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During much of the 19th and 20th century, it was a wide-spread belief that the Easter Rabbit and its connection with eggs had ancient pagan Germanic origins. British medieval scholar Beda Venerabilis (c.673-735) mentioned, in his book "De temporum Ratione", a Germanic spring goddess named "Eostur". In the early 19th century, German linguist and collector of old myths Jacob Grimm examined Beda's statements and came to the conclusion that the ancient Germanic name of that spring goddess was "Ostara" (hence the name "Ostern" for Easter in modern German). In the following time, it was considered self-evident that rabbit and egg, two well-known symbols of fertility, had been Ostara's holy symbols. And while the pagan goddess disappeared except for her name, rabbit and egg remained connected with springtime and with the Christian feast that, interestingly, preserved the Germanic diety's name in England and Germany to the present day.
Unfortunately, this still quite popular theory, as nice at as may be, includes a huge problem: Apart from one sentence in Beda's book, there
is no trace of the alleged goddess Eostur. She is not mentioned in any other Germanic legends or myths. Jacob Grimm's derivation of her name is mere speculation, and modern historians have found no evidence that Eostur/Ostara ever existed in any Germanic religion. And there are no sources conncecting rabbit and egg with an obscure Germanic spring goddess. Actually, the Easter Rabbit - a fabulous creature of German origin - is not explicitly mentioned as such in any source predating 1682, which is rather late for a creature that allegedly was present in popular belief for 2000 years. In that year, German professor of medicine Georg Franck von Franckenau wrote an essay "De ovis paschalibus - On Easter-Eggs" about the eggs (which are indeed ancient pagan symbols of life and fertility) connected with the Easter feast:
"In Alsace and the neigboring regions those eggs are called rabbit-eggs because of the myth that is told to make the simple-minded
and children believe that the Easter Rabbit was laying and hiding them in the grass of the gardens, so the children search them even more
eagerly, for the delectation of the smiling adults."
This is the first ever written source mentioning the Easter Rabbit. So the mythical creature can't be much older. Most likely, the tale of
the Easter Rabbit developed over the 16th and 17th century, but not much earlier since a popular belief of that kind would have left its
marks. Although the rabbit, appearing in strikingly large numbers in springtime, was certainly a logical choice, it is interesting to know
that spread of the tale of the Easter Rabbit was for quite a long time limited to Protestant regions in southern Germany. In other regions,
different animals were responsible for the Easter eggs: Hen, cock, stork, cuckoo, fox and even the Easter lamb itself were among the
other egg-bringers. The tale Easter Rabbit spread and took hold only slowly. For example, in the Harz Mountains region of Germany, the
Easter Rabbit was still unknown in the 20th century.
Conclusion: the featival of Ostara is modern!
Now I am definitely going back to my corner, you guys all have a great weekend!
Best
Rig
Unfortunately, this still quite popular theory, as nice at as may be, includes a huge problem: Apart from one sentence in Beda's book, there
is no trace of the alleged goddess Eostur. She is not mentioned in any other Germanic legends or myths. Jacob Grimm's derivation of her name is mere speculation, and modern historians have found no evidence that Eostur/Ostara ever existed in any Germanic religion. And there are no sources conncecting rabbit and egg with an obscure Germanic spring goddess. Actually, the Easter Rabbit - a fabulous creature of German origin - is not explicitly mentioned as such in any source predating 1682, which is rather late for a creature that allegedly was present in popular belief for 2000 years. In that year, German professor of medicine Georg Franck von Franckenau wrote an essay "De ovis paschalibus - On Easter-Eggs" about the eggs (which are indeed ancient pagan symbols of life and fertility) connected with the Easter feast:
"In Alsace and the neigboring regions those eggs are called rabbit-eggs because of the myth that is told to make the simple-minded
and children believe that the Easter Rabbit was laying and hiding them in the grass of the gardens, so the children search them even more
eagerly, for the delectation of the smiling adults."
This is the first ever written source mentioning the Easter Rabbit. So the mythical creature can't be much older. Most likely, the tale of
the Easter Rabbit developed over the 16th and 17th century, but not much earlier since a popular belief of that kind would have left its
marks. Although the rabbit, appearing in strikingly large numbers in springtime, was certainly a logical choice, it is interesting to know
that spread of the tale of the Easter Rabbit was for quite a long time limited to Protestant regions in southern Germany. In other regions,
different animals were responsible for the Easter eggs: Hen, cock, stork, cuckoo, fox and even the Easter lamb itself were among the
other egg-bringers. The tale Easter Rabbit spread and took hold only slowly. For example, in the Harz Mountains region of Germany, the
Easter Rabbit was still unknown in the 20th century.
Conclusion: the featival of Ostara is modern!
Now I am definitely going back to my corner, you guys all have a great weekend!
Best
Rig
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 1:06 PMWell, I would debate whether the festival is modern or not. Yes, we only have Bede's word there was a goddess by that name, but why would he lie? Further, why would the Christian festival retain the name? Sure there is no evidence of Eostre in other Germanic literature, but then there is no informaiton on many of the Gods and Goddesses outside of the Norse sources. Seaxneat for example is only mentioned twice, but no one denies his existance.
