anything to do with..all the kids that are autistic..
just a thought as I was posting this..
wouldn't that be an amazing study..
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 10:38 AM<could have anything to do with..all the kids that are autistic..>
The study has already been done. To sum it all up, nada. There are no environmental links to autism. About ten years ago, an initial survey showed a possible link between autism and mercury. This link has been utterly discredited, but there are still some morons out there who will not let it go. Thousands of autistic children are subjected to collation therapy which is painful and sometimes fatal. When the therapy is done, the kids are still autistic. These coprolite brained morons are known by the rest of us as "curebies" or "mercury moms" and they are utterly beneath my contempt.
Autism is irregular brain development and no collation therapy in the world will reverse it. There are about two or three identified gene sets that regulate brain development and they are all extremely fragile. When one of those gene sets breaks, autism occurs. The increased amount of reported autism in the world is not due to environmental factors. It is due to the fact that we know more than we used to and the definition and diagnosis of autism has broadened to include more people. Even ADD and ADHD has been reclassified as autism. There are researchers who theorize that autism is the means where humans developed intelligence. My father was autistic (as I discovered years after he died.) and he could do tremendous feats of mathematics. My son is autistic and he has taught himself five languages so far. As one researcher put it, "if it were not for autistic people, the rest of us would be socializing in caves and eating raw meat".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger
www.stopjenny.com/ -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 6:30 AMI could understand that..brain damage would not be cured by collation therapy..
but Bill we have a lot more autism than before..
at least from what ...I can see
and not all kids with autism..are brilliant.. !
I could be wrong but.. asperger's and autism..are different..
or different branches of the same syndrome..
I think you are much more of an expert about this than ..I am..as you have experienced it in your own life
but honestly..there are many causes..and I know lead poisoning is a big one..Briar and I know a seriously affected young man who is autistic from lead poisoning as a child..
so it stands to reason..that mercury could do the same thing..as well as many other contaminants in our environment..
many causes I would think of brain damage~ -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 10:40 AM>Briar and I know a seriously affected young man who is autistic from lead poisoning as a child.. <
We do? I'm trying to think who. If you mean Colin, lead poisoning as a *cause* was never established. The family did have a lead paint incident but it happened when the boy was several years old, way after it had long been apparent that there was something the matter with him.
Yes, Asperger's is considered a form of autism, or as they say, it occupies a place on the autistic spectrum. And the more that spectrum lengthens to accommodate more types of people (ADD? ADHD?) the more I wonder how pathological the autistic/neurotypical distinction is. At least at the Asperger's end. There's a really, really broad overlap of mild Asperger's (which is considered a clinical condition) with extreme Introversion (which is considered a personality type.) I *know* that I am an extreme Introvert; and certain "tests" that I've done online have told me that I "most likely" have Asperger's, but I've never been clinically diagnosed, so I don't *know.* What I do know is that whatever I am is the only thing that feels normal for me to be, and I have found ways to manage living in a world that doesn't venture very far into *my* world. I am also thankful that I was gifted with the flexibility of perspective to do that. That remains a challenge for many with very serious Autism.
It's true too that Aspies' "wiring" often produces brilliantly analytical Bill Gates mentalities and so does Introversion, and it's true that while Introverts are an overall minority, they are a majority among the gifted. I'm *not* entirely sure that it has been established that people with autism are a majority among the gifted. I'm sure there is much more going on in the autistic mind than it was once given credit for, because we have people like Temple Grandin and Dale Gardner, but until the NTs' efforts to help them crack the socialization codes have a more consistent track record, it won't be known for sure how brilliant autism is on the whole. Autism thinks differently. I don't think it necessarily follows that it always thinks better, or that broken gene sets in brain development were the impetus driving the It may turn out that the population with autism has a distribution like most others--a few real laser beams, a majority of incandescents of respectable-to-above average smarts, and a few with no batteries in the flashlight. It's one thing to want to see that a neglected, underrated, or systematically shortchanged group be given its chance to live happily and productively, but claiming that humans would still be eating raw meat in caves were it not for autism is a pretty sweeping statement. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 11:24 AM<It's one thing to want to see that a neglected, underrated, or systematically shortchanged group be given its chance to live happily and productively, but claiming that humans would still be eating raw meat in caves were it not for autism is a pretty sweeping statement.>
Briar,
Your post was an utter delight. I cannot express to you how happy and delighted I am to meet somebody whose views on autism is based on facts and not quack remedies and Jenny McCarthy. Yours is one of the most informed statements about autism I have seen outside of a medical professional's. You are right, the raw meat remark is a very sweeping statement, but it was only to demonstrate autism's role in the random mutations that created human intelligence. As I said to Heroness, not all random mutations are viable.
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 11:18 AM<but honestly..there are many causes..and I know lead poisoning is a big one..Briar and I know a seriously affected young man who is autistic from lead poisoning as a child.. >
First of all, autism is not brain damage. Autistic people have perfectly healthy brains. They have simply developed differently than our own. As I explained before, there are more cases of autism because we know more about autism. My father was autistic. In his later years he went from doctor to doctor and mental hospital to mental hospital, trying to discover the cause of his affliction. Medication did not solve his depression. It only made him psychotic. We finally diagnosed the problem after he died. We simply did not know enough about autism to understand how to help him.
