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That good ole thread on ATS keeps going and going; the topic has digressed into a topic on how much the GC certification costs and who will benefit from it.
So I'm curious? How many tribal dancers do we know who are considered professional? Based on the above mentioned thread, the word professional means making your living off it. A hobbyist is someone who has to work another job to support themselves.
So how many professional dancers who make their living based solely on tribal dancing?
If you are in a troupe, is it just your teacher?
If others teach in the studio but are not the directors, do they get paid? Enough to not have to work another job?
Even those who travel teaching workshops on the weekends, are they able to make ends meet without some other kind of income coming in that is not dance related?
Is aspiring to become a professional tribal dancer a practical ambition? Is it only the "rock stars" of this dance able to do it?
I'm am curious because I am still new to all of this and I only know how it works within my troupe. I hear of many caberet dancers are able to, at least that is my understanding. Is it harder for tribal dancers?
Well, we all probably will state Carolena. I'm not aware of anything else she does.
I would assume those in BDSS..but do they do other thing as well?
I would suspect Amy Sigil is, I've seen that girl advertised in workshops everywhere! I'm wondering if she has time to pee!
I'd be very interested to other's thoughts on this subject.
All Love~ JT
So I'm curious? How many tribal dancers do we know who are considered professional? Based on the above mentioned thread, the word professional means making your living off it. A hobbyist is someone who has to work another job to support themselves.
So how many professional dancers who make their living based solely on tribal dancing?
If you are in a troupe, is it just your teacher?
If others teach in the studio but are not the directors, do they get paid? Enough to not have to work another job?
Even those who travel teaching workshops on the weekends, are they able to make ends meet without some other kind of income coming in that is not dance related?
Is aspiring to become a professional tribal dancer a practical ambition? Is it only the "rock stars" of this dance able to do it?
I'm am curious because I am still new to all of this and I only know how it works within my troupe. I hear of many caberet dancers are able to, at least that is my understanding. Is it harder for tribal dancers?
Well, we all probably will state Carolena. I'm not aware of anything else she does.
I would assume those in BDSS..but do they do other thing as well?
I would suspect Amy Sigil is, I've seen that girl advertised in workshops everywhere! I'm wondering if she has time to pee!
I'd be very interested to other's thoughts on this subject.
All Love~ JT
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Mon, August 20, 2007 - 6:01 PMAmy is the only professional of her two troupes (Unmata and Verbatim), if we exclude all other forms of income. If one defines professional as someone paided to bellydance, gigs, not free student shows, then all of the members of both troupes qualify. We have a member who is a College Student (April Rose) and one who works as a freelance massage terapist and clothing designer (Lynsay Brown--she created Unmata's new block pants and cropped hoodies.) So Bellydancing is a huge part of their income.
Me, I can't pay rent with what I make, but I can pay for my habbit...the dancing one that is. I don't teach though, I just entertain.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:35 AMWhat a fascinating subject! Another myth to bust. ;o)
I am not a professional anything by those standards. I don't make a pay check. But I work incredibly hard. I'm laughing at being a house manager hobbyist! I use Outlook, plan projects, manage a budget, etc. All things that people with businesses do. And I would have to say I do my job better than most people who are bringing in cash for it. I've been told by many people who work in the outside world that I am a management genius (but I only use my powers for good... LOL). My dh has the mad skillz people pay top dollar for, so we figure it's better for him to spend as little time as possible making as much as possible and I manage the income. Best of both worlds, really. He is currently pursuing certification in integral psychology and has plans to use that later when he's done squeezing the IT industry [g].
That said, my current dream-plan is to take what is happening in the studio now and build on it and see where it takes me and as many other people as possible... [insert diabolical laugh here]
So, I am not a professional dancer. And I doubt I will ever be a professional anything by the standards listed above. My life goal isn't to pursue that kind of thing. I'd prefer to communally support my family with numerous endeavors instead of just one thing.
I do intend to do a General Skills Intensive and would love teacher training so I can lead my tribe better. But I seriously doubt that will ever return itself in cash directly. I find these things are more valuable to me personally because they expand my awareness in so many ways and that is the return I'm looking for. I probably won't do it for at least another year. We are a cash based household, so I will have to save for it.
It is my impression that there are several troupes and individuals that make a significant amount of their income belly dancing. However, bringing it in as the sole provider, hmmm. Hard to say.
My answer to your direct question about how many pro dancers making their living on tribal dancing is "I can't answer that." I don't have the data. My guesses would be:
Carolena Nericcio (FCBD)
Kajira Djoumahna (BSBD)
Paulette Rees-Denis (GC)
Jill Parker (Ultra Gypsy)
Rachel Brice (Rachel Brice ;o)
Zoe Jakes (Indigo)
Mardi Love (Indigo)
Sharon Kihara (Indigo)
Amy Sigil (UNMATA)
Megha Gavin (PURA & Devyani)
Frederique (Frederique)
Christine Hamer (Zafira)
Olivia Kissel (Zafira)
Maria Hamer (Zafira)
Tamara Nelson (Zafira)
Sharon Moore (inFusion)
Ali Arnold (n.o.madic)
Andrea Makris (Underbelly)
Trisnasari (Underbelly)
Sera (Solstice Dance Ensemble)
Kendra (Hands of Kali)
Off the top of my head. All well known. And I know I'm leaving out lots of people. I am sure there are plenty of local celebrities who make their living off of bellydance. However, to my best knowledge, none of the bellydance divas in our community make their living solely off of bellydancing. Yet I would definitely call them professionals. No one in Austin makes their living off of Tribal.
