well there are 2 things here.
One is that I have a friend who is 100lbs overweight, he refers to himself as chubby. And I told him I thought his weight was a health problem. He got mad at me and won't talk to me. I don't think I was wrong necesarily to tell him what I thought. But perhaps I put it the wrong way. Should I have said anything? I've been friends with him for years. He is clearly Obese.
I have done a lot of work with self-healing and I attract people to me who are in pain and who are at different stages of healing or denial. Is there a way to acknowledge it to them or do I need to wait until they ask me ? Sometimes it seems their very presence in my life is asking for something but they and I don't know how to approach it. My friend who is very similar to me in that we have abuse victim parents and addictive/enabling type issues for ourselves, we've discussed these things and I brought up that we all have childhood wounds especailly if a parent was physically abused, and she ( like many others) don't even like the concept of being wounded. So I didn't bring it up again.
I have an inabilty to ignore the obvious with people close to me. Sometimes I want to say: you are obvisously hurting badly about something, don't you want to know why' . But I don't know if I should push it. How do you deal with this sensitivity to other people's pain when they are not dealing with it directly?
One is that I have a friend who is 100lbs overweight, he refers to himself as chubby. And I told him I thought his weight was a health problem. He got mad at me and won't talk to me. I don't think I was wrong necesarily to tell him what I thought. But perhaps I put it the wrong way. Should I have said anything? I've been friends with him for years. He is clearly Obese.
I have done a lot of work with self-healing and I attract people to me who are in pain and who are at different stages of healing or denial. Is there a way to acknowledge it to them or do I need to wait until they ask me ? Sometimes it seems their very presence in my life is asking for something but they and I don't know how to approach it. My friend who is very similar to me in that we have abuse victim parents and addictive/enabling type issues for ourselves, we've discussed these things and I brought up that we all have childhood wounds especailly if a parent was physically abused, and she ( like many others) don't even like the concept of being wounded. So I didn't bring it up again.
I have an inabilty to ignore the obvious with people close to me. Sometimes I want to say: you are obvisously hurting badly about something, don't you want to know why' . But I don't know if I should push it. How do you deal with this sensitivity to other people's pain when they are not dealing with it directly?
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 12:18 AMHi Aschleigh: It's a tricky business, pointing out what one sees as obvious negative issues / attributes, etc. in others. I've found that it's best done as a question, rather than a blunt statement. If you say to someone -- even couched in soft, loving words -- that you think their weight is a problem, they will probably get their back up. However, if you simply ask them the question: "Do you think your weight is a problem?" this reveals your concern, opens the topic, maybe gets them thinking and probably doesn't get their back up. They may just start talking about the problem (and just leave tham to talking, without adding your "two cents") and they may work their way through their defensiveness and issues and get to some kind of realizarion. And, if not, it's really not anything you should be attached to solving for them. How's that sound?
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 12:49 PMI try to respect their viewpoint rather than imposing mine on them. Does he find his weight limiting? Is he having weight related health problems? Even if he is, it may simply be something he is not ready to deal with at this point in time. Also, we live in a fat-phobic society which can make it very difficult to deal with genuine weight issues. He probably needs your love and acceptance more than he needs yet another reminder that his weight is socially unacceptable. I doubt there are many people in the US who are not painfully conscious of their weight (no matter what it is), his attempt to brush off the issue is likely a defense mechanism against the weight of social disapproval.
If you want to help people who are wounded but have difficulty acknowledging their pain, I would suggest you work on being as trustworthy as you can be and create a sense of safety for them. In other words, love them even if they never change, never grow, but embrace them exactly as they are in this moment. When they feel safe with you, trust you and are ready to deal with whatever pain may be in their life, you will be in a wonderful position to support their growth if they want that support.
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, September 26, 2007 - 12:15 PMFirst, apologize to your friend. I know you mean well, but he needs to feel accepted as he is. It's not up to you to point out that he is hurting, but for him to come to you for love and support when and if he is ever ready for it. I would bet that he spends plenty of time filled with self-loathing, and doesn't need your particular mirror. And I don't mean this in any way as critical of you. I am just now figuring out how to let go and have patience in these instances. Until about a year or two ago, I used to flail my arms like Will Robinson's robot. "Danger, danger!" And feel anxiety on behalf of the other person, because, of course, I knew what was best for them. Well, that is a kind of arrogance that I think we self-styled healers tend to naturally fall into. We know what is best for everyone. We are usually right. But sometimes we need to slow ourselves down and let go of the process. It's not our life to live. It's theirs. And it's sometimes painful to watch. And sometimes the outcomes are not what we'd like to see. But it's still their choice. The best thing you can do is let go and look to your own mental and emotional health. That way you can be there for someone in a very nonjudgmental and loving way when someone finally does come to you.
