Building Bridges

topic posted Mon, January 12, 2009 - 5:39 PM by  Birka
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There are a lot of factions in heathenry, racially based and otherwise.

I'd like, if possible, to open up a *polite* discussion as to what the major differences people see as existing today, and what, if any, peaceful, resolutions between them can be made. By this I mean ways to garner respect, frith, and 'bridge the gap' between the groups and organizations that are forming/have formed that have radically different views and/or approaches to heathenry.

I realize this is a difficult topic, and a difficult notion, particularly as the differences between various heathens go just about as deep as they can, reaching deep into what we think and know to be right that form our very personal foundations that we base daily actions upon.

All point of view, please, but please respect this as an open forum.

In frith,

Birka
posted by:
Birka
Providence
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  • Re: Building Bridges

    Tue, January 13, 2009 - 1:49 AM
    The politics of Identity
    Organisations which describe themselves as folkish believe that people of Northern European genetic heritage are naturally suited to the ancient Germanic religion and that people of other "races" should seek inspiration within the religion of their own ancestors. Most folkish groups (either explicitly or tacitly) do not accept members who are clearly "Non-Germanic" -- in practice this can mean turning away genuine folks based on the colour of their skin or the origin of their surname despite the fact the NO ONE today can claim to be pure anything let alone white? Representatives of folkish groups will state that they are not racist; they believe that people of all races, cultures, and religions are equally worthy of respect. However, they also tend to believe that, like Yahweh, Oðin champions a "chosen people" and that his choice is genetically based. Folkish heathen groups often defend their stance on the "race issue" by comparing themselves with other indigenous tribal religions which shun "outsiders". Mattias Gardell in his disturbing book Gods of the Blood, defines these groups:
    1) Radical Racists who claim Asatrú/Odinism is an expression of race soul and exclusively Aryan. This group is usually unapologetic for their racism, even proud of it. Radical racists tend to be open about their agenda, although unlike their Nazi predecessors they tend to be interested in the notion of `white' rather than that of `Aryan'. Usually, it is claimed that these groups are Odinist, although not all use this nomenclature.
    2) Ethnic Asatrú who believe Northern European ethnicity is needed to understand Heathenism. Both the radical racist heathens and the ethnic Asatrú see spirituality as biological, with access to, and knowledge of the gods and goddesses somehow transmitted genetically and existing in the `folk soul'.
    3) Anti-racists, those people that argue if you are sincerely interested in Heathenism you are welcome to join them, and race is no bar to understanding.

    In my opinion based on research and archaeological records such as the clearly mixed burials within the Ridinas Viking Cemeteries on Gotland Island based around the 10th centrry, heathenry per se was not nor ever has been a racist culture. As a matter of record, the genesis of racist pseudo heathenism took place during the dying years of the eighteenth century, within the Sturm and Drang movement. Sturm and Drang expressed a shared German identity of folk songs, customs, literature, and an idealized medieval history. Furthermore, the notion of a shared past was used to support the belief in a spiritual union between German speakers and the urge for German unification. Around this time the concept of the so called "Aryan" developed whilst the idea was founded in the work of Fredrich Schlegel. Schlegel was not an extreme nationalist; he was an academic and diplomat who hypothesised the existence an unnamed civilisation of gifted individuals that he believed moved west from India as far as Scandinavia. Heathenry per se was not nor ever has been a racist culture. However the notion of race is the bug bear and when you consider the vast leaps of education and scholarship since the era of 19th century National Romanticism....I cannot but wonder why racial prejudices/biases remains to this day when it comes to being a "heathen"? There will always be factions as long as human beings remain intransigient to facts and prefer models of 19th Century National Romantic "aryan" fantasies. Until folks start thinking critically rather than based their beliefs because some self proclaimed Asatru "elder" says so, I am afraid your factions will remain. We need more heathen scholars and a whole lot less Asatru "Elders".
    A librarian these days is more likely to understand and appreciate the Old Norse Religion than any amount of politically inclined Asatru based group especially their racially inclined radical leaders out there.
    Rant over

    Best
    Rig
  • Re: Building Bridges

    Tue, January 13, 2009 - 4:58 AM
    There are other conflicts that do not directly relate to human racial politics, and I would also welcome viewpoints to that end as well.

    -B
    • RS
      RS
      offline 3

      Re: Building Bridges

      Wed, January 14, 2009 - 9:35 AM
      Heill, Birka,

      Rig mentioned critical thinking, and that in itself is a major line of division among heathens and heathen groups. It sometimes seems to follow the racial-political fault lines, but not always. Some people naturally embrace the use of their intellect to pursue knowledge and enlightenment, while others just as naturally find that sort of thing tedious, boring, and irrelevant. Overgeneralizing mightily, we can imagine two "pure" types. One, the nerdish intellectual who spends every available moment in some immense research library, studying obscure texts in forgotten languages for insights into "genuine" pre-Xian beliefs and practices and who considers anything less a sign of sloth and fluffiness. And two, the hard-working Joe Sixpack who is basically content with what he has learned about heathenry from a few minutes per month in an Internet chat room or some random Lewellyn paperback, and who deeply resents any know-it-all who tries to tell him what he should or shouldn't believe. When these two archetypes (either as individuals or as groups) happen to interact, sparks inevitably fly -- if not axes!

