parabler
2/11/2002 3:19 PM 1 out of 19

there exists within the world religions some commonalities which i think are very interesting.

to poll the room, how many people are familiar with more than half a dozen of teh worlds religious systems?

one? Two? Three, four? Five? Ten?

I have had a lot of time to study the worlds religions and there is one thing that i notice more and more.

Theres dogma; ideas of a purely political nature really that get inserted into religion, and then theres the shared social experience of spiritual reality.

I would be interested in discussing some of the underlying untitive prnciples, things which many different religions share in common.





LadyBelle
2/11/2002 3:31 PM 2 out of 19

Are you proposing that dogma and society are unitive principles within individual religions that were created only to give an illusion of seperateness when the belief systems themselves are actually very similar?

I would say this is true.



dtruth08
2/11/2002 3:46 PM 3 out of 19

I'm also seeing a lot of commonalities, even in what is just a rudimentary understanding of about four religions plus Christianity, which I believe I have more than a rudimentary understanding of. What I've found is that the further down I dig into Christianity, particularly into the texts the Bible is composed of, the more the commonalities have become ever clearer to me.

It seems to me that what we are seeing in the different belief systems comes about by the different personalities and life experiences that go into the constituency of the those systems. Not everyone will desribe the same thing the same way. The problem, as I see it, comes when people focus more on the description than on what is being described.

- Doug



EdGreene
2/11/2002 6:14 PM 4 out of 19

"There is a thin live wire of truth in all religions, insulated by a thick layer of dogma". Emma Curtis Hopkins



Hatman
2/11/2002 9:22 PM 5 out of 19

parabler-
I have made the observation before that mystics of all of the religions that have sought God have had nearly-identical experiences of "All that is". It is the theologians, those who insist on having words to define the experience(and try to limit those who are "allowed" to have it), which have caused most of the trouble.
With good will to all-

Hatman



LadyBelle
2/12/2002 11:39 AM 6 out of 19

I'm actually glad that parabler brought up the idea not just the idea of "dogma", but also the idea of the societal structures within religions and their power to cause seperation between religions.

I have grown discouraged lately when I see the motivations that many people have regarding their belief systems, and the motivations they have for participating in them. It appears that, a lot of times, it is all about ego and self-interest: they shop around among different belief systems to see what they can "get the most out of", rather than consider what system will make the most demands of THEM. And one of the shallowest and most destructive of all of these considerations, IMHO, is the societal aspects of "joining" a group--the idea of "belonging". While the concept of belonging to a society is a natural human need, the truth of it is that, most of the time, this need is fulfilled by excluding others. If you belong to a group, there is the temptation to think of everyone OUTSIDE that group as "others". It sets up an exclusivity and a seperation that is insidious, because it uses a method that FEELS good and fulfills this human need. The majority of human beings cannot "belong" to anything without a certain smug exclusion of others.



EdGreene
2/12/2002 12:18 PM 7 out of 19

Greetings!

LadyBelle - Good post. That's why I only join groups who welcome everyone. (Just as they are).

Peace to All, Ed



parabler
2/13/2002 3:18 PM 8 out of 19

hey ladybelle.
ps this is pan.

interesting thoughts.

hey hatman; others...


The first underlying unitive principle of religion is that there is a spiritual level to reality.

This is so basic that some people miss it.

But think about it, take nothing for granted for a moment. The very fact that there is such a thing as religion is predicated on the idea that there is a spiritual level of reality. Thus, this is one thing that all religions can be seen to be in agreement on. All of them.

The idea of soul, of spirit. The idea of "God". These ideas are nearly universal. Even the shintoists believe more or less in pure underlying forces of nature. (as i understand it.)

Within the judaic religion and behind it in the judaic mysticism known as Qaballah is a rich and complete shamanism.

What is shamanism? There are many different definitions, but I tend to define shamanism as the belief in other levels of reality and other levels of self and practices which are intended to enable the individual to access other levels of reality and other levels of self.

Shamanism underlies most religions in the world, and when we start talking about religion in practical application, we see that it doesn't matter who is doing the singing, the dancing, the chanting, the manipulations of symbols and the inductions into trance states. It all looks the same after a little bit of adjustment.

For instance, While the native americans have a four quarter elemental and directional correspondence that starts with the north, wiccans have one that starts in the east and the qaballists one as well.