I probably agree with the rabbit and eggs being fairly modern adaptations into Heathenry, but I am not sure the imagery really hurts. -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 3:05 PMHeill Swain,
There is indeed a lack of data I concur but it does seem to me that a great deal of faith and fabrications have been built on them. Another of these created myths is the so called Great Goddess Myth that has been promoted on so many forums by pseudo scholars with a further suggestion that Eostre is some sort of Northen aspect of The Great Goddess? Pure fabrication. Cynthia Eller's The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future. Beacon Press, Boston 2000 gives a rationale as to the ultra femenist politics behind it.
***According to the myth of matriarchal prehistory, there was a time in social development before written records when women were the central controlling forces in community life. Goddesses were the primary objects of worship, and peace reigned between the sexes. In a systematic analysis of the underpinnings of this popular theory, independent scholar Eller (Living in the Lap of the Goddess), who is affiliated with Princeton University, applies both logic and common sense to what has become a highly emotional argument for some feminists and New Age partisans. Pointing out that much of the physical evidence upon which the hypothesis rests is open to various interpretations, she warns that adherents of the myth may be seeing what they want to see: that by relying on biological distinctions they are creating stereotypes as insidious as the patriarchal ones they abhor. While immersion in this myth may raise gender self-esteem, only hard work will change the reality-based biases of modern life. This well-structured, lucid argument is recommended for academic libraries and public libraries where interest in the subject is high.***
Ref: www.amazon.com/Myth-Matri.../080706792X
Best
Rig -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 3:14 PMRig-It does seem a grand time to seize the day...To get away from such things as books, and electronic social networks!
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 3:40 PMIt's not modern, just not Germanic. Eggs were supposed to be painted red in Russia and put on family graves at Easter. They're painted in several other places too, mostly red. Although I can't place where.
Rabbits used to hail the beginning of spring, like a groundhog today.
But the whole thing was forever ago a fertility ritual. Not the neo-feminist kind, the kind where you plant all the crops and a couple of bonfires and drinking. Of course there are always the barely substantiated claims about ritual sex and sacrifice, but I think that hasn't happened in the past 3,000 years.
But yeah, having the easter bunny hide eggs so that kids can learn some sort of religious moral is new. -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 3:52 PMWhat is fact?
What is fiction? -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 4:31 PMWho is that aimed at?
Or is that rhetorical?
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 11:52 PMAccording to the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
fact noun [C or U]
something which is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists,
or about which there is information:
No decision will be made till we know all the facts.
I don't know all the facts about the case.
I'm not angry that you took my car - it's just the fact that you didn't ask me first.
He knew for a fact that Natalie was lying.
It's sometimes hard to separate fact from fiction in what she says.
fiction noun U
1 [U] the type of book or story which is written about imaginary characters and events
and not based on real people and facts:
The book is a work of fiction and not intended as a historical account.
a writer of children's fiction
2 [C or U] a false report or statement which you pretend is true:
[+ that] At work she kept up the fiction that she had a university degree.
When he's telling you something, you never know what's fact and what's fiction.
And your point is?
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 12:07 AMSEE gull,
As we have been not been formally introduced......HELLO SEE gull!
I likewise could advise you to go and take a hike at Cape Cod, but that would be
downright rude of me especially as we have not been formally introduced. Instead,
may I suggest that rather than posting "pearls of wisdom" you consider the relevance
of what you are posting....least folks get the impression that you are cyber trolling!
Rig -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:02 AMRig,
I have introduced myself here before but don't post much here. Hey Cape Cod is just great! Well You have seemed rude to othersi n the past that have alternate views than those that you hold "True".
Geesh I was merely introducing the art of questions/Philosophy into the mix. The world does'nt seem to run on books and scholars being "right".
You seem to enjoy splitting hairs on oppeosing views or shall I say splitting hares.
BTW that Herunar review of yours is off the mark in my opinion.
Regards
Garrett -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:04 AM"You seem to enjoy splitting hairs on oppeosing views or shall I say splitting hares.
BTW that Herunar review of yours is off the mark in my opinion. '
"Helrunar" by Jan Fries -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 5:33 AMHeill Garrett,
Excellent some dialogue at last! Tell you what, seeing that you brought the subject of my Helrunar review regarding Jan Fries work, would you consider posting your opinions to the contrary. If you can show me the heathen relevance of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" on the introduction page 9 of Jan Fries Helrunar ..... I would be glad to take on board your points of views to support if any the authors sources based on heathenry and the heathen folks who once used runes. I would also appreciate to know if you are aware that the majority of the "bollocks" written about rune magic by neo pagan authors stem from 19th century National Romanticism via Germanic Identity seeking Occultists. It is NOT heathen based lore and that is my point.