Peace. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 7:44 AM<<<he needs to feel accepted as he is. It's not up to you to point out that he is hurting, but for him to come to you for love and support when and if he is ever ready for it>>>
i think debbie pretty well hit the nail on the head with her post. our real job as healers is to love, as unconditionally as we can. there is nothing that love cannot heal.
one of the greatest challenges being a healing is overcoming the desire to fix. fixing involves a judgement that something is wrong, but right and wrong are relative, based only on our own perception and perspective.
i think perhaps our real job is to see the inherent perfection in all people, and reflect that back to them, regardless of appearances... -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Thu, September 27, 2007 - 8:02 AMYou got it, Jeff.
A very, very dear friend of mine has an overwhelming urge to fix. And sometimes I just want to vent. I have to stop him from wanting to come up with strategy to solve the problem. Sometimes I say to him, "Don't fix. Just be." And sometimes I mess myself up when I don't follow my own advice.
Reflecting back someone's inherent goodness is the greatest gift we can give them. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Mon, October 1, 2007 - 2:27 PMIt is impossible and in fact irresponsible to force someone to see whatever it is they are denying.
Impossible...is what experience has told me.
Irresponsible...I have realized on my own. Our brains are wired to protect us even from ourselves. It is not fair to take where you're at and try to translate it to signify where some other person "should" be at. My sister is my clearest example. I am sure she was abused and traumatized in the ways that I was in my childhood. I have memories that make her part in the whole mess clear to me. As my healing has progressed I have realized that my sister is not me. She lives and breathes in her own way. Even if it looks painful to me, or "wrong," or "unenlightened..." I just love her for who she is and take the space I need to allow her to be where she's at without trying to change her. She has relationships with our abusers to this day. She chose to entrench deeper while I chose to run screaming for the horizon. We both did it in our own way.
I press on now, and feel lighter since i've accepted our differences. We came from the same place and have wound up worlds apart. l'm always knowing now a'days that I'm prepared to validate for her if she ever wants it; and also knowing that she might not ever want it. That is OK because it's just how it goes. Whether or not I do or will ever see it as ok...
We all are at where we're at. "We" aint' leavin from there until we're good and ready. Regardless of what "you" say. So thanks anyway... -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 7:40 PMYou never know what time it is in some else's life.
~ I forgot who wrote this -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 7:58 PM"You never know what time it is in some else's life."
That is really profound.
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 8:04 PMok I get that it isn't my place to tell anyone what I think they should be dealing with right now ( although I am planning on becoming a pyschologist and then people will hire me to tell them what I think they need to deal with ) .
But doesn't it make it hard to be around someone who is very in denial about something. Their is a lot of alcoholism in my family. We all know this and yet my cousin has just lost his job and gotten his house repossessed because he's not dealing with the fact that he is an alcoholic. And he is an adult, if he loses his house, it's his business. But he is also in danger of losing custody of his son, My aunt and uncle's grandkid. So is it ok for them to say, Ok enough is enough, do what you want but YOU COULD LOSE YOUR SON OVER THIS IF YOU DON'T DEAL WITH IT . And if you lose your son we will have trouble with your estranged ex-wife in trying to see him , and we don't want that.
Or my friend who is unhealthily overweight. It's hard for me to be around him. So I don't have to, that's my choice. Or my very controlling friend. I needed to tell her it was bothering me when she did certain things. It was for my own boundaries to not be violated.
