Vicktor Rydberg

topic posted Sun, July 8, 2007 - 12:04 AM by  Rig
Heill the list,

Evertyhing you wanted to know about Vicktor Rydberg but were afraid to ask:

www.rydberg.galinngrund.org/

This site gives scholarly and well researched argument on the writer Vicktor Ryberg and traces the Cult status of the groups involved with promoting his Nationalist philosophies within comtemporary times as well as inside modern Asatru movements who view him as a champion of the Aryan cause.

Rig
posted by:
Rig
offline Rig
United Kingdom
  • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

    Tue, May 6, 2008 - 2:11 PM
    Some more interesting factual tidbits abour Viktor Rydberg:

    See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikt...te_note-20

    It is said that Rydberg is the "last —and poetically most gifted —of the mythological school founded by Jacob Grimm and represented by such men as Adalbert Kuhn" which is "strongly synthetic" in its understanding of myth.[16] Of this work, noted Dutch scholar Jan de Vries, said: “At a time, when one was firmly convinced that the Old Norse myths were a late product, Rydberg’s voice resounds. At that time, he swam against the stream, but he clearly expressed that which has become an ever stronger certainty today: a large part of the myths of the Germanic tradition —and that is to say basically the Old Norse tradition—must be set back in a time when the undivided Proto-Indo-European people themselves created the vessel of their worldview in myths.”[17] Today, Rydberg's theory of a vast world-mill which rotates the heavens, as an intregal part of Old Norse mythic cosmology, is perhaps his most widely accepted theory.[18] The book Hamlet's Mill by Georgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, (1969), which expands on this theory, received unusually negative reviews from scholars. It was described by H. R. Ellis Davidson as “amateurish in the worst sense, jumping to wild conclusions without any knowledge of the historical value of the sources or of previous work done. On the Scandinavian side there is heavy dependence on the fantasies of Rydberg, writing in the last century, and apparent ignorance of progress made since his time.”[19] Writing in the New York Review of Books, Edmund Leach called Hamlet’s Mill “pure fantasy . . . no more than an intellectual game.”[20]

    During the 1880s, Rydberg also published two studies of runic inscriptions. His acceptance speech into the Swedish Academy, titled Om Hjeltesagan å Rökstenen (Concerning the Heroic-Saga on the Rökstone) was published in English translation, with an introduction by Swedish Scholar Ola Östin, in its entirety in a publication of the Asatru Folk Assembly, The Runestone Journal 1, 2007.

    Scholars on Rydberg's Mythology
    Rydberg's studies in Norse mythology were described as "fantasies" by H. R. Ellis Davidson.[21]
    Britt-Mari Näsström notes that Rydberg's mythological investigations drew on "subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts."[22]
    Anatoly Lieberman has pointed out that “[m]erging Eddic characters and looking for hypostases is an unprofitable occupation. It allows any god (giant, dwarf) to become anybody else, as happened under Rydberg’s pen.”[23]
    Rydberg, in the opinion of Judith Moffet, was "a historian who cared more for atmospheres and half-truths than for historical facts."[24]
    According to Jenny Blain, "[d]iscussions of Rydberg's highly systematized versions of the mythology periodically surface on Ásatrú mailing lists and other public fora for debate. They have a few adherents within the community; however, on the whole the community rejects them, as do academics today, as being attempts to create an artificial order based on flawed methodological principles and nineteenth century definitions of deity."[25]

    Rig
    • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

      Tue, May 6, 2008 - 3:00 PM
      Heill Rig,

      I only know of a few people that actually follow his work today. And to be honest, I see no flow with Rydberg's work. The only book I could recommend from him is his children's book that he wrote. Sure he still filled in the gaps in that volume, however, it is a children's book ;-).