On splitting "hares".........I think most academically educated folks call this debate. If my splitting hair methodology upsets, I suggest a re-vist to the primary or secondary sources to verify one way or the other.....come back and TELL me I am incorrect with evidence to the contrary. Archaeologists..........tend to make best guesses based on scant evidence....so these are open to debate and further development. I welcome points of views telling me I am wrong.....BECAUSE.......rather than it upsets my current database/comfort zones. If heathery is to survive as a folkway and a way of life.....IMO academic debate is essential. Otherwise what you have are folks accepting any garbge churned out by LLewellyn or as in the case of Jan Fries.......Mandrake of Oxford.
Consider also the associations in English folklore between hares and the Christian festival of Easter. For example, in 17th century South Eastern England there is evidence of a custom of hunting a hare on Good Friday, and in 18th century Coleshill (an old haunt of mine near Birmingham) there was a manorial custom in which young men tried to catch a hare on Easter Monday. There is no reason to believe that such customs go back to pre-Christian times. The Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore bluntly states: "Nowadays, many writers claim that hares were sacred to the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, but there is no shred of evidence for this.
Saying something by default creating an Urban Legend does not make it factual in the heathen historical timeline. It simply is wishful thinking.
Best
Rig
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:45 AM"regarding Jan Fries work, would you consider posting your opinions to the contrary. If you can show me the heathen relevance of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" on the introduction page 9 of Jan Fries Helrunar ..... I would be glad to take on board your points of views to support if any the authors sources based on heathenry and the heathen folks who once used runes. I would also appreciate to know if you are aware that the majority of the "bollocks" written about rune magic by neo pagan authors stem from 19th century National Romanticism via Germanic Identity seeking Occultists. It is NOT heathen based lore and that is my point. "
Rig-It was never meant to be a "Heathen" book as I remember it. to quote Mr.Fries ..."Part of this book will be directed at your ego,your identity and the nature of the reality you believe in.Often the ego with it's clear beliefs , and firm limitationsis the greatest obstacle in the evolution of the wholes self." Being a German living in Germany Fries chose to give thanks to the local land spirits. Perhaps many readers should go about exploring Fries' book with these things in mind. "Helrunar" is more about self discovery rather than juggling books.
"On splitting "hares"."
Yeah You know nitpicking data when it is a day of equal day/night nitpicking about what "truth" is in almighty print vs. celebration of "fictions".
You seem quite the reader, and at times have given advice to all who ask. While I don't label myself as a "Heathen" I enjoy the topics, and conversations although I find great beauty in various viewpoints, and welcome such variety rather than the sickness of Dogma.
I am aware of the "Bollocks"...The Runes are the reason for many that have come to Heathen or Northern Tradition paths, there's many trashy books that I look at in a store and chuckle at. "Helrunar" has many useful explorations IMO that if one will utilize then some great things will come about as a result.
Peace,
Garrett -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 11:23 AMHeill Garrett,
***"Helrunar" is more about self discovery rather than juggling books.***
IMO no single book --- even if it is well referenced throughout with endless footnotes can ever teach you historical rune magic. There are factors left out of such books such as the mindset of the indigenous peoples who once used runes or indeed the actual meanings and rune phonetics of that period.....there were 3 futhark timelines. Not to mentioned that it took a great deal of time to master such knowledge.......oral tradition is was never taught via books but by master to apprentice or teacher to student if you like. Therefore using modern English or modern German does not even come near to the understanding required to discern futhark runes. Helrunar falls very short of anything reliable and is flawed in so many areas it is of little worth to academia or indeed as a reliable heathen resource. I find it strange that folks take at will from wherever they choose to but then decide to randomly alter the entire runelore corpus beyong recognition, then re-gurgitate this material guised as some sort of modern instant rune magic book kit when in fact it is pure fiction based on modern esoterism gained via UPGs and personal meditations or whatever. To teach effectively anything...requires reliability and validity so that patterns can emerge in conformity within a given criteria.
***You seem quite the reader, and at times have given advice to all who ask. While I don't label myself as a "Heathen" I enjoy the topics, and conversations although I find great beauty in various viewpoints, and welcome such variety rather than the sickness of Dogma.***
Thank you. Well we really do need more better read heathen folk, that much I am sure of. I will discusss runes with anyone who wishes to know about them but I have never forced my beliefs or POVs especially the magical side on anybody. Dogma I agree is stagnation and heathenry has move a long way since the 9th century. Runic knowledge is changing as rune scholars, runologist discern better ways at interpreting older material or newer theories to light.
Finally one might ask what sort of books/articles should I read on the runes...well:
As a good starting point Look up: Runes, Yews, and Magic
by Ralph W. V. Elliott
Speculum, Vol. 32, No. 2 (Apr., 1957), pp. 250-261
and
Runic Amulets and Magic Objects (Hardcover)
by Mindy MacLeod (Author), Benard Mees (Author) Hardcover: 288 pages Publisher: Boydell Press (June 15, 2006) Language: English ISBN-10: 1843832054 ISBN-13: 978-1843832058
tinyurl.com/2hmbsv
My Review: Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit
To boldly go where no man has gone before
This 2006 submission from "The Boydell Press" is in my opinion one of the better scholarly works that I have come across on rune magic to date. The credentials of both authors Mindy MacLeod and Bernard Mees raised the bar of academic expectations, at least from my point of view as reflected by this work. However, it has been argued by academic critics of this work that it is not as scrutinizing as it should be and further suggest that the authors rely heavily on John McKinnell and Rudolf Simek (both are non runologists) as their basic source for their arguments.