And I do wonder if the GSI and the certifications other groups and individuals do are attended mostly by hobbyists or are there more pros?
Here's our household definition of professional: a person who is expert at his or her work (or) an authority qualified to teach apprentices.
I *love* this discussion! Well done!
Andrea. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:39 AMI knew I left out someone I wanted to include on my very incomplete list...
Zi'Ah Ali from Awalim
:).
Andrea.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:57 AMI have always thought of a professional is someone who has a skill level compentent enough to charge money for their services.
When Benu performs..they get paid. The money goes to the studio and to the troupe fund. We do not get paid individually outright unless it's a special situation which I have been paid for. So is that a professional troupe? Does that make me a professional dancer?
The whole set up of business in bellydance seems to work on a different system than other business and I'm learning.
It was never my intention to become a professional. I just started taking classes and several years later find all my free time consumed in everything bellydance. My dream is to have my own business one day..a small one and I would love to manage a chain of small business not large big box corporations (they pay very well though). The word hobbyists bothers me. I consider my little sides interests such as research and painting little wood pieces and trying to make anything a hobby.
So I somehow feel I'm in between. Not a hobbyists but not quite a professional.
I also don't believe you have to earn your income solely of that profession.
Many troupe directors could say they are professionals and earn their income solely based on dancing but most of them rely on sales of merchandise in their studio or at workshops to supplement their income.
Being a professional bellydancer, especially the ones the travel everywhere..or the ones that tour with BDSS..it seems like a tough life to me in some ways. Leaving my daughter when I aspire to be a very hands on mommy would be tough. I've seen the Zafira girls travel with their kids and I find that so inspiring that they include their family. I tend to see children excluded from all events and classes.
I have no idea where I am going with this..I am just running my mouth..LOL
Would you consider yourself a hobbyist or an aspiring professional..or you are professional? -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 2:39 PM"The word hobbyists bothers me. I consider my little sides interests such as research and painting little wood pieces and trying to make anything a hobby." LOL!
I do not call myself a hobbyist. I went from student to student troupe to "Studio Troupe".
I consider Verbatim my second job, a minimium wage second job, but the job I like best. I work very hard in classes and rehershals to get paid $12-$60 (with tips and rate) for a quater hour set, plus two hour prep and drive time, once or twice a week. I say if a person is paid to perform they are a professional entertainer.
I see Andreas list above as innovators of the field. Specialists and leaders in the world of perfomace art entertainment.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Thu, August 30, 2007 - 9:32 AMJust because I have to add my opinion, hobbyist refers to someone who pursues a hobby. A hobby is an interest that they pursue in their free time and enjoy greatly, but it's not an integral part of their lives. I've known plenty of hobby dancers. They take a class for a session or two, drop it for a while, do something else, come back, but they never really miss it. It's just something they do and have a little fun with. It's like people who go to the gym. They're not professional...er...gym goers? But they enjoy going, so they keep going back. I think there's a huge difference between a hobbyist and one on the road to professionalism. For example, though I've performed (though only at unpaid venues like shows after workshops and haflas) I don't consider myself a professional. Actually, I consider myself more an apprentice because I would like working towards being a professional. I've wanted to be a professional dancer since I was old enough to know that people made a career of dance. And while it may be MY soul source of income, it certainly wouldn't be my family's. I only get that advantage because I'm a stay at home mom right now. Still, there is a lot of room for professionalism even if every cent you make gets recycled right back into your troupe or studio. After all, you don't have to make money to be a professional. That's just a nice added benefit. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Thu, September 6, 2007 - 6:10 PMHow about Journeymen? Very few artists make a living off thier Art. And very few Artists become Masters, but all of us are Journeymen, or apprentices. I am a Master of Benu's Style of Dance, but I will always be a Journeyman of Improvisational Tribal Style dance, because the dance is always evolving, as is Benu.
Just some of my thoughts. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:21 AMWell, there are two ways of looking at this. Is a master jeweler suddenly no longer in mastery of their art because new technologies and skills are created? I don't think master means that you've learned everything there is to learn. Mastery simply means that you know enough that you can take on an apprentice, ie, teach what you've learned, developed, and continue to develop. Take a master weapon smith. Just because he's a master at his art doesn't mean he knows how to make a katana. No one will ever master all of the facets of ITS, but that doesn't mean they can't be considered a master of their art.
I guess the way we have to look at ITS like calling a dog a dog. There are many kinds of dogs, but they're all still dogs. There are many kinds of ITS, but it's all ITS. I mean, technically ATS would be a faction of ITS since it's an improvised tribal style dance.
