Germania as a reliable resource?

topic posted Fri, February 6, 2009 - 10:05 PM by  Rig
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I welcome points of views from the list on the Roman historian Publius Cornelius Tacitus, the author of Germania which is often quoted by the right winged political crowd as "proof" that the ancient "Germanics" were a pure (white) race?

Rig
posted by:
Rig
offline Rig
United Kingdom
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  • Jon
    Jon
    offline 3

    Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

    Sat, February 7, 2009 - 9:00 PM
    Hail Rig,
    Tacitus wasn't much of a travelor, but he was a vicarious listener to travelors tales. As you say he is often quoted/referenced as an authority on the tribes of Germannia, but he NEVER left the boundaries of the empire. In effect it is rubbish. I could as well say that I am an authority on the Korean race of people because I was in the army for 22 years; I have met some Koreans and served with many men over the years who did duty in that country and the had many tales to tell on it ergo I am an expert on Koreans. Tacitus' knowledge of the German tribes of the day was of the same sort. Sorry, for all its antiquity, Tacitus is no expert on Germans.
    Jon
    • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

      Sun, February 8, 2009 - 12:45 AM
      Heill Jon,
      Although Tacitus cited the ancient "Germanics" from possibly travelers tales, he was also regarded as an important Roman historian who wrote (from second hand sources) the most detailed early description of the ancient *Germanics (based on his racial fantasies never having set foot in Germany) at then end of the first century CE.. In doing so, be warned, he was commenting politically on the Rome of his own time, as much as on the German themselves. Moot Point: As you pointed out, Tacitus himself had never travelled in the Germanic lands; all his information is second-hand at best.
      Ref: Alfred Gudeman (1900). "The Sources of the Germania of Tacitus". Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association 31: 93-111
      Even if they preferred to imagine that their forebears were blonds rather than redheads, the racialists of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries saw themselves in Tacitus's description of these primal Germans, just as separate, just as pure. No matter that Tacitus was describing a people who could not have bestowed some unalloyed cultural or genetic heritage to modern Germany. Like all ancient and medieval peoples, the Germans Tacitus describes were undoubtedly a mongrel solidarity that would in time promiscuously intermingle with other peoples. What mattered was that Tacitus made the Germans, like the Britons and the Romans, seem a race set neatly apart from all others. That he allied race to purity and condemned intermingling as the loss of identity probably says less about the ancient Germans (whoever they actually were) than about Tacitus's nostalgia for a thing that never existed, a Roman culture that could be as pristine as it was unchanging. As numerous scholars have pointed out, the Germania is not an unbiased ethnographic text but a work composed to reform the lax morals of the contemporary Roman empire. Little did Tacitus know that he was introducing a fantasy of race in which the Nationalist Socialists would one day espy a Blut und Boden to anchor their present to an uncontaminated past, an "eternal stream of blood" that "binds across the ages" According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. The connection between Tacitus's dream of racial purity and the myths was a common theme used once by the Nazis in their disproved blood and soil arguments and now it seems by racist elements who embrace a Volkish variant of modern *Asatru. Ref: John Moreland, "Ethnicity, Power and the English" pgs 23
      So guys the next time you see this racial bollocks posted as evidence of a pure white peroxide bleached Germanic race, stop....apply critical thing.....and discard to the refuse bin.
      Best
      Rig
      • RS
        RS
        offline 3

        Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

        Sun, February 8, 2009 - 6:52 AM
        Heill, Rig,

        Thank you for starting this discussion. It's quite amazing, given the obvious unreliability of the work as a literal historical source, the extent to which modern heathens rely on the Germania for important aspects of "pre-Christian" beliefs and practices that are attested nowhere else. In addition to the supposed racial purity of the Germanic tribes, Tacitus is cited as "proof" that runes were used in divination, that homosexuality was punished by death, and that the ancient continental Germans venerated a Vanir goddess called "Nerthus." None of this has ever been verified or even supported by modern scholarship (although of course Grimm contributed his own nationalist distortions to the latter point).