Table of Contents
List of illustrations
Acknowledgements
Preface
Abbreviations
1 Introduction
The principal of runic alphabets
The names of the runes
2 Gods and heroes
3 Love, fertility and desire
4 Protective and enabling charms
5 Fertility Charms
6 Healing Charms and leechcraft
7 Pagan ritual items
8 Christian amulets
9 Rune-stones, death and curses
10 Runic lore and other magic
11 Conclusions
Bibliography
Index
The book has some ten chapters with 278 pages, is well referenced throughout with footnotes. The main bug bear seems to be a cursory and uncritical reading of several runic inscriptions with arbitrary linguistic analyses. For instance:
The Danish Ribe cranium pp. 25-27).where the authors state that "[t]he Ribe text is a `transitional' inscription which predates the Viking period" (p. 25) is certainly incorrect. Linguistically speaking, it seems that the Ribe cranium inscription, around 725 C.E., had undergone significant sound changes of the transitional period, and its graphemic system witnesses the parsimony of the younger, reduced fuþark with only 15/16 runes (Schulte 2006b:48)
This book however is a bold attempt at challenging the earlier criticisms which embraced farcical and fanciful notions of rune magic based loosely on manufactured ideas or traditions extending from the New Age and other 19th century Germanic Nationalism based esoteric sources. It questions the notion if the runes were indeed associated with medieval Norse literature dealing with rune magic and demonstrates a strong interdisciplinary focus on Germanic-Mediterranean epigraphy. Despite some misgivings, I enjoyed this work as a refreshing change from the many fabrications out there about runelore and indeed rune magic and would certainly reccommend it!
Best
Rig -
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Runes, Yews, and Magic
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 2:50 PMHeill Rig,
That was a fantastic article written by Elliott. His theory is placing Celtic origins to the yew magic, druids becoming aware of other customs in England which the Anglo-Saxons adapted then taking this to Friesland, is indeed interesting. Which we know Vikings coming down to England and perhaps learning this in this function or by their direct contact with their intermarriages, some Manx finds support this with Celtic/Irish names with Norse names on the same monument thus showing family connection.
My question: What are the origins for the script Ogham? Curious for the mentioning of the yew wands used for divination, and ogham the primary on those wands, though some literary sources was mentioned given argument of the wands being used in the Irish Saga. Which is interesting and shows proof that which ever script was used in a region would of been more common with such traditions like divination.
Best,
Mike
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Re: Runes, Yews, and Magic
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 5:20 PMHeill Mike,
****My question: What are the origins for the script Ogham?****
Yea gods!!! That is a damn good question and the truth is no one really knows although theories abound on the internet and other sources about Ogham....Lets get one thing straight...............Ogham are not runes.
Etymology: Irish ogham, from Middle Irish ogom, ogum
Date: 1729
: the alphabetic system of fifth and sixth century Irish in which an alphabet of 20 letters is represented by notches for vowels and lines for consonants and which is known principally from inscriptions cut on the edges of rough standing tombstones> Here follows a useful resource but I should point out that Oghams are not my current field or research.
Ogham Bibliography
Ahlqvist, Anders. 1994. "Litriú na Gaeilge", in Kim McCone et al. eds., Stair na Gaeilge: in ómós do Pádraig Ó Fiannachta. Maigh Nuad: Roinn na Sean-Ghaeilge, Colásite Phádraig. (Pp. 23-59)
Arntz, Hermann. 1935. Handbuch der Runenkunde: Sammlung kurzer Grammitiken germanischer Dialekte. Halle: Niemeyer.
Binchy, Daniel A. 1961. "The background of Early Irish literature", in Studia Hibernica 1:7-18.
Brash, Richard Rolt. 1879. The Ogam inscribed monuments of the Gaedhil in the British Islands: with a dissertation on the Ogam character, &c. Illustrated with fifty photo-lithographic plates. Ed. George M. Atkinson. London: George Bell & Sons.
Caesar, Julius. 1960. The conquest of Gaul. Translated by S.A. Handford. Hammondsworth: Penguin Books.
Calder, George, ed. 1995. Auraicept na n-Éces: the Scholars' Primer; being the texts of the Ogham tract from the Book of Ballymote and the Yellow Book of Lecan, and the text of the Trefhocul from the Book of Leinster. Black Rock: Four Courts Press. (Original edition: Edinburgh: John Grant, 1917.) ISBN 1-85182-181-3
Carney, James. 1975. "The invention of the Ogom cipher", in Ériu 26.