There is a time to step in and say something. Adults have every right to keep hurting themselves with their behaviors . I can't stop them. I can do my best to let go. I may not be able to be around it except for tiny amounts of time. And I may have to accept that this is the way it is right now. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 8:40 PMone of the hardest things i experience in healing work is watching others watch a path that i know is thiers to walk...
i used to have a desire to take it away from them, to rescue, or whatever. ive realized though that that is not my job...
there are reasons that i cannot see or know why things happen, why people need to experience what they do...
i can love them, can even walk with them - though sometimes they need to walk alone, and i need to let them - but we're here for reasons that, by all appearances, look like theyre reaking havok in someones life...
and then i remember my own trip to hell, why i had to go, the perspective that i came away with that i could have gained no other way...
it will be the hardest thing you so as a healer asch... but our job is not to save people from a path they must walk... its to love them while they do walk it, and help reassure them they can can and will survive thier journey through the valley of the shadow... -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:15 PM<and then i remember my own trip to hell, why i had to go, the perspective that i came away with that i could have gained no other way...>
<it will be the hardest thing you so as a healer asch... but our job is not to save people from a path they must walk... its to love them while they do walk it, and help reassure them they can can and will survive thier journey through the valley of the shadow...>
Jeff said this so well, Asch. Life's experience will hopefully teach you more and more and more compasion and patience. Love them where they're at.
I remember several trips to hell, and it wouldn't have mattered who was there or who wasn't. Hell is hell. It's a place you go alone, and hopefully return from more whole than when you entered. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 10:29 PMit's a whole other debate about if therapists jobs are just to listen and be patient. I went through lots of listen therapists and found a couple who challenged me on things and they were better for me. I may become a life coach , which is more about getting up and taking action than just listening,
But anyway , I know I can still love these people and hope they come to me if they need to/want to, because I will still love them then. And it is somewhat about me setting boundaries that are appropritate for me and feeling the sadness that not being able to be close to these people is for me. I know I want them to deal with whatever it is that makes it hard for me to be close to them. But I certainly have things in me ( like controling behaviors) that make it hard to be close to me. So I'll work on me more and hope and pray. I have a strong faith in people.
I want to get myself to a point where, I am strong enough on my path that I can actually offer myself as a co-walker on other people's path. And they have to do it themselves, but they are never alone because I will be with them . it's coming. Someday we will all be co-walkers and no one will be alone. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 2:29 PM<it's a whole other debate about if therapists jobs are just to listen and be patient. I went through lots of listen therapists and found a couple who challenged me on things and they were better for me. I may become a life coach , which is more about getting up and taking action than just listening,>
I didn't mean to imply that therapists should JUST listen. The better ones guide, too, but it's very gentle and very subtle. The first therapist I went to was basically a nice person, but she was also very judgmental. I did some healing with her, but it was very incomplete. She offered some good insights, but she also was capital J judgmental. It was very difficult being with her, espeically when I felt she was wrong but I didn't know how to assert myself. So she helped me but she also kind of screwed me up. She did help me to grow, and I'll always be grateful to her for that, but, boy, the way I also got messed up was very hard to overcome.
And we all have baggage. And so we need to be aware of what is our baggage and maybe projecting onto someone else and what is the other person's baggage.
< I know I want them to deal with whatever it is that makes it hard for me to be close to them.>
Careful here. Can't be about what YOU want. Has to be what THEY want. But, as you say, later in your post, you are pretty self-aware of your own issues. We all want the people in our lives to be functional human beings, but we need to remember that ultimately if they choose to work on something it's for themselves first and others second.
Meanwhile... don't think of good listening as secondary to taking action. Depending on the situation, action might require more process or it might require less process. For me, slow and steady wins the race. For others, might be to decide and do. Each person and each situation will be different. Quick action isn't always the best action. Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, October 17, 2007 - 9:14 PMAgain, there are gentle and subtle therapist and you can spend $100 a week to be listened to for the rest of your life, and if that works for you great.
I would rather go to a therapist and become a therapist that has set goals, like get the job of my dreams, or get to the point where I can have the relationship of my dreams. Different people need different things. Therapists are as different as people are different.
I start school in January so I will be doing a lot of thinking in the coming months about what kind of therapist I want to be. And I know there is a HUGE emphasis on talking about the past , childhood wounds, and listening.
I am not sure that really works for everyone. I want my money's worth and I want to be challenged. Eventually I will need to cater my therapy to what each clinet needs and if they need someone to listen than maybe I can do that for a while. But if someone comes to me with the same things every week and is doing nothing about it, I will have to make a decision : keep listening and hope that very slowly they make some progress or to push them a bit on their issues and get some results. I don't know If I would be doing anyone any favors by letting them go on and on week after week without much movement. -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 7:01 AMAscleigh:
I highly recommend that you seek training that includes gestalt, body psychology and transpersonal therapies. Gestalt is about keeping the client in the present moment and dealing with what presently comes up for them and working with that, rather than sitting with them while they talk endlessly "about" their past issues or future fears. The therapist keeps a keen eye on what physical manifestations of traumas, neuroses, etc. that appear and creatively moves the client to working with them to help ferret out deeply ingrained blockages to their emotional and spiritual growth. Body psychology, as well, is about being present in the body and addressing what the intuitive body-mind of the client needs to deal with. And the transpersonal adds an overlay of awareness of the client's spiiritual well-being to the mix. Good luck with your training.