      I have been at a close study to the Mythology this year for some reason. I guess one can only learn but so much with the runes before going on to other traits of the study. And what I have gathered, there has only been one great comparative scholar to the subject, and one that Lindow (1985) has put some great attention/information to that has came from a solid structure of scholarship and been more widely accepted and has been mentioned that set some interesting theories to the study too this day - which it only could be the "Great" Dumezil. Reading how Dumezil approach compared to Rydberg really leaves one answer, that Rydberg should have got a real degree in the subject. Hel, I even have a hard time believing some of Grimm's information to the history. But I guess is worth a peek to learn?

      Best,
      Mike
      • RS
        RS
        offline 3

        Re: Vicktor Rydberg

        Tue, May 6, 2008 - 4:54 PM
        Heill, Mike,

        To some extent, all scholarship is a product of its time. Grimm accomplished some noteworthy feats, but every word he wrote was directed (by his own admission) to the glorification of the German nation. His great work on Germanic Mythology was directed to this end, no less than his philological and other studies. The lengths to which he would go in the service of German nationalism is illustrated by the outright fraud he perpetrated in his collection of supposedly German fairy tales. His "Teutonic Mythology" must be read judiciously, with this in mind.

        Rydberg was not even in the same class as Grimm, being essentially a poet with only one year of university education (in law). His version of "Teutonic Mythology" is virtually entirely imaginary, based on the author's firm but baseless belief in the existence of an "ancient Aryan race" with an original religion from which all existing Indo-European mythologies are merely fragments.

        Dumezil's methods were of course infinitely more advanced and refined than either Grimm's or Rydberg's. Even in his case, however, the disclosures over the past 10-15 years of Dumezil's apparent relationship to fascism has called into question his "scientific objectivity."

        Of these three, it seems ironic that by far the least scholarly of them (Rydberg) is the only one with an active cult today, pressing his nonsense on uninformed, beginning heathens from dozens of websites, some of which (like Northvegr) should know better.

        Best,
        Rorik
      • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

        Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:57 PM
        Heill Mike,
        ***Indo European Studies--linguistic,mythic. and (pseudo-)physiologic provided the basis for the racial theories of Gobineau, Renan, Wagner, and subsequent Nazi hacks. Notwithstanding these burdens inherited from the past, some have worked to reconstitute the field in the twentieth century, and at times they have met with significant sucess. Still, a taint of scandal remains. Not only are articles on Indo-European myth a mainstay of tawdry racists newsletters and the slick publications of the French "Nouvelle droite" but even the chief scholarly journals of Indo-European studies have been connected with overtly reactionary and racist causes. To legitimate themselves, the less savory aficionados of things Indo-European regularly invove the name and accomplishments of Georges Dumezil (1898-1986), professor of Indo-European civilisations at the Sorbonne.***

        Rewriting the German War God: Georges Dumézil, Politics and Scholarship in the Late 1930s by Bruce Lincoln
        History of Religions, Vol. 37, No. 3 (Feb., 1998), pp. 187-208 (article consists of 22 pages)
        Published by: The University of Chicago Press

        We see much of the same happening today in Asatru today with watered down variations of racism guised under different headings to excuse themselves of inherant bigotry whilst seeking par excellance of their "germanic" Identity using the redundant bloodline argument as the mainstay of their claim to being who they think they are. Historically speaking *purebloods is a completey made up fantasy that can been easily discredit through modern genetic fingerprinting investigations.

        Best
        Rig
        • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

          Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:21 AM
          Heill Rorik, and Rig,

          Thanks for the resourceful insight. So is this saying that Dumezil had a hidden agenda to his theories for some reasons of nationalism? What I read is rather dated, from a good article written in 1985 by Lindow, "Mythology and Mythography." I see I still have a little more homework to do on Dumezil.

          Best,
          Mike
  • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

    Wed, May 7, 2008 - 3:11 PM
    Thanks all for your posts.
    I'd like to comment on Dumezil. I hold a degree in Anthropology- a social science that wants and is by degree- a hard science. Scholars in anthropology had to invent means to study- and discuss intelligently- human culture. They were and are imperfect. Dumezil was a primary investigator who lent scientific method to his studies of culture. His conclusions are theories and so we should vigorously test them. Critical thinking here is most welcome: to the whole field. Tri-partite social organization is only true on the larger scales and then only if one has intellectual patience i.e. over look the counter examples and see where one gets...

