The tuck-your-pelvis mantra worries me a bit. I get the feeling that it was originally meant to correct something--sticking the butt out and/or arching the back-that beginners especially tend to do. But overcorrecting can result in injury too.

I try to approach the posture by tucking, then loosening up on the tuck a bit so that I feel comfortable and strong. Abs engaged, but not rigidly. Natural curve to the back, not flat or arched. And as you said, everyone's anatomy is different, different people may use muscles differently to achieve similar results--and some people may appear to be arching their back when they actually just have a very deep curve to their back.

I find that if I either arch or overtuck, I wind up with lower back issues (especially in workshops where the tuck is stressed and checked with eagle eyes of someone I probably admire a great deal).

Basic principle: if it hurts me, I stop doing it.

I believe its the straightening of the back that's important. I usually call it a sit rather than a tuck. When I teach, I tell students to imagine there's a short wall behind them that's about an inch below their butt and to sit on it. That usually does the trick.

I tell my students to tuck by pulling in their belly button towards their spine, with the glutes loose. The lower abdominals and the psoas should be doing the work. It takes time to get in touch with both the lower abs and the psoas, though, so beginners aren't going to get the feel of it right away.

if i use my glutes then my pelvis doesn't tuck AT ALL, it pushes forward, but the arch in the lumbar is still there. i think it's better to think of it as neutral pelvis than tucked, i heard that too tucked is bad, plus if i pull it with my abs for all of it my torso shortens up and tenses up. when i feel like i have it right, and things feel all nice and in the right spot there it's a combination of engaging lower abs and bending my knees so that my hips let my pelvis tilt, and using Shira's visualization of the weight pulling from your tailbone.
hope that helps ^_^

Though I learned about this from ballroom dance and not bellydance, I think the same basic principles apply. I was constantly driven on this point because my booty pokes out a bit, and even though I am tucking in, it never looks like it.

The reason for tucking in though, is to actually allow for better ground movement and coverage without compressing the spine. So the thing you want to think about is lengthening the spine. Try this: stand in a ski position and drop/tilt your hips to be parallel with the floor, you actually shouldn't be doing MUCH contracting with this (you use all three groups to an extent), but it will be a noticeable shift in position. It should feel natural, even if you have to put a little mental effort into it.

If your sacrum has muscles that are short however, this could actually hurt and would be harder to release those muscles which need to be for the hips to tilt in the back. In which case you would need to stretch them out before anything else.

As a physical therapist and dance teacher, I prefer neutral pelvis to “tucking under”. Neutral is the position that respects the natural curvature of our spine which is the most stable position and allows for the most movement potential. By tucking under, one creates the illusion of lengthening the low back, but in reality, it compresses the front of the spine. It creates a “gapping” of the back spine that actually increases tension in the low back muscles in an effort to create stability.

Here are some excerpts from an article that I wrote for Zaghareet! a few years back. It talks about neutral, how to find it, and what muscles are involved.

Core Strengthening for Dancers: Fundamentals

Engage your core. How many times have you heard that phrase in movement classes and workshops? How many of you would love to do just that, but you don’t necessarily know how to do that? Don’t worry. You are not alone. Strengthening the core muscles is very important in providing support, stability, and safety in all of your movements, and belly dance is no exception. But what are these muscles, and better yet, “How do I engage them?” In this issue, we will focus on learning about the anatomy of the core, how to be more aware of it, and how to engage it. In future issues, we will discuss how to integrate these fundamentals into several core strengthening activities.

The core we will discuss here consists of the abdominal, back, diaphragm, and pelvic floor muscles. Together, they create a 3 dimensional cylinder or corset of support for us. The diaphragm is the top, the pelvic floor the bottom, the abdominal muscles (especially the transverse abdominis – the 4th layer and deepest abdominal muscle) are the front, and the back muscles (especially the multifidus – a deep back muscle) are the back. These muscles work together to help you maintain your balance, support your entire body, and maintain healthy posture.