        Six little words should be drummed into the heads of every modern heathen who reads supposed accounts of ancient pre-Christian societies: source criticism, source criticism, source criticism.

        Best,
        Rorik
        • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

          Sun, February 8, 2009 - 8:50 AM
          Heill Rorik,
          You're welcome! The Nazi dream/fantasy of a Great Germania had roots in pseudo-scientific notions of a non existant and very much fabricated Teutonic empire in ancient times, and was fed by the Roman historian Tacitus' description of the Teutons in his work "Germania" from 98 A.D. In it, Tacitus praised the Teuton barbarians for their undaunted struggle against the Roman occupation force. He described them as "noble savages" as a counter-image to the "moral corruption" that was predominant in his own contemporary decadent Rome. Basically what I am trying to argue here is that this particular work Germania was politically motivated. I see very much the very same kind of thinking happening in modern British Odinism and other Asatru movements where "race" and "pure" have become prerequisite words for membership or admission into such movements.
          Best
          Rig
          • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

            Sun, February 8, 2009 - 11:31 AM
            Well said!
            I found it interesting to see the world through Tacitus' eyes but wish that we had more factual based historians to pull from that era. It seems so many want to use what could be a great force of energy (Heathenry) for their own purposes.
          • RS
            RS
            offline 3

            Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

            Sun, February 8, 2009 - 3:13 PM
            Rig said:

            >Tacitus praised the Teuton barbarians for their undaunted struggle against the Roman occupation force. He described them as "noble savages" as a counter-image to the "moral corruption" that was predominant in his own contemporary decadent Rome. Basically what I am trying to argue here is that this particular work Germania was politically motivated.>

            Indeed, John Elster, an American professor of Germanic literature, once described Tacitus as the "father of political correctness," since these same themes, or similar ones, motivate many P.C. critiques of contemporary Western culture. Like Tacitus, these modern-day critics often find all sorts of imagined virtues in indigenous peoples living on the bare edge of subsistence far from civilization.

            Best,
            R.S.
            • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

              Mon, February 9, 2009 - 8:37 AM
              Heill Rorik,
              “Tacitus was a politician writing about one of Rome’s fiercest and worst enemies,” said Krebs, “so his ethnography is given within the framework of Roman political discourse.” Though the Germania was an ethnographic study, it is unlikely, according to Krebs, that Tacitus saw the region firsthand. Instead, he probably constructed the account by drawing on Greek and Roman ethnographical writings about “people in the north” as well as the reports of travelers and warriors who had visited the region. As a result, Krebs noted, the text “was not an accurate depiction of reality.”

              Inaccuracies aside, Tacitus’ descriptions of the tribes in Germania provided fodder for future conceptions of the “ideal” German people. Tacitus criticizes parts of the culture in Germania, but he also seems to express admiration for a certain number of its qualities — and it was those qualities that the Nazis would seize upon nearly 2,000 years later to serve their dream of an Aryan race. According to Krebs, the Nazis stand at the end of a long interpretive tradition that began with 16th century humanists, who considered Tacitus the authoritative word on Germanic culture. These scholars also drew from the text protonationalist themes that would resonate with Nazi ideology.

              “If you read the German humanists’ interpretation of the text, you find almost everything that the Nazis would come to associate with Germania,” said Krebs. “The early 16th century reception is basically a mirror image of the early 20th.” Between 1500 and 1600, Prof.Christopher B. Krebs estimates, nearly 6,000 editions were reproduced for readers in German-speaking countries. And during the Nazi regime, Tacitus’ influence was pervasive, extending from party leaders to party soldiers. According to Krebs, Nazi leaders drew upon three primary themes expressed in the Germania: nationalism, an emphasis on German culture and its origins, and a discourse of racism.
              www.fas.harvard.edu/~classic...rebs.html
              “The booklet encouraged readers to think in terms of ‘we Germans’ and ‘the German fatherland,’” said Krebs. Tacitus’ words also helped nationalistic readers to perpetuate an image of the “ideal” German man. “Tacitus depicts the Germanic tribes as a moral people, living a pure and simple life,” said Krebs. “His text emphasized their freedom and fortitude.” Readers focused on these characteristics, with the result that “the Germanic people were associated with warrior qualities,” said Krebs. In addition, the text highlighted the fact that most of the Germanic tribes were indigenous to the region, with almost no history of migration.

