Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

topic posted Tue, November 4, 2008 - 4:03 PM by  Unsubscribed
I am having some really debilitating sciatica right now due to degenerative disc disease. Had a discectomy a couple years ago and the pain is constant but usually tolerable. Been dealing with a terrible flare since 2nd week of September, can't sit in the car or at the movies or at church, etc. I have an inversion table that I can use for about 10 minutes at a time, does anyone know if this helps over time? Also, I've been trying to stretch more and keep watch over my posture. I have pain meds, but I'm taking so much that they're starting not to work. Omis, mayas and crescents are all hurting me a ton right now. Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to get some relief? Almost the only thing that takes some of the edge off is standing up, but my left knee ( left side is the sciatica) has some swelling and tenderness (like when you bump your head and get a goose-egg and it feels swollen and hurts to touch it) behind the knee cap, in the back, so standing for too long gets that to hurting. I can sit for a minute to take the pressure off the knee, but I can't have anything touching it, like the chair edge or my other leg. But then sitting too long leaves me feeling like I'm sitting on knives...anyone know anything that can help?
Thank you!!!
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    Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Tue, November 4, 2008 - 4:09 PM
    Find yourself a pilates teacher that knows and understands both sciatica and how to deal with degenerative disc issues. Pilates will help create support around the spine and alignment, which will help tremendously with the pain. And hopefully get you dancing again asap. Best of luck!

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      Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

      Wed, November 5, 2008 - 9:15 AM
      I say this not as a blanket statement for the benefits of Pilates, but because we talk a lot about spinal health and specifically about both these issues. Unfortunately both sciatica and separately degenerative/bulging/crushed disc issues are so common.
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        Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

        Wed, November 5, 2008 - 9:56 AM
        Thank you Aubre, I appreciate your advice, I have new meds as of yesterday, but its heavy duty narcotics and I'm worried about side efects, I will look into the way....I'm a big fan of yours, what a gorgeous dancer you are!
  • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Wed, November 5, 2008 - 11:46 AM
    Perizada, I don't have any direct experience with disc-related back problems, but I can tell you that sciatica is often associated with tense, knotted up muscles in the lower back. So I'm going to focus my response on things that help in general with back pain.

    If you were my belly dance student, here are things I'd be trying to do with you:

    * Check whether you're doing your moves in a swayback position. If so, work with you to cultivate a more healthy posture.
    * Check whether you're doing your moves with knock knees (knees pointed inward instead of straight ahead). If so, work with you to fix that.
    * Teach you some psoas (hip flexor) stretches and urge you to take 10 minutes a day to do them. These help correct swayback.
    * Teach you some hamstring stretches. My favorite is to lie on my back with my feet up on the wall and then just relax into that position for a few deep, slow breaths. Tight hamstrings can make lower back muscles tight. Tight lower back muscles can cause sciatic nerve pain.
    * Teach you some glute stretches. Tight glutes can cause tight lower back muscles, which in turn... well, you know. One glute stretch is to line on your back, legs straight and relaxed on the floor. Pick up one knee, hug your hands around it, and draw it up to your chest. Hold it for a couple of breaths. Then repeat on other side. Do it again on each side.

    My mother had really bad sciatic nerve pain. A physical therapist did an ultrasound treatment for her, and it was enormously helpful. So you might want to ask your doctor if that could be an option for you.

    FYI, the belly dance moves you mentioned (omis, mayas, crescents) all make intensive use of the lower back. I'm guessing that this is causing your lower back muscles to knot up, and I'm also guessing that your belly dancing teacher doesn't do any of the above stretches at the end of class to help loosen up those muscles. Knotted-up lower back muscles do cause sciatic nerve pain. So, if you're in class and trying to do these moves and starting to feel pain, try this:

    1. Stop doing the move.
    2. With your palms flat, slap yourself gently a whole bunch of times back and forth across your lower back. This motion will help loosen up the tension that built up from doing the dance move.
    3. Do the traditional American shimmy (the one that's hip-focused rather than knee-focused) - the jiggling of the lower back muscles helps loosen the tension.
    4. Do this stretch: stand with one foot slightly in front of the other. Lean forward and place your hands on your knees. Now, in this position, tuck your tail between your legs like a dog being scolded.
    • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

      Wed, November 5, 2008 - 12:09 PM
      Shira – can the hip flexor stretches be described here? I don't have the low back issues, but I often feel massive tightness in the hip flexors and have no idea how to stretch them.
      • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

        Wed, November 5, 2008 - 2:27 PM
        Certain types of lunges are good for stretching psoas (hip flexors).