Diack, F.C.. 1929. "Origin of the Ogam alphabet", in Scottish Gaelic Studies 3: 86-91.
Dillon, Myles and Nora Chadwick. 1967. The Celtic realms. London: Weidenfeldt and Nicolson.
Ellis, Peter Berresford. 1995. The Druids. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. ISBN 0-8028-3798-0
Graves, Charles, Lord Bishop of Limerick. 1875. "The Ogham alphabet", in Hermathena 2:443-72.
Graves, Robert. 1961. The White Goddess. London: Faber & Faber. ISBN 0-571-06961-4
Henken, H. O'Neill. 1942. "Ballinderry crannog no. 2", in Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy 47C, no.1.
Jackson, Kenneth. 1950. "Notes on the Ogham inscriptions of southern Britain", in Chadwick memorial studies: early cultures of northwest Europe. Sir Cyril Fox and Bruce Dickins eds. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Jackson, Kenneth. 1953. Language and history in early Britain. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.
Lehmann, Ruth P. M. 1989. "Ogham: the ancient script of the Celts", in The origins of writing. Wayne M. Senner, ed. Lincoln, Nebraska: the University of Nebraska Press.
MacAlister, R. A. S. 1897. Studies in Irish epigraphy: a collection of revised readings of the ancient inscriptions of Ireland. 3 vols. London: David Nutt.
Macalister, R. A. S. 1936. The secret languages of Ireland. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Macalister, R. A. S. 1996 [1945]. Corpus inscriptionum insularum Celticarum. Vol 1. Black Rock: Four Courts Press. ISBN 1-85182-242-9
MacAlister, R. A. S. 1949. The archaeology of Ireland. London: Methuen.
MacAlister, R. A. S. 1952. "A new Ogham inscription", in Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries 72.
Mac Fhearaigh, CrÃostóir. 1996. Ogham: an Irish alphabet. Illus. Tim Stampton. Indreabhán, Co. na Gaillimhe: Cló Iar-Chonnachta. ISBN 1 874700 43 5
McManus, Damian. 1991. A guide to Ogham. (Maynooth Monograph; 4) Maynooth: An Sagart. ISBN 1 870684 17 6; ISSN 0890 8806
MacNeill, John. 1908-09. "Notes on the distribution, history, grammar and import of the Irish Ogham inscriptions", in Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy 27C: 329-70.
MacNeill, John. 1929-31. "Archaisms in the Ogham inscriptions", in Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy 39C.
Meroney, Howard. 1949. "Early Irish letter-names", in Speculum 24:19-43.
Murray, Liz and Colin. 1988. The Celtic Tree Oracle: A system of divination. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Peattie, Donald Culross. [s.d.] A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North America. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-58174-5
Pennick, Nigel. 1992. Magical Alphabets. York Beach, ME: Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-747-3
Plummer, C. 1923. "On the meaning of Ogam stones", in R.C. 40
Raftery, Joseph. 1940. "A suggested chronology of the Irish Iron Age", in Essays and studies presented to Professor Eoin MacNeill. Dublin: The Sign of the Three Candles.
Thorsson, Edred. 1992. The Book of Ogham, The Celtic Tree Oracle. St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn Publications. ISBN 0-87542-783-9
Thurneysen, Rudolf. 1961. A grammar of Old Irish. Translated from the German by D. S. Binchy and Osborn Bergin. Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies.
Wainwright, F. T., ed. 1956. The problem of the Picts. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press.
Best
Rig -
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Re: Runes, Yews, and Magic
Sat, March 22, 2008 - 5:37 PMHeill Rig,
Yea gods!!! That is a damn good question and the truth is no one really knows although theories abound on the internet and other sources about Ogham....Lets get one thing straight...............Ogham are not runes.
***Thanks for this information. I'm going to see if JSTOR may have some articles were I can come to a round about time period. Though I'm still scrating my head on this one, the Celtics were know around the contient in or about 250 bce, which then it is possible that this lore for the yew wood may be showing earlier dates, if we are to believe that the Celtics brought this themselves (250 bce) and not the traded hands (which shows ealier dating then, 400ca about)? If this is to be believed?***
Best,
Mike
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*~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 6:51 AM>>>BTW that Herunar review of yours is off the mark in my opinion. <<<
Well, last I saw, Jan Fries is no true "rune-master"! Do you actually believe those words from a chaos magician? You're better off going with his theory about "seidhr", "fate it, till you make". WTF kind of mental training that is, from one who is suppose to be good with meditations? Then he uses the runic yoga thing which is highly a new invention. OH, the good one here - he explains that masturbation is useful for magickal workings. Is this man serious? I not going to go any deeper yet, however, Completely Wicca IMHO, and a horrible book on runes.