      These sorts of differences are rooted in our essence as human beings -- think of Jung's Psychological Types -- and I have no idea how one could go about bridging them.

      Best,
      Rorik

      • Re: Building Bridges

        Wed, January 14, 2009 - 3:01 PM
        Heill Rorik,
        Perhaps another part to this equation is the general reluctance by those who have come to use heathenism as an oulet for their Ego or political biases via power plays within their recon communities. What better than to call yourself a Jarl, Drighten or Elder for that matter around the campfires whist imposing all your Lutheran Christian or political biases on others who happen to be involved in your particular variant of *heathenry. Mostly for my part and experience of heathenry this side of the Atlantic pond, I find recons here in Britain a major disappointment. The general tendency is as you have noted....the intellectually lazy archetype vesus the well researched archetype. I was going to include the racial archetype but this clearly is the politics 19th century national romantic fantasies.

        Best
        Rig
      • Re: Building Bridges

        Wed, January 14, 2009 - 3:12 PM
        hmm.... I don't know. From my perspective, the issue in this is less the 'Researcher' vs. 'Mr. or Mrs. content' is actually a communication style difference. The problem, as I see it, in that respect is a problem of class issue, and an issue of 'privilege'.

        I see the problem being (in simplistic terms) conversations that go something to the effect of "If you can't site something, if you can't give me a credible source, then you obviously have no right to say anything so please sit down and shut up." It is attitudes and presentations and 'peacocking' of knowledge that shuts barriers here. It's hard to feel welcome when people refuse to explain themselves when you haven't either had the time to read something or maybe just don't understand what you've read. There is nothing more humiliating than being told that you are a horrible heathen because you don't know the obvious, and that your knowledge is useless because you have not learned the ancient tongues. I've left many a list and chat space simply because I just don't feel welcome there because I don't have the time or brainpower to spend every day devoting myself to the appropriate codex to discuss there. I'd rather read the Havamal for the 36 hundredth time and then go outside for a hike, and do it alone, than fight that fight every day.

        This being said, I think each group offers something very valuable to the community at large. So, you may not be able to recite lines of literature, but when you gather with other heathens, you may be the best person to pitch the tent, tend the fire, clean the space... communities cannot function without people who do other things. I think it is an artifact of this being a largely internet based religion at this time that generates this problem. A community based on literacy, where exciting in some ways, is a detriment in others. The kindred I sometimes get to spend time with has a very open community, and there are people from all walks and types of life in it, and we are very lucky to have that. From people who spend their days as contractors and construction workers (it is so wonderful to have people who can handle and manipulate complex physical mechanical stuff, handle tools and machinery, and are just plain fun to be around) to the ultra-academics, who are the ones who bring a complexity of language and ancient words to the space in a wonderful way.

        I guess what I'm saying is that online, yes, this schism is enormous, and even in large gatherings and public moots this can be difficult as well. But it can be bridged if people try to understand and figure out how to work as an actual community instead.

        In my opinion, though it may well be that a well read and researched person may understand the ancient religion better, in theory and 'authentic practice'; in application, you cannot have a community based in academic exclusivity and have it function as an actual community, and I, for one, would be sad to see people from various class backgrounds be excluded as well. It isn't just race that gets ousted here...

        Basically, bridging that gap is not that hard, but it takes time for people to a)want to
        • Re: Building Bridges

          Wed, January 14, 2009 - 3:17 PM
          a) want to try and build that bridge and b) take the time to learn how to communicate politely, effectively, and above all have patience with the other side of the divide.

        • RS
          RS
          offline 3

          Re: Building Bridges

          Wed, January 14, 2009 - 4:23 PM
          Heill, Birka,

          Sometimes it's a communication problem, sometimes it's a class problem, but most of the time, in my experience, it's just a fundamental difference in the way people relate to and interact with the world around them. Sure, if those who habitually engage in serious research and reflection would just learn to keep their mouths shut around those who don't, friction could be avoided. But that sort of community isn't very rewarding for the former element. Indeed, I've heard similar sentiments from those in the racialist camp: "Having people at our blots wearing Sam Browne belts, combat boots, and swastika armbands was never a problem until YOU made an issue of it!" :^}

          I have seen too many heathens bristle and become abusive toward those who make even a passing reference to scholarship, to believe this gap can be bridged by simply deciding to play nice. If you know of a group in which both "The Researcher" and "Mr./Ms. Content" are afforded equal respect and value, I'd love to join it. I just haven't come across one yet.