Today, ADD and ADHD have all been reclassified as forms of autism. That caused the autism statistics to rise tremendously. Then there were other forms of autism discovered. When Doc was born, Asperger's syndrome was not even know. (He's 19 now.) Doc was six years old before we got a solid diagnoses of Asperger's. The recognition of different forms of autism has also caused the autism statistics to rise tremendously.
Autism is no longer a diagnoses in itself. Autism is a spectrum of different ways the brain develops. The number of autistic people who are really mentally debilitated is much lower than the stereotypes would have you think. For instance, let me introduce you to Amanda Baggs, my favorite Autistic Rights champion.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
Yes, Amanda is not really verbally communicative. This is true with many autistic people, and Amanda has won the Pulitzer. Many autistic people are not able to communicate verbally but are able to communicate with a keyboard. My son sometimes forgets how to talk. (Asperger's Syndrome) The internet is his preferred means of communication. Sometimes autistic people simply cannot survive in this world. That's the problem with random mutations. They are not always viable. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 1:04 PMBill..I really enjoyed meeting Amanda...
and was so impressed with the interaction with stimuli..
almost like ..being in the moment..
mindfullness..philosopy
especially when was interacting with the water.. how many of us..take the time..to be in such a moment!
and realize the stimulus we are getting from such an interaction.. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 2:17 PM<especially when was interacting with the water.. how many of us..take the time..to be in such a moment! >
How many of us have brains that have developed so that we can appreciate such a moment?
On the other hand, autistic people tend to be hypersensitive and have different physical reactions to stimuli. For instance, my son cannot go outside during daylight unless he is wearing a broad brimmed hat and double sunglasses. The stimulation from light will cause a migraine. I cannot bring him into crowds. He will freeze and be unable to move. The stimulation causes a seizure-like condition.
After 19 years I have come to accept his fascination with shiny doorknobs and his extensive doorknob collection. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 1:15 PMI used to be a lot closer than I am now to the family with the little boy named Colin, and he was diagnosed with "pervasive developmental delay with atypical autism." He used to play with water like Amanda does in the video! I don't know first hand how he's turned out--when I knew him he talked in sound bytes,seemingly random riffs he'd picked up from TV. You couldn't really have a conversation with him. Oh--and he was just nuts about the Creature From the Black Lagoon! It's all he ever wanted to be for Hallowe'en. I do know he's in Middle School or High School now and I've heard he's becoming a talented artist like his dad and his uncle, but I don't know how equipped he is becoming for ever living on his own.
I used to manage the Subway sandwich shop here in town (for an Introvert, just about as awful a kind of job as you can imagine! but that's another story) and there was a mother who used to come in with her autistic adult son. He had a fascination with trains and knew endless technical railroad information, and he had all the local freight train runs pegged and was always badgering his mother to drive him to the tracks at this time or that time to watch trains and identify where the cars came from, and what they were carrying, and on and on. (I've since learned train stuff's a classic for people with autism.) Andy had developed language and had this obviously superior aptitude for cataloging data, but he had no social clue why he could not demand "More olives! More olives!" repeatedly and endlessly as I was making his sub, until he'd have a two pound pile of black olives on bread, if his mother would let him; and he was living in a group home. And that's the thing with this kind of brain development, I guess, when it's extreme, and Bill, you hit the nail on the head when you said that sometimes random mutations are not viable in this world.
I'm not a "curebie" (a brain is what it is, once it's developed) and I respect empirical data and don't buy into stuff unsupported or discredited by properly done independent studies. But I am not opposed to continuing efforts to discover causes for these kinds of mutations, because when they are extreme I wonder if the superiority of the intellect is worth the suffering and frustration I imagine some of these people experience--think of how it must feel: just cast adrift without a clue how to make sense of the social world that is the key to being able to live independently. I sense that my suggesting we keep looking for causes makes me suspect, somehow, to some advocates for people with autism. I wonder, if we learn the causes, if we might someday prevent some of these mutations, at least when they are very extreme. But I sense that position puts me in a tug-of-war between people who would consider prevention of autism compassion and those who would consider it invalidating of people with autism. Both sides have a point, but, meaning well, I dread finding myself "beneath contempt." And I think a lot of well-meaning people get put off by polarization, and don't give of themselves to deserving causes because they feel "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
Amanda really intrigues me too. She has concepts to convey and she knows exactly how to convey them, she just happens to communicate better via a keyboard than verbally. She and I are not too different in that I need to process and organize my thoughts and much prefer careful composition to trying to speak on the spot. How we do differ is that Amanda's interaction with her environment is direct, overt and flamboyant, and I don't pick up phones and stuff and taste them (although I do like to smell books!) Amanda's self awareness and her use of language to explain her environmental interaction makes me suspect that she also understands when she can get away with picking up stuff and tasting it, and when she can't expect to. Because she conceives a need to explain herself, I think she has learned how to adopt alternative perspective, in other words has a theory of mind. I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression the video was a demonstration of her *preferred* mode of interaction, not necessarily how she behaves when she's trying to get by among neurotypicals. And bridging that gap has been the big focus of most programs for people with autism, at least as I understand the situation.