Best,
Mike -
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 7:11 AMI think it may be useful to note here that Fries does not call himself a heathen (at least, I don't remember him calling himself one), and as far as I can tell from his published works, doesn't identify in any of the heathen circles. He mentions outright that he comes from a Thelemic standpoint- not from a heathen standpoint (thus his Love is the Law, Love under Will). I think, if you look at Helrunar as a book that explores the runes in a Thelemic context, it makes a lot of sense, particularly his sex magic standpoint (and, if you read the book cover to cover, I think you'd find that he doesn't entirely support sex magic, and says probably one of the best things I've ever heard regarding use of runes and health. I'll paraphrase here since I'm in my office and not with the book- that if you are sick, see a doctor, and probably should use runes only for health support, not primary healing. Just common sense really, but you'd be surprised at how many lack it.)
I am not going to stand here and say his book is the be all and end all of rune and runic work, however, if we look at his work as one of thelemic writing it is on par with most writings in that system. It wasn't written with a purely heathen audience in mind. Given our current society, it isn't likely that we can squirrel away heathen things for heathens only, particularly when there are many people who deal in theosophical and universal (in this case meaning all gods = one god) based spiritualities.
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 7:12 AM"if you look at Helrunar as a book that explores the runes in a Thelemic context, it makes a lot of sense" meaning, in his context, not in an overall heathen context. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 7:25 AMI believe that is what we are tring to protect. To keep the runes in the traditional Rune-lore, and study to filter the myths and saga's to understand better if any of these show traditional folk-lore or not. True, Jan Fries never said he is a heathen. But then what gives him the right to take our history and destory it in a ill written book that hardly has any evidence to support his theories for what he presented to agrue. Does this make it debatible, absolutely. Published works like that does nothing but make a mockery of what our past is truely about. His main intension was to impress the Golden-Dawn, with his bullshit theories. Which is obvious that his ambigious thoughts seemed to find a crowd that would accept it, instead of going through the University with the works, which such non-sense would be rejected before the introducation is completely read.
Best,
Mike
So as such, I stay strong on my opinion on Mr. Jan Fries. -
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:53 AM"His main intension was to impress the Golden-Dawn, with his bullshit theories"
Mike- Jan is tight with The Horus/Maat currents I don't believe he is connected with the GD. As for Bullshit theories just how much work did you do with "Helrunar"?
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 12:28 PMWelcome See Gull.
This is quite an amazing thread of discussion. I do not get in often to read a lot right now. Thanks for the source material. :)
Mike wrote:
*~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
I believe that is what we are tring to protect. To keep the runes in the traditional Rune-lore, and study to filter the myths and saga's to understand better if any of these show traditional folk-lore or not. True, Jan Fries never said he is a heathen. But then what gives him the right to take our history and destory it in a ill written book that hardly has any evidence to support his theories for what he presented to agrue. Does this make it debatible, absolutely. Published works like that does nothing but make a mockery of what our past is truely about.
Heill Mike.
Through this group and Nine Worlds, as well as some other Heathen groups, I have come to value the importance of the study of history and Lore AND noting sources. The reading and study is guiding me toward what my ancestors well may have believed. As much as any one of us might wish to 'protect' Heathenism as a way of life/ honouring the ancestors/ by study and practice, there is no way to do that except in our own minds, study, choices, practices and beliefs. There are times when I see blatant untruths spread about - and then it is upon my honour to make the person responsible aware. Beyond that, it is up to each individual on their path, called by whatever draws them, to find the best resources. We are very fortunate here. We cannot stop what other people think or publish - we can only be the best example in our own beings. Truth in study is up to the student to make sure that the source material is in fact truth. There are many 'Pied Pipiers' out there, presenting their wares for ego, status and money.
Frith,
Ani -
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 1:03 PMHeill Ani,
This all runs, IMHO, to semantics. However, this is a Heathen group, and by my understanding, heathens will search historical research to come a little closer to the truth. I don't have a Wolwa/Volva to train me. I had to learn another tradition for my friend told me that the magic I know would not work here for the language is not known to the spirits here. Good advice, and for me being a big man on respect for the land, I took the advice. What happened after that, hello new world. Magic is different in various cultures, and with what I have learned, yes, I can carry for my wisdom, but that is his believe and just knowledge he shared...for example: he is taking me out in a few weeks to learn how to catch snakes, which it will be cooperheads and maybe a rattlesnake, but he is more convienced on the cooperhead. I can't say why he is teaching me this, but it is very magical in his folklore. But what is going to make it magical, is that he said everything he taught me will become one after this day...man am I excited to learn this lesson. Am I still heathen yes, did I destory his believe, NO, did he question mine, NO. Am I going to write a book mixing his faith with heathenry and say this is the magic, OH HEL NO. There is nothing wrong with becoming wiser or gaining information, however, as such, if it is done, then to be really honest is to state it as a opinion. It is a huge world with information just over flowing, but then we have to be just with information and imagination. Which Fries work is just imagination. And just for giggles: anyone who says this magic work, I want to see it with my own eyes; then I'm sure I will get, well you have a negative energy and it won't work or some non-sense like that. It is easy to help a author, but when you actually meet these people and challenge them to their face, oh Ani, I never seen so many scared and making so many excuses. Which anyone I will met and with the right person, I will be more than happy to show this magic I learned. Cause, it is more about nature and animals than anything else to be honest.