It is my belief that these similarities are more than mere coincidence. I think when you find an idea that exists in hundreds of cultures all over the world (yes in slightly different forms, but thats part of the fun.)You have to look at that idea as being more than an ideal, but in all probability, a real description of some aspect of reality that has merely been noticed by different peoples in different times.




parabler
2/13/2002 3:24 PM 9 out of 19

ladybelle, you talk about what anthropologists call "ethnocentrism". To some degree or another, every culture is ethnocentric, just as every individual has an ego. Yet, just as with ego, it is in the long run much better for us to let go of our differences and to join the human community, to be loved and supported by others that we are not better nor worse than.

In the same way, it is better for us in the long run if we can let go of societies and cultures and religions as being better or worse and instead, simply draw from them all.





LadyBelle
2/13/2002 9:01 PM 10 out of 19

Yes, Sweetie--I know it was you!

Do you think that this ethnocentricity is a critical PART of this human need to feel belonging, or do you think that man can, in general, feel that belonging without the need to exclude?

I mean, we ALL belong to the human race. But it is rare that the recognition of that is sufficient to give the satisfactory sense of belonging that the joining of an exclusive sub-group does.



Hatman
2/14/2002 12:11 AM 11 out of 19

ladybelle-
An astute observation, as usual! 8^)
'pan, I believe that the human race loves to be appreciated, to feel "special", and this ego-craving is often temporarily ameliorated by the assumption of a "one-up, one-down" mentality. Who appreciates trees on the East Coast? We have an abundance.

When folks begin to see beauty everywhere, and draw their energy and power from this simple recognition, then they have begun to know true wisdom and true power, and---dare I say it, true love? How can we drop our little ego-stroking needs. I will confess, I often visit threads I have posted to just to see if any will appreciate what I had to say, and I am often disappointed(although I am not sure that this is the right word in this context) when I am not at least acknowledged---conversely, I feel restored and invigorated when something I have said inspires or encourages or uplifts someone, and they mention it. It has me examining my motives, and keeping me more honest with myself.

As far as the "underlying unitive principle", I would say that this is the spirit of Love, which has, as part of its wholeness, both Power and Wisdom---each of which have many facets. When once we can recognize and appreciate the Spiritual source of each living being, we can ignore the surface manifestations, and see the true heart, and what it desires---which, I believe, are three things: to feel needed, useful, and appreciated. Help another to feel these three things, consciously or subconsciously, and you will reach their true being, IMHO.

With good will to all-

Hatman



parabler
2/14/2002 5:52 PM 12 out of 19

ego and ethnocentrism are reflections of the law of the jungle...part of our animal instinct gone slightly awry.

The human experience is all about owning the reality that we are at least in part factually animals living in human animal bodies. It is denial and supression of this simple truth that leads to those animal urges ruling over us instead of us overcoming that side of ourselves with love and compassion.

Just as we are animals on the one level we are also angels on the other. We can choose to draw from the angelic side of our nature and this is the course that human social evolution will take sooner or later.

I think it is possible for us to overcome ethnocentrism but like so many other parts of the shadow, only after we have fully owned and understood it within ourselves.

Thats a very difficult proposition because most people won't face their own shadow...especially in our culture.

But it can happen and is happening and i have high hopes for that process.




parabler
2/14/2002 5:55 PM 13 out of 19

thanks hatman thats good advice. I tend to come from the sledgehammer school of personal revelation and of course that sets things off on the wrong foot sometimes.

The problem that i see is that most people are embedded neck deep in the problem; giving them positive energy is great but if you do nothing to deal with the negative then i think things can get lost in warm fuzzies without right action...where the new age movement is right now.

Getting people to identify with you is a diplomats first step and the one i guess i usually skip. Getting people to identify with their own shadows is the important step that comes after.




parabler
2/14/2002 6:04 PM 14 out of 19

The need to "exclude" is part of the base animal instinct and is hard wired into the pack social structure instinct which is what gets us looped time after time.

All religions really exist to tell us to quit behaving like dogs trying to establish pecking orders and to start behaving like commnities...cooperation instead of competition.

Unfortunately, religions get hijincked by alpha dominance trippers and egotists, and thats the real doorway where everything goes wrong. The moment you have a "pope" or somebody "in charge" you have just delineated a hival pack with one alpha and a whole bunch of betas. The subliminal need to fullfill the whole thing and generate omegas always brings the fruit of ethnocentrism and genocide. In order for the pack to be "on top" something somewhere has got to pay the price of being on the bottom.