What has taken me aback is how politicized autism has become. Well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me, should it--because everything gets like that. But you have on the one hand people advocating to push communication and linguistic development because they see it as key to autistic people getting their needs met in our society. And on the other hand you have people who are down on the emphasis on language because they're afraid the use of language will shut autistic people out of
getting further services they may need--ie, by making them seem "cured," thereby no longer in need of services. And yet the whole purpose for the services is so people with autism can live up to their potential in a neurotypical society, and being conversant in that society is, for better or worse, the key to that. So if both sides could try and work together to educate policy makers and help create policy, maybe people with autism could have language AND access to the further services they need. Because on the one hand ideology is all very well, but there are practical concerns, and people have to live, and equip themselves to do it the best they can.
So practicality is telling me it's not bad or unforgivably invalidating to keep gently trying to open up our world to people with autism, because it's just not realistic to expect that it's going to go very much in the opposite way. Say you woke up in a foreign country--the culture you wake up in has keys you don't have, and the better you want to function, the more of those keys you need to get copies of. It's always nice if there's a Chinatown or an American quarter to retreat to when you need to just relax into the communication you're used to, without having to think about it, and it's nice when other people try to learn your language some too, and certainly the effort might enrich them--but they're not going to phase shift their culture en masse to your language, that's just the way it is.
So I guess what I'm saying is, there are advocates on both sides of the controversy who are motivated by genuine compassion, and if both sides could give each other a little more benefit of the doubt and try to work together, both the neurotypical world and the world of autism would feel a little friendlier. And in friendly territory, people get more stuff done.
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 2:08 PM<So I guess what I'm saying is, there are advocates on both sides of the controversy who are motivated by genuine compassion, and if both sides could give each other a little more benefit of the doubt and try to work together, both the neurotypical world and the world of autism would feel a little friendlier. And in friendly territory, people get more stuff done.>
The problem is the curebie shit. Autistic adults and their support groups are terrified of these people. As my son puts it, "if we don't do something about these lunatics they will be sending us to the camps and cremating us in the ovens." To put it bluntly, the curebies are certifiably insane. Over in Boston, in your back yard, there is an institution called the Judge Rothenberg Center. (AKA the Judge Rotten Bastard Center) where autistic kids are tortured in the name of therapy. They are burned by electric shocks, starved through inadequate diets, punished through sensory deprivation, and many kids have died in that hell hole. Now that torturing gay kids is no longer considered therapy, there are Christianoid treatment centers that have turned their attention to autism. Instead of trying to teach kids to be straight by electroshocking their genitals, they try to teach autistic kids to be neurotipical by doing the same thing.
So you have to expect a reaction when you mention autism research and be very clear about what you are saying. These insane bastards have us freaked and even I have flown of the handle by assuming somebody who was being a curebie when they were really being as reasonable as you are. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 2:31 PMI would certainly never support torturing autistic kids! I had no idea this Judge Rotten-whoever center even existed. If they are doing those kinds of things, they should be stopped and held accountable for what they have done. I don't think useful knowledge is much served by committing atrocities. I'd think we would want instead to understand how it is *normal* for the autistic brain to function, not how much weird and perverted crap it takes to send it off the deep end or bludgeon it into submission. Many of us who aren't right in the center of this issue aren't real up on who the key players are or what they're doing. I do know there's a group called "Autism Speaks," who a lot of advocates are very critical of, and that this group has been at the center of a lot of controversy over vaccines, and that many advocates feel the organization stigmatizes people with autism. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 2:57 PMGood gawd! This Judge Rotenburg Center doesn't even make any secret of their electric shock aversives--it's right up on their website in the FAQ!
"JRC's skin-shock therapy (not to be confused with the psychiatric procedure known as electroconvulsive shock therapy or ECT) is a behavior modification procedure in which a mild current from a battery operated device is passed for a two-second period through a small area of the surface of the skin of an arm or leg. The sensation has been compared to a bee sting with no after-sensation. It has no significant negative side effects."
I had a sting once. The pain was excruciating. I think the only reason it didn't have "significant negative side effects" is because I know the hornet didn't know any better. If humans were doing something like that to me I think I'd be out to kill them.
I'm surprised this outfit is allowed to operate.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 4:51 PM<I do know there's a group called "Autism Speaks," who a lot of advocates are very critical of, and that this group has been at the center of a lot of controversy over vaccines, and that many advocates feel the organization stigmatizes people with autism.>
Autism speaks is also the main advocates for The Judge Rotten Bastard Center and the other aversive therapy centers in the South and the Midwest. These centers are illegal in most of the US. -
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Re: Pesticides & Parkinson's~
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 5:15 PMI thought aversion therapy had gone the way of the dodo. It's sickening to see it still happening right here in Massachusetts. Hell, teachers pretty much can't even whack a bratty kid on the ass anymore, and yet people are getting electric shocks in this institution.
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