        For those who have knee problems, try this one - it's kinder on the knees than some other lunge types:

        1. Stand in front of a couch that is fully pushed up against the wall.
        2. Place one foot on the cushion.
        3. Place the other foot behind you a comfortable distance.
        4. Lean forward into a lunge, with the focus being on pressing your "leg-pit" of the side with the straight knee down toward the floor. BE VERY AWARE OF THE POSITION OF YOUR BENT KNEE. In particular, the knee should not go any farther forward than the toes. If it does, you risk hyper-extending the knee, which can injure it. The first few times you do this exercise you might want to ask someone to watch you and alert you if you're letting the knee creep forward.
        5. Repeat on other side.

        You can experiment with the above by trying your back foot differing distances from the couch. Another variation is to try using something of a different height for your front foot. Experiment until you find the combination that really stretches your "leg-pit".

        For people who have good knees and want to try another lunge variation that stretches the psoas, try this one. You may want to put something slightly padded such as a rug under where your knees will be:

        1. Stand with feet together, toes pointing straight forward.
        2. Slide one foot behind you,allowing your front knee to bend, until your back leg is fully extended behind you and the front knee is bent in a squatting position. Ok to put your hands on the floor for stability.
        3. Check your front knee. Make sure it is NOT any farther forward than your toes, because pushing it too far forward can hyperextend and cause injury.
        4. Now, while holding this position, press the "leg-pit" on your straightened leg toward the floor, You don't have to actually touch the floor with it, just press it downward. Do this for a few breaths.
        5. Now, let the knee on the straightened leg rest on the ground, so that the knee itself, the shin, and the foot are all lying on the ground. Once again, press the "leg-pit" toward the floor. This stretches it in a different way from step 4. Do this for a few breaths.
        6. Now, for you over-achievers, reach behind you with your hand, grasp the ankle of the leg behind you, and pull your foot up into the air. This will stretch not only your psoas but also your quad. Again, hold for a few breaths.

        Repeat the above on the other side.

        I would imagine yoga sun salutes would be beneficial too, but I prefer the above stretches for psoas-specific work.
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      Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

      Wed, November 5, 2008 - 1:48 PM
      Thank you so much for your reply Shira! I'm going to try everything you mention.

      In the hamstring stretch you describe, is it with my bum against the wall too, or just my feet? Like how high up the wall?

      Thank you Duck for asking about a description on the hip flexor stretching, I would like to know too, Shira, would you mind a brief description of that one?

      I had a physical therapist for the recovery after my surgery, she never mentioned an ultrasound treatment but I did go through the process of getting a TENS Unit, I couldn't say with a surety that it helps or no.
      I did have several epidural blocks (I had all 6 of my kids with no drugs or help and then I end up with epidurals anyway for my back...geez) but the inflammation in the area to be blocked was so massive that every time he inserted the needle, rooted around and found the 'spot'....I blacked out from the pain of it, that got old after awhile and I didn't feel it was worth it. So I tried nerve root blocks but they didn't help either even tho I got to be anesthesized for them, small perk. We ran out of money for treatments and I have just been using the stretches I know, the table, and the meds for the most part since.

      I'm excited to try slapping myself silly during my next dance class, that will be fun to watch everyone's faces. I usually try to avoid faces but I think I'm going to have to see them this time.