              “He depicted the tribes as descending from an ‘earth-born god,’ and thus deeply rooted to the Germania territory,” said Krebs. “The Nazis employed that rhetoric to advance their theory that the culture of the German volk was inherently tied to the soil on which they were born.”
              For Nazi ideology, the text proved an excellent propaganda tool. In 1936, for example, the Nazi party convention in Nuremberg featured a historic “Germanic” room with walls covered in quotes by Tacitus. And the leader of the Nazi party? Though Hitler doesn’t mention the Germania specifically in any of his writings, Krebs is “certain that he must have known about it.”

              “Hitler was not extremely literate,” said Krebs, “but two books that he is known to have read made ample use of Tacitus.”
              Moreover, Krebs said, Hitler’s preferred “authority” on questions of race — adviser Hans F.K. Günther — was “intimately familiar” with the text.
              Best
              Rig

              Ref: Tacitus helped fuel Nazi propaganda with ‘Germania’
              By Emily T. Simon
              Havard University Gazette
  • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

    Wed, February 11, 2009 - 4:30 AM
    I actually find "Germania" to be somewhat reliable on some things. For example much of it appears in later accounts. The goddess drawn in the wain is seen in later accounts of Frey being drawn in a wain as well as others. The part on government can be confirmed by later views of Germanic tribal government. Even the Suebian knot is confirmed by archaeology. To throw out "Germania" simply because the Nazis tried to use it as propoganda is rubbish. That would be like throwing out the Eddas because the Nazis used the symbolism of some of the Gods. There is much to "Germania" that can and should be questioned. But there is much that can be confirmed by other sources.
    • Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

      Wed, February 11, 2009 - 8:54 AM
      Heill Swain,
      Tacitus Germania IMO and the opinions of many academic scholars who specialise in the subject was writen politically by Tacitus from second hand information. This makes it highly questionable and IMO it would be a gross error for heathens to adopt material that is dubious in many places as a template to use for the way of life or mindset that never existed back in those days. I do not buy into the notion that every "Germanic Tribe" were a *pure white race at any period in history. The current forensic evidence and available archaeological sources leads away from this racial ideology. You only need to peruse the many race based Asatru websites to note that Tacitus Germania is given as "evidence" of a fairytale all white "pure" Germanic race by the academically challenged who prefer politics to the known facts or religious views. Tacitus Germania remains today very much a political tool used by the lesser read and academically challenged to further *race as a basis for being heathen? I disagree strongly with this.

      Best
      Rig
    • RS
      RS
      offline 3

      Re: Germania as a reliable resource?

      Wed, February 11, 2009 - 9:12 AM
      Hail, Swain,

      Actually, Tacitus' tale of the processional goddess of the lake (which was probably based on the Roman procession of Cybele, of which Tacitus himself was a participant) bears virtually nothing in common with the amusing Icelandic story of Gunnar Helming kicking Freyr out of the wagon and impregnating his priestess, other than the basic motif of a deity being drawn through the countryside in a cart. This motif was common to a wide variety of religions, Indo-European as well as others, pretty much since the invention of the wheel. (Being drawn in a wagon, of course, being symbolic of nobility.) Interpreting Gunnar's thattr as somehow "confirming" Tacitus' story of Nerthus is therefore pure wishful thinking, imo.

      No one is suggesting that Germania should be thrown out simply because the Nazis used its symbolism. (It was originally employed by the Church, btw, as "evidence" that the Germans owed their rise from a debased state entirely to the influence of Christianity.) What has been suggested is that Germania is a second- and third-hand source, written largely if not primarily for political purposes, and should therefore not be taken literally as a source for pre-christian practices or beliefs.

      Best,
      Rorik

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