Thanks Ani for your kind thoughts!
Mike
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:42 AMHeill Birka,
Thank you for clarifying the purpose of Helrunar. What the publishers should have pointed out IMO is that this book is not a rune magic book at all but rather a mix and match of 19th century occult order *magickal systems based on the author's own personal experiments within his field and that the futhark runes were simply incidental. He might as well have used Vinca or some other script which for the purpose of magickal experimentation would have just as well been suitable.
I entirely disagree with him on this and many other spurious non referenced statements which he made in that book:
"Some of those rune signs have seen magickal use for some 30,000 years or so, which may give you an idea why I consider rune magick no so much a Germanic or Nordic tradition but as a conglomuration or religious signs containing religious beliefs that began in the Neandathal period"
In Scandinavia Futhark evolved around the 9th century. Instead of 24 letters, the Scandinavian "Younger" Futhark had 16 letters. In England, Anglo-Saxon Futhorc started to be replaced by the Latin alphabet by the 9th century, and did not survive much more past the Norman Conquest. Futhark continued to be used in Scandinavia for centuries longer, but by 1600 CE, it had become nothing more than curiosities among scholars and antiquarians.
Best
Rig
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:49 AMWell, last I saw, Jan Fries is no true "rune-master"! Do you actually believe those words from a chaos magician? You're better off going with his theory about "seidhr", "fate it, till you make". WTF kind of mental training that is, from one who is suppose to be good with meditations? Then he uses the runic yoga thing which is highly a new invention. OH, the good one here - he explains that masturbation is useful for magickal workings. Is this man serious? I not going to go any deeper yet, however, Completely Wicca IMHO, and a horrible book on runes. "
Mike-I don't believe that Fries calls himself either a Rune Master or Chaote. Actually masterbation seems to be quite useful in operations. That whole it's Wiccan comment is getting quite olde. Can't You come with something more imaginative?
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 9:08 AMI don't think you want to challenge this bunch, but for basics:
A) find out the origins of the futhark
B) learn what languages are used for each time period and region within that time period
C) learn the phoneics of those letters
D) go back to A and see if their is a better theory and how it stands
E) go to B and actually start breaking down the different inscriptions in the times periods and who may had a better interpretation or theory to support.
F) then start all over again and get back to me
G) what traditions or beliefs was the runes used for
H) was it more pragmatic than assumed in the "New-Age" Books
I) would it have been more common to elite higher class, soliders, traders, or common people
J) why was the rune considered magical
K) go back to G and start all over again then let me know.
Once you completed this, let us know.
Best,
Mike
p.s. This is a start. Please spare the opinions unless you can back it up. But I'm trying to be nice at the moment and spare any humanility. -
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 9:18 AMMike-Been there and Have done that!
"p.s. This is a start. Please spare the opinions unless you can back it up. But I'm trying to be nice at the moment and spare any humanility. "
I don't call myself a Heathen. I don't mean to challenge rather look at the various reality channels instead of one.
I can understand why the ruffled feathers with hard core "Heathens" and "Helrunar" though. -
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 9:27 AMWell with this all said: can I have your best guess to the origins of the futhark; "Please reference your information." Only then I will give you my opinion. But be sparing with your words...it is not kind to be on ones hearth and make debates that can't be completed. This is not a challenge, but a debate on the direct knowledge you challenged.
Best,
Mike
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:51 PMMY BAD....! I sent the reply to quick on the debate before reading this one. Just to be honest, I rather share an honest opinion. It is seen that it doesn't take much to see a different light. Being a Heathen is not set in stone as Rig mentioned. However, it will be wise how the other information is presented? I gave you my honest opinion, which Rig has foward a good start for magic. However, it goes way deeper than what has been mentioned. I agree on Rig's comments in the highlights of being able to read all the books you have, however, the mainstream of the problem is that "oral tradition" to this day has been limited to some and is of our lack of information that helps us look deeper into the real history and secret. It takes no expert to realize this, IMHO. Just a few basic books, with a lot of open questions. Rig has been a honest friend, and I promise no lies, other than academic information for heavy consideration.
Best,
Mike
See you around!
Mike
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 7:47 AMsee gull, you need to put the shovel down
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Re: *~Jan Fries, looks like one sick man~*
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:54 AMHallo Seegull .. thanks for joining the list!
You wrote [[I don't call myself a Heathen.]] I am glad you pointed this out; likewise, please keep in mind that this tribe is "Heathen Hearth", so the topics will be central to that idea.
You also added [[I don't mean to challenge rather look at the various reality channels instead of one.]]
** There are many [reality channels] WITHIN Heathenry, which is why many Heathens do not feel it necessary to include those that are 'outside' of Heathenry.
Many folk on this list are long-time Heathens and scholars of Heathenry, and that will not change. It is the responsibility of those who join a list to recognize and appreciate the existing mindset/paradigm that already exists there.
Live Deliberately!