I guess it's really just a matter of how you determine mastery.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Thu, September 13, 2007 - 1:25 PMJourneyman.... or craftswoman.
I like your philosophy. Simply, but beautifully, stated.
Andrea. :)
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 11:14 AMI do have a day job, but am honored to be on such a list!
And yes, I do consider myself a professional.
love.
ali
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 5:32 AMI think that the Zafira dancers all have day jobs of some sort from what I understand. I know Olivia is an anthropologist, and Christine is involved with (runs?) a clothing line called Culture Shop along with her husband, I think.
I could be wrong of course.
Not that they are not absolutely fabulous and awesome, but it's kind of cool that they can be that awesome even with jobs. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 7:17 AMActually, I think you have the point clearly stated...
They are absolutely fabulous and awesome and they have two professions (or more).
I think it's limiting ourselves to try to fit ourselves in one definition and that's all we are. In order to have balance, the artist and the scientist (and all the other roles we have) need to have places to regularly come out and play in our lives. To expect or assume there is one livelihood that will address all of that is fanciful IMO. And to undervalue one over the other because it makes less money is sad to me. Money is something we can count, but contentedness is something we all value highly too.
Andrea.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 11:54 AMSome more "purely bellydancers":
SriTarasita of Rakadu Gypsy in Lexington, KY
Heather Stants of Urban Tribal
Rose Harden of Barbary Coast Shakedown and Ultra Gypsy
Jill Parker of BCS and Ultra Gypsy
Currently, all my living expenses are made by teaching bellydance, but I'm in professional school so my tuition is covered by loans. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 2:56 PMMira Betts of Barbary Coast Shakedown as well?
Cera of Damage Control is a Pro dancer and pilates instructor. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 6:06 AM"Mira Betts of Barbary Coast Shakedown as well? "
Actually-- I hope she wont mind me saying this for her, but Mira holds other paying day jobs as well.
I think that to be SOLELY a professional tribal dancer you have multiple paying performance gigs (like Zoe, with Yard Dogs Road Show and BDSS, as well as her own touring and workshops) and / or a home studio that generate revenue as well.
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, August 21, 2007 - 5:01 PMI think a better wat to ask, because what a "professional" is will never be agreed on, but just to state... who makes their living off Tribal Style dance....
The word professional is always debated on my DJ sites... am I a professional just because it is what I do full time? It is my job? Am I a professional just because I get paid?
Can I be a "part-time" professional? I get paid for DJing, but have a full time job?
LOL
When it comes to talks like this and the one about the publics idea of what a DJ and a BellyDancer are.. Kajira and I notice at how close our two job are so much the same. :) -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Thu, August 23, 2007 - 10:56 PMI agree with you right there! "Professional" is such a convoluted term these days. I remember being introduce to someone as "This is Menuet, she's a professional voice actor. You ought to work with her." Professional? I never thought of it before.
And..then it gets odd. Am I only a professional because I make a living off of voice-overs and voice-acting? If that's the case then I am not a professional. Or...is the fact I've done some animations, sketches, broadcasts, commercials and radio shows make me a professional?
I think you get where I am going with that! :) I think professional can be a term that gets a little lost in translation in many cases. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Fri, August 24, 2007 - 9:07 AMpro·fes·sion·al (prə-fěsh'ə-nəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.
Menuet..I'd say you are a professional based on the defination above. I don't know much about voice-overs and voice acting but I think you'd have to have some skill and talent to be able to do and get paid for it. I agree the term is got lost in translation based on the thread I mentioned. Your post gave me a lot to think about though..Still thinking...
Lil April..I love your point of view as well! We could all be considered professionals if we get paid..even if it is a low paying job at times. The list we brought up are innovators and people who inspire us!
You all have given me so much to think about. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 10:51 PMWow, even the dictionary uses it in overlapping meanings. There is such a slight difference between tha adj. "professional writer" and the noun use of "a person following a profession..." Thanks for looking it up J.T. -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Sat, April 26, 2008 - 10:37 AMI personally am able to make my living as an "entertainer". It was the most appropriate, all encompassing word for all the "jobs" that I do and it made more sense on my tax forms! Occupation: entertainer.
My day job, which I don't consider a job at all, is playing piano for a children's theatre company, 5 days a week during the school year, summer's off. Other jobs that I do thru-out the year are christmas caroling (15 years straight, avg. $3000 Dec. alone), teaching ATS, performing at events with my ATS duo, teaching workshops, playing odd piano gigs for weddings, theatre. All my jobs since 1990 have been in the arts. I've been able to make my living solely by that. If I were to make my living by doing just one of these jobs, i.e. tribal bellydancing......I think I would go nuts! I need diversity, variety, change it up even tho that makes me a jack of all trades, master of none! It still makes my life so much more interesting! -
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Re: Professional Tribal Dancers
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:37 PM"jack of all trades, master of none"
That's me too! I teach weekly classes, regional workshops, sponsor, vend, perform, work for/book other talent all related to belly dance. I have been doing most of these things as a "day job" for the last three years now; some aspects longer, some shorter time frame. Life is so good. I am really happy doing what I do.
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