          Best,
          R.S.
          • Re: Building Bridges

            Wed, January 14, 2009 - 8:21 PM
            I think most people would want to join a group of equal footing... which is why I'm trying to find out what the types of divides are important to people, from race, class, education (which is often a part of classism) and basic fundamental problems. I also don't think it is a matter of people learning to keep their mouths shut. What I do think is that people should say what they have to say, but it would be great if people would take the time to think about how they speak and present themselves before doing so.

            I suppose that, for me, it is a matter of people learning to respect each other. More often than not, I seem to see people using heathenry as an excuse to behave badly, on the part of all sides. No, I'm not advocating for a P.C. sterility here. What I am seeking is to try to explore these areas, and research them, and then, with time and a heck of a lot of effort, find a way to make communities happen rather than cliques and factions.

            Thank you so much for your input, Rorik and Rig.

            -Lyn
            • RS
              RS
              offline 3

              Re: Building Bridges

              Thu, January 15, 2009 - 8:33 AM
              Heill, Birka:

              >>I suppose that, for me, it is a matter of people learning to respect each other. More often than not, I seem to see people using heathenry as an excuse to behave badly, on the part of all sides.>>

              Very true, sad to say.

              >>No, I'm not advocating for a P.C. sterility here. What I am seeking is to try to explore these areas, and research them, and then, with time and a heck of a lot of effort, find a way to make communities happen rather than cliques and factions. >>

              Fare well in your endeavor.

              Best,
              Rorik
  • Re: Building Bridges

    Thu, January 15, 2009 - 8:39 AM
    I find this interesting as I just posted to my blog on the consistency of Heathenry, that is that despite there being possibliy a hundred different interpretations, Heathenry seems amazingly consistant in how things are done, beliefs, and traditions. I think Heathenry has factions because they look to the differences which in reality are truly few instead of looking at how groups are similar. I think if folks sought out similarities there would be less division. That is perhaps the best way to bridge the gap between groups.
    • Re: Building Bridges

      Thu, January 15, 2009 - 9:23 AM
      Thank you, Swain, for your input.

      I agree that it may help a great deal for people to focus on the commonalities. I think one of the things that makes that so difficult is that where the major differences exist, or rather, the larger conflicts exist, they exist in areas that some people see as fundamental.

      I am not sure if it was on tribe or a blog or what that I read someone commenting that in some ways some of the conflicts are akin to those between protestants and catholics. When viewed in this light, it is obvious that there are major differences in practice, and application, of the religion and religious structure, though they are both Christian and came from the same place.

      If I remember right, you work or have worked with interfaith groups? If I am not mistaken, and you have time, I'd love to read what you have to say about how schisms are managed in that context. If I've mistaken you for another person, my sincerest apologies, and if anyone else reading this has worked with interfaith communities, I'd love to hear how they've managed schisms between large very different types of communities.

      thank you,
      -Birka
      • Re: Building Bridges

        Thu, January 15, 2009 - 9:26 AM
        Wow... confusing second paragraph there, sorry. Yes, I was talking about christianity for a second and didn't bother to return to heathenry. I am thinking about groups that have very rigid formal structures and practices vs. groups who may not use as many physical representations of heathenry, or even research vs. hands on approaches. Maybe it is a little too abstract to really explain here. Sorry for the strange cross comparison that is hard to explain.
      • Re: Building Bridges

        Thu, January 15, 2009 - 10:08 AM
        Heill Birka, Rorik and Swain,
        Perhaps one of the main criticisms as I see it regarding the neo-pagan faith or the modern heathen religious traditions is that they ALL seem to encourage beliefs that drive extreme divisions between human beings, whilst claiming to want to bring people together. The price of which is that that those who don't believe or agree with these modern "traditions" based loosely on perceptions of an era long since past away...... need to shed their own beliefs and assimilate another almost seemingly at whim. This notion of assimilation, apart from being downright impossible, is fraught with problems going back to parental upbringing, peer pressure and the norms of accepted behavior within society, in my case within a British society. The heathenry of yore was based on variations of linguistics, timelines as well as different tribes and tribal lands spanning a vast area. None of these things exists today, particularly “tribes”.