Namaste,
Allan
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 9:50 PMIt can be hard but I think it's two very different issues: one is taking caring of yourself, expressing your own feelings and needs and the other is feeling you are responsible for someone else's growth. Why is it hard for you to be around him?
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 12:38 AMThere is a time to step in and say something.
~~~~~~~~~~
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink
<something about "free will" or something>
say your piece, be happy that you did & then let go
<do what you are able & then, showing your confidence in your position, allow the other to find their path on their own ~ as is their God given right>
love all-ways,
mem
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 3:01 PM<ok I get that it isn't my place to tell anyone what I think they should be dealing with right now ( although I am planning on becoming a pyschologist and then people will hire me to tell them what I think they need to deal with ) . >
Whoa. First thing a psychologist or any kind of therapist does is LISTEN. Psychologists are more than highly paid two-by-fours. Takes patience and sensitivity.
<But doesn't it make it hard to be around someone who is very in denial about something. >
Depends on whether or not you are willing to accept a person at the place they are RIGHT NOW. If you can't, then best to withdraw until you can.
While your cousin's situation is very sad, it's still his life. This is why people go to Al Anon so they can learn how to cope with the alcoholic. You cannot change an addict/alcoholic's behavior. You can only change your own behavior and hope for the best. And that is true for everyone involved in this situation.
That said, I truly wish your aunt and uncle and your cousin and the grandson the very best. Adults do have to ultimately clean up their own messes.
<There is a time to step in and say something.>
If you mean in terms of establishing boundaries, then, yes, you have every right to do that. I won't say you don't have a right to tell someone what to do, but that will make you seem just as controlling as you are accusing your one friend. It's not really your place, for the most part. You can go ahead and try, but then you might end up being a person to be avoided. The one exception I'd make would be if I felt that someone was truly going to harm themselves or others. Other than that I am resolved to see if people figure things out for themselves. Or if someone actually asks me for help and/or support. Then I will give help and/or support but on my terms.
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 6:50 AMSomething relevant to this thread, I think, that came to me today from the web site DailyOm:
"Interfering -- Lessons Of Reflection
When we care about people, we want to save them from pain by offering them the benefit of our experience. Sometimes we feel like we know what is best for them. Sometimes, like when their safety is involved, we need to step in, but those times are rare. More often we find ourselves becoming frustrated when our close friends or family members do not use our relationship insights or follow our dietary advice, and this is where we find our challenge. We may even find ourselves becoming angry when they choose another path. This strength of feeling is usually a sign that our motivations go beyond merely helping another to indicate that there is a lesson there for us.
First, we need to keep in mind that each of us is on our own path and that we all learn differently. When we trust the universe, we know that there is a higher power at work that knows what is best for our loved one. Since we do not want to deny them experiences of deep feeling that are essential steps in the growth of their spirit, we can instead offer them our counsel. After we have given our gift, it is time to release it, along with our expectations of them and their choices, with love.
Once that is done, we can remind ourselves that our relationships are mirrors that allow us to see ourselves more clearly in the reflection. That is why it is easier for us to see solutions to other people’s problems than to see answers for our own. We can also learn from these experiences when we ask ourselves if we ever do the same thing. Maybe we do not share experiences with relationships, but we do with our finances or our food choices. In being willing to look at ourselves and see why we are being irritated by what other people choose to do with their lives, we can be like an oyster and make irritations into pearls. With these pearls of wisdom, we learn to release the desire for control over others and instead enrich their lives as we enrich our own." -
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Re: What if you know someone is wounded but they seem to be in total denial?
Fri, October 19, 2007 - 7:28 PMEvery relationship is a mirror that can show you some aspects of yourself.....More often than not, the traits that bother you the most in another person are the ones you try hardest to deny in yourself. As you embrace the darker qualities in your own heart, you may find yourself less inclined to judge someone else for expressing them. As you relinquish your judgment and interpretation, you may open to the possibility that there are other qualities that may be attractive in the person, which you have not allowed yourself to see.
Grow Yonger, Live Longer
Deepak Chopra
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