Neutral Spine

First, let’s become acquainted with neutral. It will help you to have a more natural lower back alignment which will help reduce pressure off your joints and nerves, provide length and space to your spine, and help you to become used to using your internal musculature (which is more efficient) versus using the (often overworked) superficial muscles to support the spine.

Lie on your back with your knees bent and the soles of the feet on the floor.
Place the heels of your hands on your ASISs (boney spots on the left and right front aspect of your pelvis and place your fingertips on your pubic bone). Your hands should make a triangle. Neutral pelvis is where this triangle is parallel to the floor and ceiling with all 3 points in the same plane. There will be a slight arch in your low back. This is its natural curve. When the back is flat into the floor with the tailbone tucked and the pubic bone is higher than the ASISs, the pelvis is in a posterior pelvic tilt. When the back is deeply arched with the tailbone is moving towards the floor and the ASISs are higher than the pubic bone, the pelvis is in an anterior pelvic tilt.

Now, we shall take it to standing. In this position, your triangle should be perpendicular to the floor. You want to use the triangle points for reference for neutral as opposed to looking at the buttocks and low back. We all vary so much in the curvature in this area, and larger buttocks may give the illusion of an excessive low back arch when a person may in fact be in neutral. Having these individuals “tuck” puts them in a posterior pelvic tilt which is an unsafe place to hold their posture for long periods of time. In standing, your triangle should be perpendicular to the floor. An image that might be helpful here is imagine your pelvis as a bowl filled with water. You want the water in the bowl to be parallel to the floor. If you arch your back too much (anterior pelvic tilt) the water would tip out of the bowl. If you are tucked under too far and rounding your low back (posterior pelvic tilt) the water would spill back behind you.

Awareness Exercises to Find Core Muscles

Navel to Spine – Transverse Abdominis

The easiest way to find this muscle is to place your hands on your lower abdomen and cough. The muscles that tighten under your hands are the deep abdominal muscles.

Find neutral pelvis lying down or standing. Now imagine you have a string attached to the inside of your belly button. Imagine pulling this string in and up towards the back of your rib cage. You should feel a sense of scooping the abdominals in and up under the ribs. The trick is to do this without using your feet, tensing your gluts, legs, or upper body, and without moving the lower back and pelvis out of neutral. It is a very subtle contraction once you get it. When you first start, it may be easier to start the contraction with an exhale and to release on an inhale. Once you get the movement though, try to do this without being dependent on the breath. Gradually work up to increasing length of time you can hold it without feeling a sense of hardening in the body. This is what your teacher is talking about when she instructs you to engage you core during class to help protect your back.

All I can tell you is that my instructor is always specific. "Tuck your pelvis using your lower abs. Do not use your glutes."

"Shimmy using your hips. Loosen everything – loosen your glutes. Loosen your abs…" and so on.

Hi,

I hate the language "tuck your pelvis" because I think it leaves so much room for misinterpretation. My understanding is that the tail bone should point toward the floor and the perineum should be open or relaxed. This allows energy and movement to flow. I think both those actions are more difficult to accomplish if your abs or glutes are engaged.

Taaj
www.taaj.org

I think there is definitely such a thing as too much tucking, especially when constantly done with specific muscle groups. I've bellydanced for three years and recently took up yoga as well. In yoga, where I was repeatedly commanded to relax my abs, I have found that I no longer can.

Honestly. My lower abs are now constantly in a state of half-contraction -- when I concentrate and attempt to loosen up all the way, it feels like my insides are turning inside-out. And the instant I stop thinking about it they're taut again. I fear this may be unhealthy.

Don't let this happen to you! Follow the neutral-pelvis instructions. :)

Hi Muna! I don't use the words, "Tuck your pelvis," with my students for exactly the reason you gave - it can cause people to respond in a way I didn't intend.