      Thank you again so much for taking the time to help me, I much appreciate it!!.
      • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

        Wed, November 5, 2008 - 2:41 PM
        On the hamstring stretch, the question of how close to put your bum to the wall depends on how tight your hamstrings are. I have my students do all the stretches described in this thread in the cooldown at the end of every belly dance class, because so many of the belly dance moves use the lower back and can make it tighten up, and all of the stretches I've described on this thread help release that tension. I have some students who are flexible enough to put their bums all the way against the wall, and others who need to position themselves some distance from the wall. Here's the guideline I give my students: position yourself so that you definitely feel an edge in your hamstrings. Ie, they're definitely feeling stretched. BUT, you should feel as though you COULD go further if you wanted to, you just don't feel the need to go further because it's juicy in the current position.

        Sometimes, in the above stretch, I suggest that they use their hands to squeeze the backs of their legs while holding the position. The aim is to let the hamstrings themselves relax while being held in this position.

        Usually, after the class has done the above stretch, I have them continue lying on the floor, but bend their knees, place their feet against the wall, and use the pressure of their leg muscles to cause the bum to lift off the floor. I have them experiment with how high to lift it off the floor - until it feels "juicy". The specific height that's juicy for a person will depend on which part of her back is having tension. For sciatic nerve pain, I'm guessing you won't have to lift very far off the floor because it's your lower back. Once you find the "juicy" position, hold yourself there. Again, let your leg muscles do all the work, and try to make your back relax into it.

        While you're in this position, take a s-l-o-w deep breath and as you do so, think of mentally directing your breath to flow to the tight spot in your back. Think about sending life-giving oxygen to that area. Steer your brain's focus to that area, and encourage the tight muscles to relax. When ready, go ahead and exhale, and mentally feel the back relaxing as the breath leaves your body. In my class cool-downs, I have my students do about 3-4 such breaths, focusing each time on directing the breath to their problem spot, then feeling the pressure release as they exhale.

        I don't know whether you've ever heard me mention it here on tribe or on bhuz, but I was in a car accident in 1975 that injured my back. I have the additional complication of scoliosis. The stretches I'm describing are ones that I have found helpful over the years.

        With all the stretches I've described in this thread, approach them with the attitude that you love your body, and you are offering it this stretch as a gift. And always keep your brain/focus on the sensation you are experiencing while you stretch, so that you don't cause further injury to yourself through pushing too far or sloppy technique.
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    Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Wed, November 5, 2008 - 7:18 PM
    i asked my dad (chiropractor) this is what he said:
    "Sounds like more than one issue. Sciatica from DDD and nerve root irritation will not cause knee joint swelling, so perhaps some internal derangement in the knee is the cause of at least some of the pain. Swelling in the knee can be a sign of cartilage, ligament damage, or in some cases infection.
    Inversion can be helpful to a point re the disc and LB, but is generally contraindicated in knee pathology.
    I recommend assessing the knee separately and determine to what degree this may be causing your pain.
    Do you have LBP that has increased, or is the pain solely in the knee/ leg? Running a temp? Any new trauma or activity?
    Core work and flexibility are key to managing a discopathy, but disc herniations do recur with some frequency.
    Look at the knee and LB separately as they may be conspiring to create your symptom complex.
    A bad knee will hamper LB mechanics causing flare up of the LB, the LB can cause knee mechanical issues and the circle continues..."
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    Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Thu, November 6, 2008 - 11:36 AM
    this is NOT from the dr, this is from my little brain: the discs between our vertebre obsorb the movement so our vertebre don't grind (i'm sure you know that) but even if your muscles aren't knotting up from impropper posture (which by all means you should still be paying attention to) but the pain might also be coming from the fact that you have less cusion than normal, esp if the discs that are degenerated are in your lower back, those moves and intense on your spine as well as the muscles Shira mentioned.
    i don't have any extra advice, but it might be another way to understand why those moves in particular are problematic.
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      Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