        Generally speaking, most English folk in the United Kingdom belong to the Church of England. Those who rebelled against this Church and sort refuge in neo-paganism in many cases seem to suffer from an identity crisis, especially those whom I call "spiritual tourists". These folks are easily identified as they have no real fixed ideas about any religious systems let alone heathenry. I say this impartially for want of a better word that many of these "spiritual tourists" have failed to achieve any rank or status within the popular world of 9 to 5 folks and are either poorly educated, insolvent, on welfare or state benefit. Therefore, to these folks the appeal of instant self status such as “Jarls, Drightens or High Priest must seem promising when compared to doldrums of a non status real life. This off course can and often does leads to factions resulting in more factions and pretty soon we are in the ball park of castigations of each particular group’s personal beliefs based on:

        1) The group leader’s personal agenda’s and self style ego status….Jarl, Gothi. HP (screaming harpy) whatever
        2) Scant to very fragmented evidence being re-interpreted into a modern but very different worldview which is shoved down your throat as factual.
        3) 19th century Romantic Nationalism (Racism Period!)
        4) Judeo-Christianity
        5) Modern English Language as opposed variations of Old Norse or Anglo Saxon

        Give me ONE true heathen to call vinr anyday to all the hypocracy and pretentious pomp and ceremony of the UK Neo Pagan Organisations posing under the guise of heathens. I dare say there are parallels to be found withing USA heathens and that of Europe as well as the British Commonwealth.

        Best
        Rig
        • Re: Building Bridges

          Thu, January 15, 2009 - 10:31 AM
          Heill Rig,

          I think that everywhere has their fair share of spiritual tourism, though I see there being little divide in the spiritual tourist department by and large based on education and/or financial security. I know a fair share of very well to do business owners (both European and American) who travel the world learning from various shamans and religions and who are highly educated and still don't seem to care about things such as respect, appropriation, and have no qualms with combining, say, pre-historic columbian practices with Kali worship. I find that it is all to easy to blame eclecticism and eclectic behavior on ignorance and poverty. It is simply a matter of living in a global community, with some people finding the value they need to get through their day in a variety of ways. For whatever reason (and I do NOT blame this one on the internet), if you look back to the romantic era you get a lot of mix and match, especially after it, during the late 1800's and early 1900's, both arts culture and spiritual 'seekers' were found, and these folks tended to be highly educated and extremely wealthy.

          I, for one, do not think that heathenry should be come a homogenized practice. Every person should have the right to practice as they, and their respective families/kindred/groups/whatever, see fit. What I do think is that there should be a way to get people communicating and working out their differences, respectfully, without name calling, without marginalizing, and within the bounds of frith, so that we can focus on similarities and work on rebuilding our religion as a living, surviving, and functioning practice. Not every church is the same, even in the same denomination, nor will every heathen group be the same. There will always be conflicts and strife and issues, but the thing is, we should be able to call each other over for dinner from respective groups and kindred without fear of being shunned.

          -Birka
          • Re: Building Bridges

            Thu, January 15, 2009 - 2:55 PM
            Heill Birka,
            "If you look back to the romantic era you get a lot of mix and match, especially after it, during the late 1800's and early 1900's, both arts culture and spiritual 'seekers' were found, and these folks tended to be highly educated and extremely wealthy."

            The Friars of St Francis of Wycombe, The Monks of Medmenham, or The Order of Knights of West Wycombe aka "The Hell Fire Club" come to mind :-) I take it that you are refering to the antics of Sir Francis Dashwood and those good old days where caves featured individual 'cells' for the 'monks' to entertain their female guests, and a 'banqueting hall'. An underground stream, known to the monks at the River Styx had to be crossed to give access to the Inner Sanctum, a circular room where so-called 'Black Masses' were said to be performed.

            "I, for one, do not think that heathenry should be come a homogenized practice. Every person should have the right to practice as they, and their respective families/kindred/groups/whatever, see fit."

            Heathenry IMO was never standardised in any respect as we understand to be likened to say other mainstream faiths. Professor Terry Gunnell Icelandic University Folkloristics puts it quite eloquently: ***As anyone with any knowledge of archaeology or Nordic and Celtic folklore knows, the idea that there was ever one basic Nordic religion, or one Nordic mythology accepted and known by all of those living across the Nordic (and even Germanic) world is patently absurd. Religious ideas and beliefs in these areas have always varied by time and place, by fashion, by cultural and social environment, and by the general demands of society.***

            "What I do think is that there should be a way to get people communicating and working out their differences, respectfully, without name calling, without marginalizing, and within the bounds of frith, so that we can focus on similarities and work on rebuilding our religion as a living, surviving, and functioning practice."

            Both neo-paganism and heathenry seems to lack any real sense of general direction, in part due to poor leadership and a general lack of academics in heathenry for as long as I can remember the USA variant of Asatru as well as UK Odinists movements have been at odds with each other since the repeal of the Witchcraft Act on the 22nd June 1951 largely instigated by the Spiritualist Movements which in a fashion allowed other practices such as Wicca and off course Asatru more openly into the public eye. The Witchcraft Act of 1735 and to make, in substitution for certain provisions of section four of the Vagrancy Act 1824, express provision for the punishment of persons who fraudulently purport to act as spiritualistic mediums or to exercise powers of telepathy, clairvoyance or other similar powers.

            Best
            Rig

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