So instead, I tell them, "Make your tailbone heavy, really heavy. Relax your glutes. Pull your navel back toward your spine." If I'm teaching them to sway the pelvis forward and backward, as they move into the back position I'll tell them to tuck their tails between their legs like a dog being scolded.

Interesting thread!

I usually tell my students to pretend they have a tail off of the tail bone and it is pointed to the floor (not forward or back - just down). I explain to them to use the lower abs and not the gluts - in fact I have them check to make sure the gluts are not tight bc you are right that then ups/glut squeeze type moves would be hard.

One great exercise to understand posture it to get a bosu ball and stand on it....great for new dancers to stand bc they have to use the abs not the booty with slightly bent knees...I use that with my students often.

I like the point you are making...I think many do not break down exactly what muscles we are using and it is sooo important to protect the back and for technique.

It's been an eye opener for me to learn that not everyone even agrees on what the best posture is. I've found an approach that's different from the mainstream that really makes sense to me.

I was tucking my pelvis (as I understood it) per instructions of my PT, but my lower back pain was actually becoming worse. I found a book by Esther Gokhale which made so much sense to me, both intuitively and in terms of my experience. What she advocates is different than the prevalent ideas about posture, and is based on convincing logic and reference to the way people stand, sit and use their bodies in other cultures and times. The pictures of people with ideal posture and convincing in and of themselves.

She differs with the current thinking about the spinal curve and ideal pelvic positioning. She talks about the reason for having an "anteverted" pelvis, which both honors the unique wedge shape disc between the L5 -S1 and gives the pelvic organs more support due to the positioning of the public bone. I had already discovered on my own that contracting my gluts (maximus and medius) more (which I noticed changed both the position of my pelvis and corrected an inward rotation of my knees), made my lower back feel better and more supported.

Her book has 8 lessons. I haven't even started them yet but have incorporated some of her ideas into my daily movements and it has already made a world of difference. Simply changing the tilt of my pelvis has pretty much eliminated by low back pain. I have other problems to correct, like an overly swayed back and more, but her lessons are very thorough and quite ingenious, so I'm optimistic about correcting other things through her method.

So funny I was having this conversation with my Tribal instructor last night. My sway back makes it difficult for the tuck pelvis. Neutral does sound better.

Interesting.

I always learn stuff in this tribe. :)

I think you have some valid questions. I got the instructional book from Zanbaka and that explains a lot she has currently 2 volumes working on 3 as we speak.

BUMP

i refference this all the time, so i'm sure the info would be helpful to people ^_^

Hi there,
The way that I teach to tuck the pelvis is to use the lower back muscles and lower abdominal muscles. You want to make sure your knees are bent, another basic of posture, but this will ensure that tucking feels comfortable. What you said about engaging the core muscles as protective support is VERY true. Tucking the pelvis has two purposes. One, and most importantly, it protects the lower back. If you perform certain hip movements without tucking your pelvis you can actually seriously injure your lower back. Second, it will greatly increase your range of lateral and vertical movement through the hips.
However, I will not that you don't want to use the glutes to tuck. Using the glutes will soemtimes overcompensate, tucking too much. Also, if you need to use your glutes for anything else (walking, glute squeezes) they'll be contracted and you won't be able to use them.

i personally have a biiiiiiig booty, and no matter how much i 'tuck' it still looks like im stucking my butt out...

thats something thats always bugged me. each body is different, has fat in different spots, is conformed differently, has more movement in some joint or spot than others. no matter what i do, sometimes i cant make a move or posture APPEAR exactly the same as another body. so bottom line it should be about safety and protecting the body. but yeah, everyone interprets things differently, feels more comfortable one way than another, etc. i cant over-tuck without feeling a strain on my lower back, or losing range of movement in my hips and sides, no matter how my back ends up looking!
i just cant FLATTEN it without going to un-natural/comfortable lengths, not even while laying on the floor, thanks to my genes telling my body to store fat in my rear!