      Thu, November 6, 2008 - 2:02 PM
      Thank you Fariha for all your valuable advice. It was the very bottom most disc that was 'ectomied'...I can't remember what the name of that one is. There is definitely little to no cushioning in there. Doc said it was a combo of protein leaking and irritating the nerve bundles and movement in the vertebre where there shouldn't be, what's left of the disc not being able to absorb pressure. I think also my muscles may be getting strained, maybe they have been disrupted and are now holding things where they shouldn't be (total speculation)? The next disc has significant wear, looks like spurring kind of, and I'm afraid I'm going to lose that one too.
      I did some of Shira's stretches last night. The only wall we have that isn't covered with stuff is one in the hallway with the front door at the top. When my husband came home, the dogs walked right over my face as if I didn't exist to get to him! Everybody got a good laugh...but....I did avoid my pain meds last night, and I think the stretching helped. I don't want to be dopey for this weekend, I have workshops with Saqra and Rachel George. I'm just praying my back doesn't totally ruin the weekend.
      Thank you again, and thank your dad for me too!
      • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

        Mon, November 10, 2008 - 11:07 AM
        You didnt seem to be in pain during the show and you danced beautifully!! If stretching is helping a lot let me know my dad is having some serious back and sciatic issues (he's had surgery once for possibly DDD). He tried some accupuncture and that seemed to help but he stopped going. He hasnt found anything else to help with the pain. Ill ask him if he's tried some stretches mentioned. :)
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          Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

          Mon, November 10, 2008 - 12:26 PM
          Thank you!

          Yes, the show wasn't too bad at all. I had loaded up on meds to prep for the Rachel workshop and I don't know if some of the things we did during the workshop helped a bit and then the meds too, a combo of both maybe, I'm not sure. My body was pulsing with adrenaline, I felt so sick backstage, I felt like crying and barfing...I even had a mental picture of myself just walking away, just saying, nope, I'm not going to do it, maybe my mind was too scared to be picking up pain was just a relief that I was able to do the workshops AND the show...all done now!!

          BUT sitting there for almost 5 hours?! My husband went home and got me MORE pain pills and my little butt pillow (we live just down the street from that hotel) so I could get thru it. I felt very less than elegant sitting there with my knees pulled up to my chin and my feet under me, but sometimes if I can kind of 'wrap around' my back, I can last longer.

          Yes, the stretches are helping even tho its temporary, I'm hoping they will have a cumulative effect. Have your dad try them, also if your mom can help, I can maybe message you and tell you some of the stretches my husband helps me with. AND, again banking on your mom, my husband rubs my butt/back/leg every night, and it does help things back there a lot.

          The physical therapy I did after my surgery really helped a ton, I did a bunch of strengthening exercises on a ball. If I'm not being lazy, I will do the exercises and over a couple weeks, it starts feeling better, the TENS unit may have helped some but I can't say with a surety.

          I have yet to feel any significant changes with using the inversion table, except for a terrific headache the first few times.

          I have never tried acupuncture, not so brave I guess.

          btw, the feather thing was cool, different but should do it next time!
  • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Fri, November 14, 2008 - 9:52 AM
    Here's another source of pain relief: Heat. The rest of this message will talk about how to use it to bring relief.

    Heated car seats are wonderful if you're driving for any distance. If your car doesn't have heated seats, buy a seat cushion that plugs into the cigarette lighter such as this one: . I didn't find the massage feature helpful, but the heat? Oh yeaaahhhhh!

    I used to have two of the heated seat cushions, one for my car and one for my office to use at my job. Both were an important part of my well-being.

    If you have a bathtub, take a hot bath. Allow an hour. Fill the tub. I have an inflatable bath pillow to cushion my back. I used to put my hair up on top of my head in a bun at the crown, then immerse myself up to my neck, allowing my feet to be up on the wall like in the hamstring stretch I described above, then close my eyes and enjoy relaxing. You get extra happy points if you do one or more of the following: burn scented candles, use scented bath salts, bathe in the dark with your eyes closed, bathe with the light on but reading a relaxing book, playing soothing background music . I've even been known to take a bath at bedtime and fall asleep while lying in the tub in the dark with my eyes closed, waking up an hour later to find that the water had become tepid, but oh, my back was happy! There is a company called Little Moon Essentials that makes wonderful bath salts - see if your local health food store sells their products. My back particularly likes the one they call "Tired Old Ass".