The solution is to realize that all authority and all pack structures are human animal instincts; there is no such thing as divine authority; thats the big lie.
Yshua more or less told us that and more; we are all children of god and lest ye become as children ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven and so forth.

Its amazing how the message is so simple; love each other and drop all of those insane social distinctions,
and then how the story of the presentation of those truths becomes hijacked again by the animal darkness and turned into a sideshow.

Thats a real pattern that we have to overcome. When we talk about the underlying unitive principles, one thing we have to see is that there are underlying disunitive principles; the reasons why humans get into conflict with each other are basicly universal; and thus the angelic solutions to these problems are also universal.




LadyBelle
2/14/2002 9:56 PM 15 out of 19

Pan...

Sometimes you amaze me.

I think I'm going to print that last paragraph and tack it to my forehead! :)



Hatman
2/15/2002 1:45 AM 16 out of 19

pan-
OK, lemme see if I am understanding the other side of the yin-yang, the underlying disunitive principles: Doesn't it really boil down to ego?

From the practice of mindfulness(which I describe as being aware of, monitoring, and questioning feelings, especially anger, when they come up), I am answering my "whys?". What I am discovering is this:(with the help of several books, the latest and most helpful so far being "I come as a brother") that Love can expand to include and radiate thru all of the "shadow" self. For example: something triggers an anger reaction. I question, "Why am I feeling anger?" My higher self usually reveals some fear. I ask, "Why am I feeling this fear?", and surround the entire area with Love and acceptance. This releases its hold over me. You may note that this is not repression or denial, but acceptance. When the Light comes in its radiant fullness, shadow no longer has meaning except to those who feed its power by either their ego-desires or their lack of fear-understanding.

Ladybelle-
Hi! 8^)
I just wanted to thank you for the "beachball" analogy you used over on the "emotions" thread. It came in right handy tonight when some unexpected offense was taken, and helped to illuminate the understanding of the person taking offense. And also for coming to SwissCelt's defense over on the Faith and Life board, although, from the unfortunate knee-jerk reaction to your self-identification as a pagan, most of your loving intent seems to have been casually dismissed. I like it though, when a non-Christian shows more love and acceptance that one who claims Christ, but doesn't obey Him. Thanks for your integrity. SwissCelt has taken "witch" off of his profile now, and though I doubt its immediate efficacy, perhaps in 6 months or so, he will be able to get thru without having to go thru, if you know what I mean.

With good will to all-

Hatman

LadyBelle
2/15/2002 10:24 AM 17 out of 19

Hatman, thank you...

And if you will notice--I have taken these labels off myself in my profile as well. I have Doug to thank for that, actually--because although I have not changed in my own beliefs, I was finding that the label and the interpretation of it was really causing more confusion and contention than was really necessary.

And that may be the point of this thread here--the concept that perhaps there are some of us who have reached the stage in our own spiritual path where the idea of seperateness and identification is less important than the idea that the world has big jobs for us that require more unity than has ever been asked of us before.

I know who I am, and I know what I am--and there is no need for me to attempt to define that by drawing lines between us that are not required and that only serve to disrupt the process of unifying.

Hatman--you have been an enormous blessing to me, and if I could help by passing you the beach ball when it was needed...I am grateful for the opportunity!



parabler
2/17/2002 11:14 PM 18 out of 19

thanks ladybelle.

by the way, if you are interested, i am fully demonstrating to any paying attention that the "wicca" area is actually anti wiccan.

I wouldn't advise getting into it, i have all my aces stacked right where i need them and their chief methodology is insults and distractions...to easy to get drawn into the game.

But i think it is something others should bear witness to.

Hatman; ego...



parabler
2/17/2002 11:20 PM 19 out of 19

this thread kind of seems to have lost its direction to me a bit. I want to focus on the positive here.

It is the involvement of the egos of various people that has derailed some religiuous movements in the past. Yshuas movement in particular. This guy said peace, love, light, and down with negative hierarchies.

what they made up afterward was war, genocide, satan, and the biggest negative hierarchy ever.

The underlying truths in the movement are the same truths that are true also in other religions. The falsehoods stand out precisely because they don't have an analog in shamanic religions elsewhere.

Yshua was by definition a shaman. And i think thats what i am trying to get to here. Shamanism and spiritualism are the core underlying principles of any given religion, and more or less, those principles are the same no matter what religion is presenting them. Ethnocentrism and ego come along however and make a bunch of differences and thats the problem area.