    Frith
    Bill
    • RS
      RS
      offline 3

      Re: Vicktor Rydberg

      Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:00 PM
      >Tri-partite social organization is only true on the larger scales and then only if one has intellectual patience i.e. over look the counter examples and see where one gets.>

      Well said, Bill.

      The problem with the tripartite theory is that it *does* seem to be a helpful way of looking at Indo-European culture and mythography, at least some of the time ... yet it also lends itself to all manner of abuse. I happen to believe our understanding of the Vanir, for example, has been seriously retarded by automatically shoving them into the Dumezilian "function" of fertility gods. As Lotte Motz demontrated in "The King, the Champion, and the Sorcerer," the Aesir actually have a closer connection to fertility, in the old mythology. And of course, once you add Dumezil's troubling connections to fascism, it can obviously be argued that it serves unsavory political interests to imagine that the "natural order" of society is to have a martial leadership class in charge of things.

      Best,
      Rorik
      • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

        Thu, May 8, 2008 - 5:57 AM
        Heill Rorik and Bill,
        I concur with your statements but premise to add that IMO, part of the problem with understanding and or interpretating the material corpus found with both primary and secondary sources is a general reluctance by many to "test the material". Instead we have groups of neophytes accepting blindly the party politics ranted on by self appointed ignoramuses and the uneducated who prop up varying degrees of racial fantacist theories suggesting once upon a time there were *elite bands of Germanic white folks roaming the steppes of Europe and Asia etc.....to incuded off course 19th century pseudo-scholarship mistakenly assumed to be Aryan Lore? Other issues include a lack of readership within the available corpus of Eddic lore, linguistic limitations and the identity seeking ethos/sub-cultures so prevalent in society today.

        Best
        Rig
        • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

          Fri, May 9, 2008 - 7:06 AM
          Guys! It was remis of me not to mention also:

          In Rydberg’s poem “Prometheus och Ahasverus” (Rydbery 1899), the Titan Prometheus is presented as an unconquerable freedom fighter who, chained in the Caucasus, is tortured by a vulture. This is the punishment for having stolen the god’s fire and given to the enslaved people, which made them aware of their divine origin. If Prometheus begs the god of Olympus, Zeus (“god of time”, who for the Platonist Rydberg personifies egotism, hedonism and materialism), for forgiveness for his transgression, he will turn into the Antichrist. Ahasverus, son of a rabbi and shoemaker, tries to convince him to do this, since it breaks his own curse.

          Rydberg presents Ahasverus as a cynic who has made himself subject to worldly power and who hates Jesus, the god of eternity, since the latter fights to create a better world for the oppressed. At the end of the poem, Jesus appears to Prometheus and says that his suffering will cease on the day when he learns to love fully and completely. However Prometheus’s pathos of justice gives rise to a wrath that makes this liberation impossible. In Undersökningar i germanisk mythology, it had quite a great impact. Rydberg criticizes the nature of mythologists (“weather mythologists”) Unlike them, he believes that Indo-European Mythology can be traced back to a great epic-----“the mythological epopee of the ancient Aryan----which was about the creation and destruction of the world and of religion and where the gods were personalities “in whose existence one believed”
          (Rydberg 1886-89, 2:174f.,431)

          Bibliography: Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science
          By Stefan Arvidsson

          See also Rydberg and Race: www.rydberg.galinngrund.org/Racism.htm

          Rig
        • RS
          RS
          offline 3

          Re: Vicktor Rydberg

          Sun, May 11, 2008 - 10:20 AM
          Heill Rig,

          The following passage speaks to a couple of points raised in this thread. It's from an excellent recent book on Northern mythology and myth theory that I picked up at the Medieval Congress yesterday:

          “The modern effort to comprehend Northern European myth may be said to begin with Jacob Grimm, who launched a quixotic campaign to reconstruct the lost mythos of his rediscovered ancestors. ... But his efforts were foredoomed by the dream of recovering an Ur-Germania, a unified nation of noble tribes living in prehistoric Northern Europe, speaking the same language, practicing the same religion, and subscribing to the same body of myth that enshrined sky fathers and earth mothers alongside woodwives, swan maidens, goose girls, and other mysterious embodiments of numinous power. While such fantastic creatures may reflect sporadic beliefs among scattered populations ... [n]either Ur-Germania nor any universally acknowledged Germanic mythos ever existed in preliterary Northern Europe, as far as we can judge today. To borrow Shippey’s elegant metaphor, there never was a ‘cathedral,’ though after Grimm many articulate scholars arranged and rearranged all the ‘stony rubbish’ to build some beautiful castles in the air.

          "... By no means do we seek Grimm’s Ur-Germania, Tir na Nóg, an Elysium, a Gimlé, a Neorxnawang that never was. But nowadays others do – some in fantastic quasi-cults with no basis in historical fact. As Geoffrey Russom notes, ‘anyone who inputs “Odin” to an Internet search engine will learn that pernicious reconstructions of Germanic culture are still widely disseminated.’ Russom speaks for us all when he asserts our academic responsibility to ‘provide a better reconstruction.’”

          –Stephen O. Glosecki, “Introduction -- Myth Theory: Rite Refracted,” in Myth in Early Northwest Europe (S. Glosecki, ed., 2007), pp. xvii-xviii.

          I was especially heartened by the closing comments. I have often felt like a lone voice calling for real scholars to take more notice of what's being done to the popular reception of Norse mythology by ignorant and malicious e-cults like Rydberg's. Until now, the general opinion in the academy has been that these people and their "works" are beneath notice, and should simply be ignored. That always struck me as a dangerously misguided attitude, and I'm glad to see Glosecki's book join a small but growing corpus of modern scholarship that seeks to "take back" Northern mythology from the modern-day barbarians.

          Best,
          Rorik
          • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

            Sun, May 11, 2008 - 12:30 PM
            Heill Rorik,

            "... By no means do we seek Grimm’s Ur-Germania, Tir na Nóg, an Elysium, a Gimlé, a Neorxnawang that never was. But nowadays others do – some in fantastic quasi-cults with no basis in historical fact. As Geoffrey Russom notes, ‘anyone who inputs “Odin” to an Internet search engine will learn that pernicious reconstructions of Germanic culture are still widely disseminated.’ Russom speaks for us all when he asserts our academic responsibility to ‘provide a better reconstruction.’”

            Here, here! Scholarship usually requires a recognised academic standard that can be "tested" both for reliability and validity. Pseudo- scholarship only requires a group of poorly read believers of fantasia, racial supremacy or "string-theory". Barbarians tend to lower the academic bar to baser ideologies such as fear and hatred of other races whilst clinging to far fetched imagined epocs that are removed from fact or indeed ever existed during the historical timeline.

            Best
            Rig
            • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

              Sun, May 11, 2008 - 12:37 PM
              Heill Rig, and Rorik,

              Thanks a lot for sharing all this! I'm learning a lot still to this area, however, I just never imagined how the damaged started over 100 years ago, and people wish to stick to old information when scholarship is changing every year. Hel, the information I read on Dumezil is only 25 years old which it was reprinted for academic teaching guide in 2005, and you guys already proved how it is dated with better theories.

              This will show the respect that it takes years....I mean years of study to get up to par, then keeping up is the hard part ;-).

              Best,
              Mike
            • Re: Vicktor Rydberg

              Mon, May 12, 2008 - 8:54 AM
              Let me second Rig's sentiments, and add that I emphatically agree with "Until now, the general opinion in the academy has been that these people and their "works" are beneath notice, and should simply be ignored. That always struck me as a dangerously misguided attitude..."
              Scholars in every discipline are also part of society *beyond* the academy, and thus have responsibilities in that sphere as well. In this case, I think a 'better reconstruction' would serve the discipline and the rest of the world!

              Trish

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