    If you do the stretches I described above that involve lying on your back, enhance them by having something warm under your back while doing them. You can heat a towel in the microwave and it under your back before doing that hamstring stretch or those glute stretches. Or, lie on a heated mat like this: or get an electric throw/blanket to put under you while you do those stretches.

    If you have access to a gym, try doing those stretches that involve lying on your back in a dry sauna or steam room. Mmmm, yummy!

    Speaking of gyms, use the hot tub, sauna, and steam room regularly.
  • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

    Fri, November 14, 2008 - 9:56 AM
    And another tip: Magical Muscle Oil.

    Let me repeat that, with feeling:



    Oh my goodness, this product is wonderful. Slather it on any body part where you have stiff, sore muscles, and you'll be amazed at the pain relief it brings!

    It's also made by Little Moon Essentials, the same company whose bath salts I recommended in a previous message on this thread. My health food store used to sell it. They no longer do, but because they still carry Little Moon Essentials bath salts they can (and do) special-order the Magical Muscle Oil for me.

    Magical Muscle Oil greatly improved my quality of life. Hee hee, I sound like a commercial, don't I?
    • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

      Fri, November 14, 2008 - 10:02 AM
      I won't say anything against any product I haven't tried, but I personally love Tiger Balm. And reading the jar, I'm not aware of any of these ingredients coming from animals. (I'm not saying they don't, exactly, but if they do it's news to me.)

      Camphor, Menthol, cajauput oil, cassia oil, clove oil, dementholized mint oil, paraffin petrolatum.

      Also good for opening up sinuses, if you can stand to inhale it. But when they say wash well before touching sensitive areas, they are super-serious.

      TMI: ask me about the one time my husband forget to wash up before having fun…
      • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

        Fri, November 14, 2008 - 11:27 AM
        Yeah, I thought Magical Muscle Oil was a bit too carried away with their boasts about being vegan. It may be accurate, but there are lots of plant oils that do nothing to ease sore muscles. Their ad would carry more weight with me if it talked about how the plant oils it contains are beneficial to sore muscles. For example, if I remember correctly, it contains capsaicin, which is an extract from chili peppers that the medical community is excited about as a future tool for pain relief.

        I've tried Tiger Balm and was underwhelmed, but maybe I should find my jar and try it again. I know there are a lot of people who love it.

        Magical Muscle Oil is another product that can irritate sensitive skin areas, and therefore you should wash your hands after applying it before touching said sensitive skin or eyes...

        I gave my mom some Magical Muscle Oil to help with her sciatic nerve pain. It helped, though ever since she got her ultrasound treatment she hasn't needed it for that. But in the process of applying it to her back, she discovered that it also helps the arthritis in her hands, so she has continued to use it on her hands.
        • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

          Fri, November 14, 2008 - 11:59 AM
          It sounds like it's very close to the same thing, but with slightly different ingredients. I would imagine the Magical Muscle Oil smells quite a bit better than tiger balm, which is very, very strong.

          Imagine if you took a jar of carmex and strengthened the smell 3x, then add a 2x strength Vick's VapoRub to it. That's about the smell of Tiger Balm.

          Another thing with Tiger Balm, a small amount does almost nothing. You need a full finger-full for a small muscle ache and probably 2 or 3 for a large area. (Small muscle – the pad of your thumb; large area – quad, thigh, shoulders, etc.)
          • Unsu...

            Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

            Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:06 PM
            I will order the magical muscle oil, $11 seems reasonable and get the tiger balm too, Duck, just at the store or a special health food store? And just have my husband massage it in or just wipe it on like lotion or does it matter? I got some vapo rub smelling stuff from the chiropractor that shattered my first disc to use in between visits, but I don't know what it was, and I felt good with the rubbing that I got but I don't know if the actual creme made a difference.
            I have used heat and ice alternately, like 10 and 5, in the past, for about an hour at a time, again, I don't know if it helped, but I will try some extra heat ,ditch the ice and see if it makes a difference. The only thing is, I have awful awful hot flashes already, in a bad day or night, I will have one literally every 5 minutes or so for hours...and I normally just run really really hot...but I will give it an extra try because I don't want to end up with a problem medication wise.
   have 1 bathroom, 3 kids living at home and 3 kids who practically live here, they just go to their own places to there's always someone on the pot or waiting for the pot but I will try and get some alone time in there to relax.
            My husband's brother's girlfriend (one of them) told me about a time he put some icey hot stuff on south of the border (on purpose, what an idiot) and then shared it with was like hours and hours before the sting went away. He's currently single...shudder....
            Thank you for checking back and taking the time to give me some more advice, I'm collecting it all and I'm sure I will improve...for the last few days, as long as I don't sit for longer than 30 minutes or so, it hasn't been completely intolerable, so maybe its getting better.
            • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

              Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:43 PM
              Tiger balm is *often* available at WalMart in the cashier lanes. That's where I've usually found it. very small jar – .63 oz. It's about and inch tall or so. The most recent one I got I think was in a black blister pack. It may be located with the other injury items, I'm not real sure.

              I'm sure Walgreens or CVS also carry Tiger Balm. It's possible you'd be able to find it at other chain stores, but I can't say for sure.

              And, yes. Wherever you're trying to put it, it works best with some good, vigorous rubbing. Just wiping it on isn't enough. The deeper you massage it in, the better it's going to work. But I'll be the first to admit that the smell can be bothersome enough that you stop rubbing fairly quickly. I tried putting some on my husband's back a while ago and had to stop after 2 1/2 minutes because my eyes were burning. (They are extremely sensitive.)

              And the smell will permeate clothing and bed sheets! Don't think no one will know you're using it.
              • Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

                Mon, November 17, 2008 - 9:32 AM
                You may want to look into sneaky trigger points, they have proven to be the culprits of a high percentage of pain conditions. There's a wonderful book called "The Trigger-Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief" by Clair Davies. It's inexpensive and very useful. You may also want to find a clinical massage therapist proficient in trigger point therapy. When your body doesn't provide enough ATP for your muscles to complete their contract/relax process, small portions can remain locked in a contracted state (or knot) called a trigger point, thus restricting the flow of oxygen and providing you with sypmtoms such as referred pain, tingling, and even swelling. Trigger point therapy can quickly stimulate the flow of oxygen and promote rapid pain reduction. Some doctors will even do trigger point dry needling, which is very effective, and some chiropractors and PTs will do trigger point therapy as well. The trick is finding someone proficient enough and patient enough to find the primary trigger points. In my experience massaging belly dancers, they almost always have trigger points in their glute medius and in their psoas, both referring pain into the low back. When you couple DDD with being an active belly dancer, chances of having trigger points tend to be quite high.
                I have been struggling myself with severe back pain that I thought might have been disc related, and after months of massage/chiropractic/physical therapy/and physician care, my massage mentor solved my pain with finding the sneaky trigger points, as well as releasing my compressed ankle. We would find common trigger points, release them, and then they would come right back. One day he saw me wincing through a maya and then a chest slide, he checked a few of my respiratory muscles, including one in my back that belly dancers use in chest slides (and also mayas) and found super sneaky trigger points in this sneaky little muscle that when pressed referred pain right into the spot on my vertabrae where I was experiencing the focus of my pain. We've had to work it a couple times and work on my breathing habits, but it turns out it was primarily trigger points. This has been my experience with over half of my clients. Whatever the trouble may be, I hope you experience relief soon and can dance happy and pain free.
                • Unsu...

                  Re: Degeneritive Disc Disease/Sciatica

                  Tue, November 18, 2008 - 4:15 PM
                  Thank you so much Katie, I have never heard of trigger points before. I have a really great massage therapist that I see at Christmas and for my birthday, so I will talk to her about it and see if she knows anything...and I will look into the book too, maybe I can help myself some with, that is interesting, thank you again.

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