Yngona Desmond
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 3:29 AMOh do not get me started on the Great Goddess. I cannot see how so much material can be produced with so little evidence. -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 9:16 AMOh, yes, the Great Goddess. I think that has to come under the heading of "Academic Fantasy."
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 6:01 AMThis was a good book (Cynthia Eller's The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future), but I thought it could have been a little shorter...by the end she had really beat her thesis to death. I especially agree " that adherents of the myth may be seeing what they want to see: that by relying on biological distinctions they are creating stereotypes as insidious as the patriarchal ones they abhor."
Now the Great Goddess myth seems old hat and silly, but I have to admit that back in the early eighties when I was taking my first mental steps *toward* something (rather than just *away from* the patriarchy/christianity) the idea really opened up a whole new world of possibilities for me. It was a catalyst for change.
Trish -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 8:14 AMHeill Trisha,
The archaeologist most closely linked with the "Goddess Movement" is indisputably Marija Gimbutas, whose prodigious publication record includes three major books on the Goddesses of Neolithic Europe and the Mediterranean: The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe (1974), tellingly renamed and reissued as The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe (1982); The Language of the Goddess (1989); and The Civilization of the Goddess (1991). Anyone familiar with these books knows that they have never rested comfortably on the shelves of academia. Although Gimbutas's beliefs in an early matrilineal/focal society throughout what she terms "Old Europe" (Pre-Indo-European culture) have been embraced by many grassroots feminists as the authoritative scholarly voice on the topic, her reception among academic archaeologists has been less than favorable, running the gamut from apathy and annoyance to disdain and bitter controversy.
Indeed Marija Gimbutas "Old Europe" certainly was controversial and had her very staunch adherants.
From an Interview with Marija Gimbutas:
***David: What was it that originally inspired your interest in the archaeological and mythological dimensions of the Goddess orientated religions of Old Europe?
Marija: It has to do with the whole of my life, I think. I was always a black sheep. I did what I saw with my own eyes - to this day, in fact. I was very independent. My mother was also very independent. She was one of the first students of medicine in Switzerland and Germany when there were no other girls studying.***
See: www.levity.com/mavericks/gimbut.htm
"The Goddess Remembered" - A Case of "False Memory Syndrome"
Claim: "We know that women developed agriculture, and the domestication of animals."
Reply: We "know" no such thing. There is absolutely no evidence on which one could possibly base such a sweeping claim. As Milisauskas notes above, Neolithic burial data clearly associates domesticated animals with males. Claims of this type are based on nothing more substantial than theories about supposed "stages of history" developed and made popular during the nineteenth century by Johann Jakob Bachofen, Friedrich Engels, and Lewis H. Morgan, which were very influential in the early twentieth century. The idea of a vanished "matriarchal" or "woman-centered" stage of history became part of Marxist theory, and was widely taught. However, modern anthropology absolutely rejects the idea that civilization or history progresses in "stages" because the immense data now available from societies all around the world fails to support it.
See: www.debunker.com/texts/goddess_rem.html
Best
Rig
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:42 AMRig pointed out [[There is indeed a lack of data I concur but it does seem to me that a great deal of faith and fabrications have been built on them.]]
** I agree. However, I also feel that what we are witnessing is the natural growth of Heathenry. Our is, afterall, a living folkway. It is not stuck, stagnant in the past, but continues to thrive and manifest in accord to our lives today. We are the ancestos of tomr .. what we do today may well live on.
Live Nobley!
Yngona Desmond
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Thu, March 20, 2008 - 10:46 PMWell, to echo Swain's thoughts, I don't think Bede would lie about there being a goddess named Eostre. He seemed to dislike the idea of paganism anyway, so I don't think he'd go about inventing goddesses. That having been said, there isn't much we can know about Eostre, if there is indeed such a goddess (which I think there is). The name would seem to be cognate to Greek Eos and Latin Aurora, indicating she was probably a dawn goddess. Given that it would make sense that she would be worshipped in the spring. As to the festival, I don't think we can say that eggs or rabbits were associated with her. Easter eggs may have been imported from the Slavs. As to the Easter hare, well, I think the earliest reference to such was something like the 14th or 15th century. While rabbits may have been associated with Eostre, it seems to me just as likely that it was just something that developed later, after the Conversion--not unlike Father Christmas and Santa Claus. -
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 6:59 AMIMO I do not see Ostara as a goddess, but as a particular matron mother of a particular tribe. Could have been the very one in which Bede wrote about. Ostara to me now is more of a period of time, like the very season of Spring herself, celebrating those matron mothers of your own tribe, rabbit or not.
Sisu,
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Re: Easter Bunnies and Ostara (separating facts from fiction)
Sun, March 23, 2008 - 10:18 AMI am posting this rather late, as I was busy and didn't see that part.
Mike,
The only source I can tell you for the origin of Ogham is a Renfaire magazine, issue 51. It goes over what the basic letters mean, which apparently they all have several meanings, and the as of yet arguments for where the language came from.
It's not the best of sources I know, but it's a bit of a start.
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